Hi all,

Just had my results back from my Curly coats hip scoring. I'm disappointed as they have come back 9/10 = 19

The Breed average is 11.

Pepper is 4 years and 4 months and I was planning on Breeding from her this year.....depending on the result of the hip score.

The reason I have left everything until she was older....is the fact she didn't come into season until she was 22 months and then has only come in once a year.

I would just value your opinions out there on what you would do in my case.

I know that you will probably say that whole dog should be considered....not just the hips....which I totally agree with....

I'm now in the situation where I don't quite know what to do for the best.... I would love for Pepper to have a Litter....and before anyone asks....Yes I have looked into this for over a year and researched for a suitable sire and gone back through several pedigrees etc. etc....and I know it involves a hell of a lot of work but I have a lot of support from Peppers breeder and my mother in law to be...!!! Also other Curly people.

My reasons for wanting to breed from Pepper were to improve the quality of the Breed.....and to carry on her line. Obviously I am baised....but she is a beautiful Liver Curly with an excellent temperament ;) She has proved herself in the ring also winning BOB at Crufts last year and another BOB with a Group 4 placing end of last year :)

But now I'm thinking will I be improving the quality of the Breed...:( Or would I be silly to let this stop me from Breeding her...

Feel free to give any opinion good or bad...:p

Kind Regards

Vicki & Pepper xxx

I'd say get in touch with her breeder and the stud dog owners breeder and see what they think. 19 isn't that much over the average of 11 and her hip scores were pretty much equal so it might not be the disaster you think it is.

The hip scores are just one thing to consider when breeding and the results could have been a lot worse :)

Fiona
x x x

Thanks Fiona:)

I'm in the process of contacting Peps Breeder who is very supportive....also I have contacted a lovely lady who is extremely knowledgable on Curlies....so waiting for a response from her.

Would like opinions from others with different breeds....as to what they would do.....

Vicki xx

Hi Vicky
As at 10/10/01 there had been 260 dogs scored and the scores ranged from 0 to 59 giving a breed average of 11.
I would assume there have been many more tested to dateand maybe the average has changed slightly? Have you thought of asking the KC to send you the list of all dogs scored and their results. That way you can work out a bang up to date average and also see which dogs with which scores produce litters and the scores of pups from those litters. Hopefully the dams scores will also be shown so will give you a good picture of what you will get. We found the list really informative, much better than the score sheet supplied by the BVA.

Thanks Staffie...

I take it I just ring the KC....and this will cost no doubt...;)

I will give them a call now...

Thank you to those who have replied so far....I'm just so disappointed and upset....that I may not be able to carry Pepper's line on....:(

When the Veterenary Nurse called and told me...I felt sick...probably sounds pathetic....

But as someone as already said...I think I know deep down what is the right thing to do....

Take Care

Vicki xx

Hi Vicky, it`s not the end of the world although it may feel like it is right now! :) Your probably too upset at the mo to make any decisions but when you`ve had a bit of time, talk it thru with your dogs breeder & other breeders you trust & see what they think about it. All may not be lost because her hips are not the only thing she has & all her good points may far outweigh the slightly high hip score.
Christine, Spain.

Yeah it will cost :-) how did you guess!!! ha ha
I think it was between £5 and £10. We also got the list of all the Staffies that had been eye tested and whether affected or not. That too was really interesting. Again that cost between £5 and £10 but always useful to have.
I will get them updated yearly and keep them as my own little data base :-)

I would read Malcolm willis' letter in the Issue of 24th Jan. He shows a much better way of interpereting the progress with Hip Scores, than taking the average of all dogs ever scored. He uses Nefs as an example, which shows that if you analyse a particular years scores you will see a reduction in the mean score over the generations, whereas adding all the dogs ever sdcored would seem to show little or no progress.

I think a useful excersise in breeds with few scored would be to average out scores in 5 year increments, this would show if the trend is in the right direction.

I would go with a low scoring dog. 19 is not a bad score at all and from what I understand is a score at which a Police dog would be expected to have a Working life, so functionally pretty normal. Under the OFA comparison it would just about come under Fair Category. The next Categories they use are Borderline, Mild dysplasia, Moderate Dysplasia and Severe Dysplasia.

Wat I mean to say is that she is basically in a normal range. If you can find a male with a low score with Parents that are likewise low and producing low, I wouldn't think you have a problem. The Curly breed average is pretty low anyway, so finding a low scoring sire should be quite possible to compensate.

Hi Vikki,

I am so sorry about your results and can imagine how bad you feel.

The answer is with you and I think you will know the right choice deep down. You have done all your homework certainly.

IMHO If the average is 11 then improving on this I would believe would be to only breed from less. I must be honest and say that I do not have a clue about hipscore so not sure.

Congrats on all your wins.

What did her breeders say?

Pam

Have to say Vicky, that with all her other attributes, I would have a litter from her personally - but I would be very careful in my choice of stud dog. I would be looking for a low scoring dog, and looking at his progeny too (taking into account hip scores of the bitches), so you might need to reconsider your chosen male.

Don't know what you hoped to keep from the litter, but if I had a concern over a slightly higher hip score, I would not consider keeping a male - if you keep a female, you can continue being careful over the coming generations. All other puppies could be endorsed so that their progeny cannot be registered, which hopefully with a breed like the Curly Coat would ensure they weren't bred from - or under agreement that endorsements will be lifted if quality is sufficient and hip score is acceptable.

M.

Trouble is Vicky, your hip scores are very even (9/10) which points to the fact that it is a "genuine" score and not just the result of an injury. The score is not good but then again, it's not a disaster of a score either. At that your dog is not likely to suffer given a halfway reasonable lifestyle.

As to what you do now, a score like this, to me anyway, should only be bred from if is exceptional in all other points. And then only to a dog carrying a very good score. Even doing this means you are hoping that the puppies inherit the sire's hips! Also be aware that the strain of carrying and giving birth could bring on hip problems.

Regards, John

you need to take in the whole picture---she obviously has many other qualities, -and the scores not horrific by any means, -if she where mine id breed from her, trying to use a line of good scoring males , good luck :D

Hello,

To add my tuppence worth in..if your bitch was BOB at Crufts...well, what does this say? She must be a good 'un.

The hip score is not the be all & end all of breeding, chose a dog that has progeny tested with lower scores than himself not just a low scoring sire. I know of a dog with a score of 2 but his progeny has had scores in the 50's, 60's & 70's.

This happened to me a few years ago with a bitch I bred, she came back with a very uneven score (5,19=24) and her owners had her spayed even though she was BOB at Crufts, she is now titled too. At the age of 8 she still competes in agility...so what does that say? Now, I wonder about the vet who took the plates having seen another X-ray he took and it was terrible. :(

You say one of your bitches came back with an uneven score could it not possibly have been some sort of injury which added to the score being higher on one side, I think John mentioned this to a posting avove just curious because I have heard this said before about uneven hipscore

JANINES

Yes, I know uneven scores can be injuries, I also know uneven scores can be the fault of the vet not positioning the dog correctly causing one hip to look "out" (I've had this conversation with John already). I woud say go with recommendations on a vet to hip X-ray a dog, not just your vet practice.

Thanks John...

Appreciate your honesty....I know exactly what you are saying and having spoken to vet last night....you are right in that it is a genuine score and even if I had had her scored at 1 year old it may have been only been marginally better.... :(

Yes the dog should be exceptional in all other areas to even consider breeding from her....I would say she is...but I'm biased :)

...But again the Vet explained it's all about genetics...and the puppies may take after the mother and the problem may be exaggerated (Vet suspected this is what has happened as Pepper's mother has slighty above average score ) or could even average out with the low scoring father....do you risk it... Don't think I can if I'm honest....

Thank you to you all for your input and wealth of knowledge....

Haven't made my final decision as yet....but I think deep down I know what the right thing to do is...

Still heartbroken....but hey I still have a beautiful dog that means the world to me...:D

Regards

Vicki & Pepper xx

Just a couple of thoughts Vicki - don't bite my head off! Could she have been over exercised as a puppy? And what are the scores of the dogs behind your girl? I'm sure that genes give a predisposition to HD, but I do believe that there can be other influencing factors.
I wish we could test for the genes that our dogs are carrying rather that just the mature pictures that they present. But at the moment, that's all we have to go with.

I wouldn't bite your head off Val...not that kinda girl...:)

I wouldn't say she was over exercised as a pup...as my mother in law to be.....is very much in to not letting the dogs go upstairs and lifting them in to the car etc etc.... and she is the one that has looked after Pepper during the days I'm at work....since we brought her home as a pup.

She is very in to Agility and has a Flatcoat and a new Border Collie pup....Flatcoat is 7 and still competing in Agility.....so she knows what not do regarding spoiling the dogs as pups for agilty.

I think it genuinely is hereditary....Dam 5/8 Sire 2/2....brother 3/3 sister 9/8....Grandsire 4/17 Granddam 4/4.... Grandsire 1/6.

I know some of the other offspring from the second litter have higher scores.

But I suppose it is always possible she was over exercised as a pup....unless you wrap them in cotton wool it is very difficult to tell.

The Vet did say though...under manipulation he thought the hips were excellent....as there was no laxness.....they wouldn't budge....but then looking at the x-ray it told a different story...so he knew she would have a score....just didn't think it would be that high....:(

He also said I shouldn't let it stop me....but it gets very political....:rolleyes:

I do think you are right when you say there are other influencing factors....but the score is the score....and that is what everyone will see...:(

Regards

Vicki & Peps xx