I have a stunning toy breed bitch that is Kc reg. I've been mulling over the pros and cons of breeding her for a while but am quite confused by the whole "ethical breeding" idea. I love the idea of having the experience of raising pups with Lottie and she has such a calm and docile temperament. When we had an 8 week kitten she "adopted" him and looked after him like her own letting him suckle and cleaning his ears (was rather odd when the kitten ended up bigger than her) so  I think she could be a good mother. But is there really such a thing as ethical breeding? Even if your not breeding for financial reasons how do you justify breeding a dog.
If I do breed Lottie I want to do it the right way - she is primarily a pet dog so her health and happiness is the most important thing to me.

Any more experienced opinions would be grateful

Firstly read Should I breed from my bitch ?

If we didn't have reputable breeders, breeding really great quality dogs, quality in respect of conformation, temperament and health and breed type - what would we be left with?

The difficulty is of course, no one thinks or wants to admit, that they are NOT a great breeder... so thats something you have to figure out for yourself.

There are a couple of breeds that are not easy when it comes to whelping, and you have chosen one of them.

You ask for pros and cons.  Although there are no compulsory health tests, I would say that, to be responsible, it is advisable to have heart, eye and patella checks frst.

Also, how old is she?  This breed needs to be mated on her second season.  Anyone mating a 3 year old maiden will most certainly have a lot of difficulties.  I have my long coats spayed at 4 years.

Do you have a minimum of £1,000 saved for an emergency, out of hours C-section?  Would you recognise inertia and get to the vet in time?  Have you ever whelped a bitch before?  Because it is nothing like whelping a shepherd or a dane.

Have you studied and read, and read, and read again The Book of the Bitch?  I too love the idea of rearing a litter, but it is not easy, and you need to take weeks off work to stay with your bitch.  You say that the kitten was bigger than your girl.  Is her pelvis actually wide enough to self whelp (assuming all goes well and she doesn't have inertia.)

Yes, I love rearing litters, but it can end in heartbreak.

From one who knows.

Even if your not breeding for financial reasons how do you justify breeding a dog.

You do it to bring something to the breed. To make use of a bitch/dog that has qualities that the breed needs. That usually means breeding only from bitches that have done well in the show ring (or in different forms of working, depending on breed) and so have proved themselves as good examples of their breed. We all think our own dogs are stunning, but it's not always the case. Last weekend we were showing some of our dogs and before us in the ring were Pomeranians. What pretty little dogs. I've just tonight been to training classes and there was a pet Pomeranian there. It was as different to the ones at the show as to be two different breeds. It was much too big, had a too long face, the coat wasn't right ec. Even small faults can over time change the entire look of a breed if dogs with them are bred from, which is why you need the independent assessment of not one but several show judges before deciding whether a bitch is good enough to breed from. Then you find the best dog possible for her, even if he is hundreds of miles away.

You're doing exactly the right thing by asking on here. We need ethical dog breeders, so well done for thinking about that. As others have said, you want to get unbiaised opinions on whether your girl is a sufficiently good representation of the breed, and the easiest way to do that is by showing her. Then consider her age, whether she is too old or too young. And whether your breed has particular health problems you need to screen for - don't just get a vet check, they usually don't know anything about the particular breeds. Get a copy of 'The Book of the Bitch' which lists the pros and cons, takes you through the process of mating, whelping, rearing, and finding homes, and gives some ideas about things that can go wrong. And have lots of money - ethical breeders spend money when breeding, we don't make it! :-)

In addition to all the above comments ... it's not only money for possible c-sections, there may be complications, a simple infection may lead to expensive (well over £1,000) surgery and after care, taking apart the fact that going into such surgery the outcome may not be known, ie, will your bitch live or die? Wont happen you may think ... I can assure you it can and it does. I know from experience - I can tell you it is not easy waiting for your bitch whilst undergoing life saving surgery :( But it's not even large sums of money for emergencies, one of my girls has had 2 litters and each time after delivering her pups myself and mentor have felt there was another pup inside - both times a trip to the vets resulting in x-rays to double check (even vet thought there was another pup - probably just gas ;-) ) and on both occasions there was no pup ... but it cost over £100 for the first trip on a Saturday morning, the 2nd time was easily doubled as it was out of hours. Bitches like to give birth at night time, Saturday evenings are good oh, and Bank Holidays, but wo betide a Christmas or New Year's Day whelping ... those are the times when the bills increase quite a bit if vet assistance required! £££££££££s!

Time - you need to be with your bitch easily a week prior to whelping (may arrive early) and until the last puppy leaves home. If you are aiming to be an ethical breeder then that must also apply to the rearing of the puppies. Puppies take a lot of rearing if they are to move to their new homes with ease and are reared to enable them to fit into our very strange society, able to cope with all the pressures and challenges it will throw at them, and for them to grow into well balanced adults.

How will you feel about vetting potential owners? Not an easy task. Do not rely on friends and relatives when they say "oh we'll have a pup" ... usually they wont when the time comes. You need honest, committed, 'in it for the full term' type homes lined up, even before a mating takes place.

I wont deny, raising a litter of puppies is fabulous - for me it is and for most of the people here on CD. But, there are plenty of people who try it and don't like it ... some are those who have gone into it for the wrong reasons, thinking it would be a doddle, and there are those who just don't want to repeat the experience due to the lack of sleep, the worry and stress, the time and financial commitment - even when things go absolutely right it is still very expensive raising a litter of puppies.

Health tests are a must, irrespective of whether there are set tests for your breed. I think the health tests on my bitches have cost in excess of £600 each, only a couple of those were advised. Ethical means producing the very best that you can in terms of health, there are no guarantees after all dogs are living creatures, but you need to ensure that you are breeding as fit, healthy pups as you possibly can, it's your responsibility to future owners.

Talking of responsibility. Circumstances can and do change, for whatever reason. Illness, even death. Would you and could you commit to taking one of your pups back should circumstances require? I don't mean at 6 or 8 months, I mean at 12, 14 or even 16 years of age? I have a number of my pups willed to me. My commitment to owners is that I will have the pup back, at any age. I don't expect to get pups back because someone gets 'bored' with it, I know I haven't got those types of owners (a full vetting procedure, with assistance from someone else to ensure that I don't get it wrong :-O ) but things do happen, sadly.

I helped my breeder friend and mentor rear 11 litters over a number of years before I bred my own. I think it would be fair to say that I had a whole lot more experience than most going into breeding their first litter. I can tell you though that the worry of having my first litter was not diminished by all this experience, it's a whole different ball game when it's one of your own girlies.

I've never made any money from a litter of puppies. I don't see how you can if done correctly putting in the time and commitment to health testing, unless you are rearing a breed that produces huge numbers of pups. My breed average is 5-6 ... my pups have been very heavily subsidised. At best I think you can hope to cover your costs.

If you are absolutely determined then I'd be seeking to discuss the matter with the breeder of Lottie, if they were a reputable/ethical/responsible breeder, gaining their assistance would be invaluable to you, even if just to advise on a suitable sire.

>I have a stunning toy breed bitch

How do you know she is 'stunning'?  Everyone/many think their own dogs are 'stunning' - but until and unless they've been proven to be so in competition (shows) against others, you simply can't make that claim.

>she is primarily a pet dog so her health and happiness is the most important thing to me.

Following that logic then, as a potential puppy buyer I would expect you to extend that to her prospective babies.
So my logic would be, only if you agree and are able to undertake all responsibility for ensuring their future health and happiness would I take you to be an 'ethical' breeder.

Like with your own girl this would then be a lifetime commitment.
So as the article that Daisy has linked to states, can you guarantee the money and time will still be available months or years down the line should a problem occur with any one (or more!) of the pups??

The article states an ethical breeder should be able to take a pup back even if the timing is not ideal...
Can you honestly guarantee that your financial or home situation will always be conducive to this? Because that is a very hard call to make!

Especially in today's climate (very different to if this was a litter bred 5 or more years ago!) because now the Country sits on the brink of a triple dip recession, cost of living is rising, fuel and now even water bills, major high street retailers are going under.... And as austerity kicks in sadly there is a rise in 'pet' breeding by some in the mistaken view it would raise them some money ( I am NOT saying this is you) but it WILL impact you because the free ads and puppy sites are FLOODED with unregistered cheap puppies!!... So up against that, can you really garuantee homes for all your pups against such competition especially if your dog is not from sought after or award winning lines.... What sets you apart??

Breed and general dog rescues are all full to bursting ( as several threads running on this Forum show.. Getting a dog into a rescue now is difficult!) in my breed our Rescue has to regularly close it's doors!

I think you should think long and hard about the future of the puppies you bring into the world you are their Guardian as much as your Bitch's.
While they are little and cute you will have plenty of people say they will have one, so even if you believe all pups will have good forever homes.... Can you and those owners garuantee that!?.... Just take a look at the free ads and the ' e puppy' type websites and see just how many older puppies and dogs are on there ALL of them with the tag lines ' no fault of their own' we are
- moving house
- having/ had a baby
- not getting with my other dog
An endless list of reasons that I'm sure weren't imagined or admitted to when pup was bought!

Think long and hard..... For the puppies sakes.

If your "stunning toy bitch" is a high profile breed like a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel or Pug for example, be ready with a big wad of money in case any puppy buyer decides to sue you if their dog develops an inherited disease.........ONE FOR WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE a specialist certificate of clearance for both parents.

Buyers are pretty sure of their " rights" these days.

I also think its worth bearing in mind now, we are coming VERY close to the day when insurers will NOT cover conditions which the breeder could have tested for (and thats likely to be 'could have' and not 'should have according to the KC or the breed clubs recommendations')... so if there is a health test out there, get it done. If a buyer gets a pup from you and it turns out ot have an inherited condition you could have tested for, but didn't, and they refuse to cover the bill, then the buyer would have good grounds to sue the breeder!

This is a thread you really should read, as to what can happen years later, when life changes/circumstances make your responsibilities very inconvenient/difficult, not to mention financially difficult: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/139992.html