Hi Guys,

Sorry I know there is lots of different topics on this issue but as each vase is different I thought best to start a new one.

I have 2 Jack Russell's (1 bitch - 2 years old - a pedigree and the other Parsons Terrier just over a year old) and recently they have started fighting aggressively - so much so they are drawing blood and its near impossible to separate them so now I have to put them in different rooms all the time, at night I lock 1 in her cage in the same room as the other so they can still see each other but it seems to be making the situation worse.

The younger Jack is now physically shaken and is completely submissive if the other dog goes anywhere near her cage....

Is there anything I can do to get them back together? They used to get on really well but it looks like the recent fights  have completely distorted the relationship they had and worried I will never get to mix them again :0(

Both are currently unspayed (getting this done in a month or 2) and 1 has just come out of heat.

Thanks guys!!

Deano

Well I'm afraid you may never get them back together,bitches are notorious for bearing grudges against another bitch. I would not keep them in the same room at night,the bitch that is feeling threatened needs somewhere away from the other one to relax and feel safe. Spaying won't make any diffence to either of them re fighting. You have two choices here, one ..you keep them seperate at all times for the rest of their lives or two.. you rehome one of them.

I agree, especially given the breed.  I'd not recommend 2 female JRTs living together, at all. 

> Is there anything I can do to get them back together? They used to get on really well but it looks like the recent fights  have completely distorted the relationship they had and worried I will never get to mix them again :0(

I would say that this is almost certainly to be the case with bitches that are evenly matched. Particularly with a breed like JRTs who like scrapping on the whole. The only time I have ever heard of two bitches sorting them selves out was with 2 of mine. They are very different sizes. It was the small one who wanted to kill the big one. After the big one half killed the small one she did actually learn not to attack the big one. But it was very traumatic and not a method I recommend.

> The younger Jack is now physically shaken and is completely submissive if the other dog goes anywhere near her cage....

Keep the other dog away from her. How would you like to be stuck in a cage while an axe murderer proweld round outside. I can guarantee you would  be shaken if someone who wanted to kill you was pacing round.

Spaying is very unlikely to make much difference

Deano

You know what they say.  Dogs fight to breed.  Bitches fight to breathe.  And you will always get a far worse outcome with the bitches fighting.

I agree that the threatened bitch needs to be taken out of a frightening environment.  Before she becomes too traumatised.  I would be thinking of finding a nice kind home (single dog home) for this little girl.

Perhaps later, if you want a multi dog household - go for a male.  At least you know that your bitch will always be top dog, and the male won't question it.  And you do need to wait about 3 months before spaying her.  It is a far better operation when done in the middle of her cycle.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I am very concerned that they are fighting and will of course take the advise of keeping them completely apart (different rooms) however I would be heartbroken to have to decide who to re-home.

Would anyone suggest placing muzzles on them both to see if they can at least being in the same room with out the ability to actually harm each other? Or is this now a lost cause...?

I am afraid to say that most here will probably advise that it is a lost cause. They might appear to settle for ages and then go to it again when you least expect it. I think when bitches really fall out they never forget and can play the long game, simply waiting for an opportunity to 'get' the other one. Also could never be sure what might trigger a spat. The only way you could manage would be to keep them separate and that is a very tall order and would not be relaxing for you.

I would also think very carefully about spaying. If anything , it might make them worse, so much depends on how the seasons affect each of the dogs.

I would be inclined to rehome whichever of them seems more confident in general as it might be easier for them to make the transition. But you need to look carefully at the sort of home and you would not want to rehome with another bitch. Are both girls equally good with people, children and other dogs?

> Would anyone suggest placing muzzles on them both to see if they can at least being in the same room with out the ability to actually harm each other? Or is this now a lost cause...?

It won't work! If your bitches are smart they will work out pretty damn quick that they can't sink their teeth into each other so will fool you into thinking all is well between them. DO NOT BE FOOLED! the first time you are daft enough to have them loose with each other unmuzzled all hell will break loose! It is very stressful having two dogs loose with each other (muzzled or not) You can never relax,never take your eyes off them and the bitch that feels threatened will be traumatised. Not a nice situation for any of you to be in.

Given the breed types and the closeness of their ages I think there is very little chance. (hard to imagine who allowed you to have the second one :( without warning you of the extreme likelyhood of this happening)
If you do work out some arrangement you could face, maybe, at least a dozen years of forever watching and living scared of a door being left open or such. 
For their happiness and your own sanity I think you should be looking for a suitable home for one or the other as soon as possible.

Years ago, when we had 2 bitches that hated each other, we decided we couldn't re-home so we spayed both bitches and waited a few months for the hormones to settle(on vets advice).  This didn't make any difference, they still wanted to kill one another!  So we kept them separate at all times.  I think when the older bitch was about 13 yrs old and had only a couple of teeth left, we managed to get them into the same room but given half a chance, they would have fought again.  Old age was the only thing that stopped it.

If I had a do-over, I would re-home my younger bitch(younger by a year).  She had a fabulous temprement and was a really great dog but she was the one that never really got in the house as the older one was used to staying inside.  I felt the younger bitch lived a sort of half life waiting for me to spend time with her and I really regret that now. 
Please consider what's best for the dogs, not just how you feel.

They can still fight with muzzles on, it's just not going to do the same damage. They will still go through the motions which will be very stressful for the one that is put upon.

I have bitches that don't get on. One lot sleeps in the kitchen and use the back garden, the other has the living room (and sleep in our bedroom) and use the front garden. This way I have been able to avoid rehoming and they don't have to meet at all. But I'm lucky in that my front garden is as big as the back.

however I would be heartbroken to have to decide who to re-home.

There's not much of a decision really,  you rehome either the one who is the most confident and outgoing or the youngest one.  Whichever you rehome it must be to a single dog home.

I know you love both dogs and it will be difficult, but in this case you have to love them enough to let one go.  

If you don't, at best you will spend the next 13-15 years trying to keep them separate and waiting for the next accident.   With both dogs only living half a life.

At worst ...  Well, the consequences don't bear thinking about :-(

I've seen dogs get muzzles off, if they are determined, they will manage it.    Even if they didn't, what kind of life is it, living in a muzzle :-(

Thanks again guys for your advice.....ultimately I want what is best for each of the dogs, I guess if there is no way of getting them back together then I will have to re-home.

Very difficult situation but unless you can supervise them at all time and stop the fighting starting then yes rehoming is really your only option.

Keep the other dog away from her. How would you like to be stuck in a cage while an axe murderer proweld round outside. I can guarantee you would  be shaken if someone who wanted to kill you was pacing round.

Love that quote Newyork! And very apt.

Deano I agree with everything that has been said, terrible situation to be in.....

Please also do not think that having them even in the same room muzzled will not result in injury, they will still fight regardless, their nails can do a lot of damage to each other along with body tackling, they don't just use their teeth to fight.

No doubt the seasons have caused heirarchy issues, sometimes things can settle as one of your JR's is showing submission, but would I chance it with this breed, even with one being submissive the other may just not wish to tolerate your other female no matter what, the breed is so feisty and will think nothing of tearing the others throat out if the mood takes.

Re-homing is for the best there is always this worry with two females, not enough of an age gap here for the elder bitch to have made her mark first, but it can happen even with the right age gap too.

Sorry it has ended up this way....   it's heartbreaking to have to let a dog go. Would the breeder have her back? She would be my first port of call.

Hard decision for you to make but sadly it is looking like the only option

I wouldn't try it with muzzles either, my 2 boys fell out quite some years back, and some idiot who called themselves a behaviourist told me to muzzle them and let them fight it out. Worst thing I could have done, they fought themselves into exhaustion, it was totally traumatic for all of us, and the fight behaviour was thoroughly entrenched by this lengthy fight I believe. :-(

Please, please rehome one of these girls.

Honestly, living with the tension of dogs who want to kill one another (or one who wants to kill the other) is horrid and if its horrid for US, imagine how awful it is for the dogs!

Muzzling them won't work, one of your bitches has decided that the other one MUST GO and she will likely now do EVERYTHING she can to make that happen. The two bitches I had, one would attack the other over a scent on the ground, she was constantly actively searching for 'reasons' to attack and eventually just the sight of the other bitch was enough reason.

I have dealt THREE cases just last year where people had come home to find that for one reason or another, bitches who hated each other had accidentally gotten together and the owner returned to a blood bath and on all three occasions, a dead dog. The two that weren't terrier types were bad enough, the JRT vs Patterdale incident the owner is still receiving counselling.. it seems (without wanting to be too graphic but to still be honest with you), the attacking dog had NOT stopped when the other bitch was dead. She can't face ever owning a dog again after that, and I can understand why!

Can I say I had asimilar problem with 2bitches fighting, the smaller one always looking for trouble particularly worse when seasons were close and in the end the smaller bitch went to my moms for 3 months after she tried to bite bigger girls eyeball out. I was sure I'd never be able to have her back but when I did they have been fine ever since. However I never leave them alone and am always quick to pick one of them up if there is/excitement in the house just in case it incites a riot but touch wood I've had 18 months of peace.

I agree however if they can't lead a normal life and you can't either it would be kinder to find a lovely home.

LucyDogs, that is appalling. I hope this 'behaviourist' does not belong to a reputable organisation, if he does he should be reported. In my view there are only three organisations worth dealing with, APBC and UKRCB for behaviourists and APDT for trainers.

Theemx,

I was talking to a terrier owner recently about this. She had a Mum and daughter who fell out badly (daughter wanted to rule the roost) and despite her very best efforts and constant monitoring together with periods of peace and quiet, the aggression always resurfaced and she eventually had to rehome the daughter. It was apparent to her that serious injury was definitely on the cards. It was also very hard for her to accept that rehoming was the only realistic option if she was to avoid a dead or badly injured dog. However, the daughter is doing well and happily settled, also a much less anxious dog.

Thanks again guys - decided that I am going to re-home one of them am in the process of doing so - however I took them both to the park today ad they got on brilliantly - no snarling, barking or anything (this is the second time in the last week I have managed this) I know it will
mean very little and they could turn again but it was nice to see that a change of scenery could have this affect :0/

Deano

Difficult, difficult decision.  So well done you for making the ultimate sacrifice.  I salute you.

Good Luck.
Jean

My boys would usually be ok out on walks, but it was a different question at home. We couldn't have managed if they hadn't been a small breed. And with terriers, I think you are making the right decision, heartbreaking though it must be.

Hi I dont agree with any of the above, I own large breeds and a small breed bitch, one of the large breed bitches is intact and the other one is spayed my westie is spayed to. It wasn't always this way. At one time they were all intact and there was never any fights. Plus I own two entrie males who have never fought. You need to get the bitches sleeping together in the same area so they are on equal ground, never let anyone of them go upstairs, I.e if the dogs are only allowed in the kitchen or living room that must apply to both bitches, neither are bitch allowed on the furniture and they need to know you are the leader so they have no need to fight over leadership. When you feed them feed them at the same time and make sure you supervise so the greedy one doesn't get to eat the other ones food, if the other one tries to get the food you intervene and keep the peace, I promise harmony can be established in your house hold. The bitch that is inferior leave her loose and put the other one in the cage. If you need anymore help give me a pm and I will talk you through it. I have had dogs all my life and they all live together as a pack with no fights whatsoever

I think you have been very lucky, I had 2 bitches who lived in perfect harmony till the one had pups[the other one had failed to get pregnant but had phantoms at each mating] and then thought she should be higher up the pecking order and out of the blue they started fighting, weeks would go by of peace then another bust up with me being the one bleeding trying to separate them so I ended up pairing them up with one of my males and not leaving them loose unsupervised as I was really worried they would kill each other and we spent over 2yrs with this routine till one bitch died suddenly.

Neither of them picked on the daughter of one bitch, maybe if she had pups things would have changed.

They were free fed and were not treated any different from each other, when I sat down all 5 dachsies joined me on the chair, no one at that time was sleeping in my bed and they knew I was in charge.

There are too many similar stories on here for it all to be poor management by the owners.

> You need to get the bitches sleeping together in the same area so they are on equal ground,

Great Advice. How exactly do I do this if one bitch attacks the other ferociously on sight and will try to dig through a door to get at the one she hates on the other side?

> You need to get the bitches sleeping together in the same area so they are on equal ground

You need to ignore that advice! As has been said that poster has been very lucky that they have never fought and does not know just how serious bitch fights can be. I have owned and trained dogs for well over 40yrs and once bitches fight (not just spats,lot of noise,bluff and bluster!)then they will need to be kept well away from each other. Bitches are notorious for bearing grudges against another bitch. I have now and in the past had bitches that would kill each other and have known of other bitches that fight and I can promise you not one of them has been ever been able to live in proximity with the other bitch ever. When bitches get to the point of fighting then thats the end of peace and harmony.

Many years ago when we had one standard poodle bitch we were about to add another to our family when a friend with two bitches suffered the most horrendous injuries to her hands when separating her two standard bitches that had lived happily together for years.  In just one moment there was blood shed on her bed, she was getting dressed one bitch was on her bed and the other one jumped on.  My friend had to have plastic surgery on her hands and both bitches lived the rest of their lives with one muzzled all the time and a very tense household.  At the time I was horrified at this breed behaving like this and I was still determined to add another bitch to our family but then my Mum's toy poodle bitch had to come and live with us and she was an absolute nightmare attacking our bitch at every opportunity, the stress was undeliverable and not something I'd ever choose again. You have been offered very good sound advice from folk here and I would be thinking of rehoming one bitch as the stress you will live with will be unrelenting, 24/7 for at least the next ten years.  I couldn't do it :(

We have 2 patterdales living together, but one is male the other a bitch. They are joined at the hip, best friends and they work as a team ratting and chasing rabbits. ( they never manage to catch the rabbits though)They are both equals and there appears to be no dominance issues between them, neither is the boss and they have never had a disagreement.
But I would never dream of having two of the same flavour as I am sure they would not get on and would quite likely make my life as well as theirs a nightmare. I am looking for another dog and had a post going about whippets because as much as I would love to have another terrier I think it would be very silly to upset the applecart because a bitch or a dog would clash with one of the patts and I couldn't take chances on that.
Lets face it terriers are feisty little souls !!!

> they all live together as a pack with no fights whatsoever

I have had 9 bitches, up to 6 at a time in an average 3 bedroom house with the dogs using living-room and kitchen.

Never had any issues other than the odd spat where I have settled things as you say with everyone treated the same.

This is not to say it is guranteed it will be like this always.

Just occasionally, even in a usually sociable breed you will get two bitch that take against each other.

This is not the same as males that usually only fight for the right to be seen as a superior potential stud, ans usually only occurs if they are competing (even if only in their minds) for available bitches.

In such situations normally sociable males will return to peace when the issue is removed, not so bitches, who fall out less often, but when they do it can be far more serious, ands serious fighting to the death can occur in a split second.

Breed makes a big difference too.

>Lets face it terriers are feisty little souls !!!

Another terrier lover here, but I call them feisty little sods!  :-)

I call them terrier-ists!

Another terrier lover here, but I call them feisty little sods! 

Sorry I couldn't possibly put in writing what I call them sometimes.....

>they need to know you are the leader

This outlook is totally old school.  And dogs don't see us as "leader", they know we're not dogs!