I noticed in another thread that various people were upset to see rescues from Romania and other places on the Oldies Club website. I fell in love with one of those dogs, but my situation at present doesnt suit for me to have her or I would. Anyway, I just wanted to say this....yes we have plenty of dogs in need of homes in the UK, BUT if you look at the situation of these dogs I at least, hand on heart could not ever wish to turn them away. These are very rehomeable dogs, and not a staff amongst them, but they have had just about the worst life imagineable. If a rescue organisation wishes to set up to help these dogs, and they can raise the funds, and can find loving homes for them who are we to say they shouldn't?

I don't want a staff and never would, lovely as they may be, and so many people now are put off many rescue centres because that is all that's on offer half the time, yet these beautiful poor dogs are desperate for a loving home. I say good luck to them. In the meantime, it is up to the rest of us to try and stop overbreeding dogs that end up being unwanted and trying to sort out legislation to stop puppy farmers and pet shops.

Because of those comments, and the dog I fell for, I looked at SAFE rescues website, ended up giving them a donation and cried eyes out.

Well just wanted to get that off my chest. Not looking for agreement.  

I have to agree with you ChinaBlue.  I know someone who runs a rescue charity here but she has now got involved with a Romanian one too.  The situation over there is truly dreadful, and it´s made ten times worse by the appalling weather they have in the winter.  And the English aren´t the only ones to want to help.  The Germans and Scandinavians do too (and they also help some of the Spanish charities).  I wouldn´t wish the the conditions the Romanian stray dogs have on my worst enemy (and that´s saying something!).

Then the situation needs sorting over there, by education, not  bringign the problem here, and at the same time attacking all breeding here, which many pro rescue groups seem to do.  There seems to be no acceptance of good breeding practice, and good responsible breeders.

The strays need rounding up and neutering thereby stopping the population growing.  A bit like with feral cat colonies here.

Get the local vet schools to offer free nuetering to the public as so many dogs are free range/latchkey, neutering is the only viable option.

How can the answer be to stop breeding here, yet take in the irresponsible overbreeding and cruelty from elsewhere?

You may not want a staff (neither would I, though the Huskly crosses are now the dogs found in rescue) but others prefer a purpose bred puppy, a clean page if you like, preferably from caring breeders who have put theie all into breeidng the dogs with the most chance of producing healthy sound in body and mind offspring.

Brainless
In an ideal world, sorting the problem by education would be the solution - however, you must perhaps look at the mindset of the people you are dealing with who believe it is quite acceptable to brutalise animals routinely. Good luck with that education programme. Of course these rescue groups are carrying out spay and neuter programmes, but to simply put the dogs back on the streets still leaves them open to the most appalling cruelty, starvation, freezing to death etc. You cannot equate it to how we would deal with the situation here.  The governments idea of controlling the population is to round them up and beat them to death. They are not latchkey dogs......they are unwanted dogs. Dogs 'owned' are not the problem. It will be a very long term project to achieve any change in the mindset of a whole nation. 
I did not say that stopping breeding here is the answer, though I do ask myself why anyone continues to breed staffs when as a breed society is saturated with them wherever their origin, and they continue to rot in rescue centres. Huskies and husky crosses do appear, but not like staffs. 
I myself preferred a well bred puppy of my chosen breed with all health clearances. It does not stop me wishing to rescue others in addition that are in dire need, and I am sure many others have the same mix. One does not necessarily exclude the other. The rescue centre I vet for has to now limit the amount of staffs taken in, because people do not want them.

A lady at our club a couple of years ago, lost her old crossbreed. After a little while she searched for another, and we all helped her look (for a rescue). We searched high and low to find her a medium sized crossbreed. She didn't want a staff, and she didn't actually want a pedigree. We could not find one in the south of england (she was quite old and couldn't travel too far). Everything was staff, staff X etc. In the end, she got an ex breeding cocker spaniel. When our centre doesn't take staffs, it isn't full to breaking point!

What I am saying is that as a person that cares about dogs I want someone to reach out and help these dogs. If we can do it and help just a few and others can do the same it makes me feel better about the world.  If we sorted some of our own problems out it would mean we could reach out and help more.  For me, I want to reach out. I am not asking others to feel the same way.

Just wondering as a side issue, re: rabis/quarantine and exporting these rescue dogs how does that work then?

My worry is the other zoonotic diseases we could be bringing in and exposing our own native dog population to.

I still can't accept importing another countries issue when we have issues of our own.

Now Scandinavian countries importing rescue dogs when they have too few is another matter.

This is my train of thought, yes we all get sucked in looking at puppies and dogs needing homes, being mistreated and abandoned, we all have hearts and we all feel everything from repulsion to wishing to sob our hearts out.

But: We already have overflowing rescues, we already have enormous over-breeding, we already have ex breeding puppy farm dogs waiting for homes in abundance, dogs coming from Ireland.

We honestly do not need dogs coming from Romania too........

These poor souls should just be pts......

Re: The quarantine issue, how will that work a lorry load either have to stay in a country on the way for 6 months (who pays for that) or be shipped over to our country and have to stay in our quarantine for 6 months, (again at great expense) so these dogs are going to be in limbo for 6 months on their own in kennels or quarantine homes, it's not going to be click on picture, I'll have that dog and give it a good home, it's a 6 months wait, poor things should just be pts............... sorry I know you won't like that Chinablue and I know your heart is in the right place, but plenty of mongrels and crossbreeds here (they just cost money) if someone does not want a rescue SBT.

> but to simply put the dogs back on the streets still leaves them open to the most appalling cruelty, starvation, freezing to death etc.

I agree.  All unwanted dogs should be humanely put to sleep and that, along with education to hopefully reduce that situation, is where any available resources should go.  Trying to help a few individual dogs is, in my opinion, a futile occupation and untimately deprives many, many more of a release from their misery.

I tend to agree.

The problem is now that with the pet travel now having been made so easy, with just a 21 day wait after a Rabies vaccine for Qualifying countries, and only a 3 month wait after a blood titre for others, it will be much easier and cheaper to 'import' rescue dogs, as is already happening with Irish dogs.

Of course many people have their hearts in the right place, but others have a hidden agenda, who wish all breeding to stop until every unwanted dog has a home (from wherever that may be).

> In the end, she got an ex breeding cocker spaniel.

Exactly.  It may take a little patience but there is surely a needy dog somewhere in the UK already for anyone that has a space in their home.

And where does it stop.........

Most european countries do not give dogs and their other animals the same respect as us, charities bombard this country from all over the world for help, do we import them all?

Do we then stretch further afield and import from Mexico, Africa?

Our country is so small, we really are a tiny Island, we can not keep taking on every country under the suns problems, we send money and education to help,  but we have to stop bringing it here. No wonder we are known as soft touches and not given the respect we once had.

> we can not keep taking on every country under the suns problems, we send money and education to help,  but we have to stop bringing it here

I agree

Sorry I'm another who feels that this country needs sorting without importing dogs from other countries.  I don't know the risks of certain diseases from Romania, but sadly I've seen what can happen to dogs from Spain and even their pups born over here with diseases acquired in their parents country of origin from their mothers :( . 

I'm the same, my experience is Polish, for the general population dogs are just an animal, plenty latchkey, drowned at birth or dumped when unwanted, and we know there are loads of pups coming in legally and illegally (falsified ages for Rabies vaccs etc to get them in while still cute). 

Many people still view them as livestock, not something to be kept in the house (or more likely flat)or easy come easy go, not something to spend hard to come by resources on.

Don't get me onto cats, they are generally feral, tolerated in basements and allotments for vermin control, but when the numbers rise gassed or poisoned without a qualm.

I think it is quite a complicated issue.  However, I'd like to believe that my main 'belonging' is to the human race and to the planet.  Not to a small patch of land called the UK which happened to be where I was born.  If I wanted to help a dog (or person) in need, I would not draw a line and say that I would only help those who happened to have also been born on this island, because that seems a bit random and unfair.  I would help where I could.  Should we not give aid to Africa, or help countries during wartime, crisis or famine, because those issues happened in another country and not ours?  Sorry but that seems almost bordering on BNP mentality:  Foreigners out, our resources for ourselves.  I don't abide with that way of thinking when it's in relation to people, and nor do I when it's in relation to animals.  We are lucky enough to live in the UK and with privilege comes responsibility to others.

This is the problem many countries do not give a rats bum about their abandoned and stray animals, the cruelty is to us unbearable to others.... just a shrug of the shoulders.

Just because we are animal lovers doesn't mean we have to be the worlds dumping ground. Unfortunately attitudes like this are why we don't really feel the same as other European countries, we are not like them in the way we think and feel about many issues.

The countries must take responsibility and be made to care themselves.

> and with privilege comes responsibility to others

But far better, IMO, if you wish to help, donate money to local dog charities for neutering and education etc - the locals then see what needs to be done rather than 'nothing' as the animals just magically disappear :(

>the locals then see what needs to be done rather than 'nothing' as the animals just magically disappear :-(

Yes; the same as supporting puppy farms by removing the problem of surplus animals from them.

> I'd like to believe that my main 'belonging' is to the human race and to the planet.  Not to a small patch of land called the UK which happened to be where I was born. 

I feel the same, Rabid.  I have based my comments purely on the fact that I believe spending money and resources on helping a tiny number of individuals is misguided and many, many more would benefit by simply being relieved of their suffering.
Those very same resources would also go further if spent here simply because of the logistics but I have no problem with where people choose to spend their charity, that is entirely a personal choice.  It is just a shame that they do not see the wider picture in their desire to do something to help.

> If I wanted to help a dog (or person) in need, I would not draw a line and say that I would only help those who happened to have also been born on this island, because that seems a bit random and unfair.

but you would not bring all those people into the UK would you? So yes by all means contribute to help with the issues be they human or animal where they are. 

In the case of unwanted animals (or vermin as they may be considered there), if the strays need to be controlled, initially the excess to what can be homed locally having to be destroyed, to stop there being more, then so be it. 

If the strays/street dogs are at acceptable levels, then help with feeding and vet treatment may apply, then they can be neutered to prevent new births, reducing the issue over time (as with feral cat colonies).  Education and netuering programs for owned animals.

Exactly JG,

What really bugs me is these countries are 5,10,20,50,100+ x bigger than us, yet they can not build a rescue to make ours look like a small dog kennel, they can not find any foster parents or find in the whole of it's country people to have these dogs and care for them, no load them up stick some soppy pictures on the Internet and send them off to us and other countries who are more civilized when it comes to animal care.

No! Make them sit up and do it themselves. We and other countries no doubt will fund the whole thing but make them do it...

> No! Make them sit up and do it themselves. We and other countries no doubt will fund the whole thing but make them do it...

Quite.  Same argument as give a man a fish and he will eat that day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself.

This is a wholw different situation to helping when there is an unforseen disaster/crisis.

I did not say that stopping breeding here is the answer, though I do ask myself why anyone continues to breed staffs when as a breed society is saturated with them wherever their origin, and they continue to rot in rescue centres. Huskies and husky crosses do appear, but not like staffs. 

The irresponsible Staffy breeding needs to be stopped somehow, but the GOOD show breeders that take care, breed quality from health tested parents and choose their new owners carefully, they need to continue. Otherwise the situation will soon become that when anyone wants a Staffie (as clearly lots of people DO, even if it's not enough) they will have no other option but to go to a BYB, thus making the problem worse by encouraging them. It's getting to be this way in my breed Malinois. The irresponsible far, far outweigh the responsible and the responsible do not dare to breed for fear of not homing the pups. People used to be happy to wait for a pup, not many will do now as they can find one within a week -cheaply too. From unregistered parents not hip scored or eye tested, no questions asked from the breeder, dog not taken back when it becomes clear it has ended up in an unsuitable home, and so suddenly there are lots in rescue whereas a few years ago we never saw any in general rescue at all. :(All it took was a couple of irresponsible breeders prepared to sell a pup to anyone, and the breed landed in the wrong hands. Those wrong hands then perpetuated the problem.

Similar situation in my breed, though we don't have too much trouble finding homes (the litters are smaller, and the breed less well known so knowledgeable researchers will go for well bred) , just not enough of them, and so many of the irresponsibly/commercially sold to anyone who will buy are the ones coming into rescue far too frequently.

We do get some willing to buy in haste repent at leisure, types but with luck they won't realise their £100 or so saving on purchase price will cost in the long run.

I am am  another who thinks it wrong to fill our hard working rescues with overseas stray/ferrel dogs. I used to foster for a local rescue who do some great work, I still support them but not so much now as they now spend a lot of thier funds on sending people to Sri-Lanker and rounding up dogs off the streets to neuter and bringing many back to the UK. (I cannot foster any more ) I now give more of my support to my own breeds rescue.
I have a heart the same as we all do and the plight of these poor dogs cuts to the bone, but  if we continue to deal with the dog situation in other counties they will like the puppy farmers in the UK continue to produce pups as they can "Get rid of them" Far better for our government to put pressure on these countries to clean up thier own act. In the same vein we happily eat rubbish cheap meat in this country that is imported into the UK under the guise of "Prossesed foods" Pork from Poland that is heavily factory farmed, Beef in burgers that comes from huge beef factories in south america, cattle that never see the light of day let alone a green field.
How many of you who cry over the dogs are happy to eat a shop bought pork pie with polish pork in it ! We have one of the highest standards of animal care in the world in the UK but it seems many are hypocritical in that they would relieve another country who's animal care is dire of it's surplus, thereby opening up the floodgates for yet more to be produced.
Aileen

>Quite.  Same argument as give a man a fish and he will eat that day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself.

Exactly right. Go across, help them build their own rescues, educate them how to run them and help the dogs on site directly by all means. Relocating a problem doesn't cure it.

>We are lucky enough to live in the UK and with privilege comes responsibility to others.

Very true, and that's best done by helping them help themselves. We don't transport famine-hit and starving African villagers to the UK; we take aid to them and help them rebuild their own lives there. Helping the animals is no different.

As I said, I am not looking for agreement.
Our government doesn't have the wit or desire to deal with the problems of puppy farming and their biggest friends, the pet shops HERE - so I wouldnt look to get any pressure there in dealing with problems of animal welfare overseas. BTW they are helping people on the ground there too, to establish humane rescue shelters, not simply bringing all dogs over here!
Maybe you should all read a bit more about the situation, so that you have some understanding of the problems facing those who are trying to better the situations for these dogs, and what they are actually doing?

I think each person looks to their own preference in dealing with charities and who, what and how they support them. So long as organisations are truthful and transparent about where and how any donations are spent, you choose whether or not that is what you wish to support.

Merlot, these countries are not 'producing pups' like puppy farmers. It is a whole different scenario. Maybe you too should have a look at their website. Judging by the comments made, there seem to be some misconceptions.
Dogs and pork pies are very different issues, and each have their own welfare supports, but that is going off on a bit of a tangent.

>Dogs and pork pies are very different issues, and each have their own welfare supports, but that is going off on a bit of a tangent.

They're all suffering animals.

Indeed they are, and being a member of Compassion in World Farming I do know a bit about it, which is why I say each have their welfare support groups.

And just as we know that buying puppy farmed dogs puts money in the pockets of puppy farmers we also know that buying cruelly-produced meat from overseas for ourselves supports the animal cruelty abroad.

> Maybe you should all read a bit more about the situation, so that you have some understanding of the problems facing those who are trying to better the situations for these dogs, and what they are actually doing?
>

Rather patronising :)  I have travelled widely, not many countries in Europe that I have not visited as well as Africa, South America and Asia.  I have seen how people live in these counties as well as how they keep their animals, often through limited choice and means not necessarily through lack of care, and still do not believe the solution lies in selected one or two unfortunate animals to nurture in a sanctuary (although at least that may support a few humans to do so :)) or worst still spend enormous resources on transporting them hundreds of miles.

No argument from me

Stooge
Not at all, given that some of the statements show a clear lack of understanding of the situation or the work being undertaken, and in fact your comments indicate the same.

So, they are not keeping unwanted dogs alive and they are not rehoming them to other countries?

> a clear lack of understanding of the situation

What is there to understand ?? Bringing a lot of physically and mentally needy dogs a thousand miles does not, IMVHO, help the dogs nor improve the ongoing situation in the country in the long-term.

Daisy
I am referring to specific statements that people have made which indicate a lack of understanding of the situation, not the overall concept.

I do not doubt for one moment that the rescue services are doing a great job on the ground, I just think that the money spent on all the components of bringing a dog to the UK with health checks rabies jabs microchipping transportation etc..to re-home, would be better spent in the country of origin. Just how much money does it cost to put a dog through all of that ? Better in my mind to quietly PTS dogs like Tom the 10 year old crossbreed who is deaf and blind than to subject him to all that transporting to another county entails. It said on the web site (And yes I have looked) that living on the streets as a deaf blind dog must have been terrifying, however I am sure even though it was not easy for him, he would have been used to it. No doubt her was equally terrified being captured vet checked and boxed up to come to a country where he is a stranger to both smells, and voices. I am sure that for the cost of doing the same for numerous dogs, saved over the years could help to put in place some sort of local rescue and education process to help far more dogs like Tom. I still believe that any donations recieved could be put to much better use for the future and not spent in knee jerk situations.
Aileen

Stooge
"one or two unfortunate animals to nurture in a sanctuary"
Maybe you would like to expand on your statement that they are 'nurturing them in a sanctuary' ?

> Maybe you would like to expand on your statement that they are 'nurturing them in a sanctuary' ?

I think you can look up nurture yourself :) or is this some obscure way of telling us that they go straight from the street to a van to another country?

Aileen, thank you for looking. Believe it or not, I do not have a problem with putting dogs to sleep in some circumstances. Indeed, I believe there are many dogs in centres in the UK who for one reason (mostly temperament or behavioural issues) or another have little hope of being rehomed and IMO would be better off PTS. 

If the people who have decided that this is where they wish to devote their time and energy (and funds) as I said before,who are we to say that they are wrong? They have local rescuers and are attempting to establish some proper establishments on the ground locally, as well as finding homes for a few of the dogs outside of Romania. Until you are out there, doing the work they do, facing what they face I don't think we have the right to tell them the best way for them to spend their time and money, and whether the decision in each case is the right or wrong one.

It's no different to someone telling breeders to stop breeding dogs until all the rescued ones in need have found homes.

Ah Stooge, now I remember why I had you on ignore LOL.

> facing what they face I don't think we have the right to tell them the best way for them to spend their time and money

Of course people have a right to an opinion, why did you post about this if you did not want any?
If they have seen for themselves how animals suffer in deprived countries why should they not bemoan such a waste of money on whimsical notions of "rescuing" the few.  Ignore if you like :)

best way for them to spend their time and money,

Unfortunatly in most cases it is not thier money but donations, hence I wil not donate MY money (And it is mine) to oganizations who do not spend it as I think it would be best spent.

As you say we can choose who we support.

Aileen

I must say I can't think how many more could be helped ie with nuetering or space over here that must be spent on just transport alone. Also why would you want to fill our bulging rescues with even more dogs? Seems crazy.

Well you see this is where the misconceptions and lack of information is creeping in. No rescue centre spaces are being taken up.....they go into foster homes. The foster homes are available before they come.  So they are not taking up any kennel space that 'should' be given to other dogs in our 'bulging' rescues. Believe me when I say that they would not be bulging if it were not for the horrendous over abundance of staffs. Maybe we would have more room if the suggestion that was made on the other thread was followed through - euthanise all SBTs in rescue? That would ease our 'bulging' rescue centres.

People donating money to this organisation are very informed as to where it is going. They have chosen where they want their money spent, so I guess that's that. For those that are getting up and doing, I think they have the right to choose, as do their supporters. It must be hard to do what they do, and in addition battle against this view that I am sure is prevalent among a large section of 'dog' people. Oddly, the people that I know in rescue (and one is a kennel manager of a rescue centre) don't have a problem at all with it. Now isn't that interesting?

I think when people talk about "rescue space" they are referring to foster homes as well as kennels.  A space for a dog is a space for a dog.

>euthanise all SBTs in rescue?

Euthanase all dogs that don't have a good chance of a home in a short space of time.

When in any good cause and there are many, many good causes of course you are passionate about it and don't understand why others are not. :-)

Slightly deviating (doing a lot of that today :-) ) but, a friend of mine was telling me the other day of a boarding kennel near her which has also become a rescue, the rescue side has taken over so much and the doing good and not being able to turn a dog away anymore (90% SBT) that their boarding business is suffering, they are using their boarding kennels for rescue, not getting enough donations, losing out on business and sending out cries of help to other rescues who are also full and in the local papers etc, now saying they are going under and need help, instead of closing the rescue or downsizing it and concentrating on their original business again they are instead desperately asking for fosterers to take in more dogs which they cannot cope with and financially crippling themselves.

Common sense from the outside dictates that you cannot continue to be a saint, that dogs need to be pts, but when you're in it I guess you can't see the wood for the trees.

While I was at the DogsTrust this morning waiting for my dog to be microchipped they took four phone calls in ten minutes all enquiring about signing their dogs over to the rescue. They were all told that the dogs could be brought in for assessment but there is currently a four month waiting list before a place is available. One dog was also returned from an unsuccessful rehoming whilst I was there too.

Most of the dogs that were there were lurcher types or terriers and only a few seemed to be SBT types. The reasons for rehoming were varied - the dog brought back again - a springer spaniel type who had clearly been bred from in the paset - was due to a "change in working hours" , another enquiry for rehoming was because the dog growled if the children went near it whilst it was eating - the DT person taking the call told them to not  let the children near it whilst it was eating and to let it eat in peace but that idea obviously didn't go down well with the caller.

The last call was from a lady who had "rescued" a lurcher and the following week it had three puppies and she wanted them all signed over to the DT. She said the puppies and mum were very thin and wormy and not doing well - it was suggested that she wormed them but was told that the owner was on benefits and couldn't afford it.

Apart from the dog that was brought back the others all had to go on a waiting list which didn't go down well with those trying to rehome them.