How can you tell if they are genuine or 'puppy farmers'?  I've done research on this forum and the internet in general but it all seems to be 'good intentions'.  I ask this as I've seen on-line a puppy I would like but it is 5 hours journey away (probably through floods).  I would only be able to go there to collect it.  This place appears to breed at least 6 breeds and not registered with KC.  What suggestions could you give me?  I would like you to view their web-site but the rules of this forum say I'm not allowed to tell you.

Stay away

Thank you, Rhodach.  Will do. 

Certainly dont go near this person. The impression of this one I get, is 6 breeds is alot & I suspect even dachshund folk dont have all 6 breeds. Also why dont they KC reg them..perhaps they are bred from every season or they are endorsed & not able to register any resulting puppies??

It is difficult for people to know if someone if a puppy farmer, no matter where they live & Wales has had such bad press it isnt nice to the genuine & responsible breeders who reside in Wales.

Why would you even consider a pup from this breeder ?

Maybe it was 4 breeds thinking back.  They aren't registered because they are 1st cross-bred.  This is what interested me.  I'm not being sensible.  My heart rules my head. Obviously by the video which shows them indoors they must be reared in kennels, fair enough.  I must explain why I am so taken with them.  I have been the owner of welsh border collies, shetland sheepdogs and alsatians.

Celtic Lad, not very good with history/geography, but does your user name indicate you are from Wales? or do I mean Scotland or Ireland lol?

My advice STAY WELL CLEAR

There are wonderful breeders in Wales, but as with breeders in other parts of the UK you have to watch out for the puppy farmers and Back Yard Breeders.

The situation you describe would have me running a mile wherever they were situated.

I live in Wales and am sick of hearing about how we are all puppy farmers when this is not true.     There are Dodgy breeders all over the UK.

Why are you particularly wanting a crossbreed?     They are rarely a perfect mix of both breeds and are a gamble.  The reasons for producing crossbreeds are usually suspect to say the least - apart from some Lurcher breeders, who are breeding for a certain 'type' and purpose and keeping to a tried and tested crossbreeding.  

If it's a mix of the breeds you have mentioned,you would be far better getting a health tested pup from a dedicated breeder.   If the breeder has certificates for health tests of the parents, then at least you know they are doing what they can for the health of the pups.

If you say what you are looking for perhaps

In general, good breeders have one or maybe two different breeds. They are actively either showing or working their dogs (breeding is not the hobby, being IN DOGS is the hobby which breeding is a very small part of). They may have one or two litters bred per year, at most -many don't even have as many as that. If you Google their name/kennel name you should be able to find various results from shows or similar. They KC register their pups and you can therefore check the parents' health tests results online at the KC website -as obviously they will never breed from anything that has not been health tested. (Depending on breed.) Their pups will most likely be reared in the house as part of the family, not outside in kennels. (The pups should at least be indoors for the first 4 weeks.) They offer lifetime support and advice to any puppy buyers, and they will not sell you a puppy before asking you lots of questions about your suitability for one of their pups. They will want you to sign a contract when you buy a pup from them, and they will want you to agree to return the dog to them if you are ever unable to keep it, for any reason, at any age. The puppies will be endorsed not for breeding or export, and endorsements will only be lifted if you have the dog put through the relevant heath tests, shown, worked, or whatever the breeder sees fit to ensure only the best dogs are bred from. If they then happen to live in Wales, it doesn't matter. :)

Don't touch with barge pole.

Think about it what is their interest in dogs, only breeding.

Good breeders breed as part of their involvement in their breed, whether it be showing or work, sport of some kind, breeding is a by product, not the main occupation.

There should be a purpose for the litter beyond mere reproduction. A Good breeder will tell you exactly why they bred the litter, what place it may have in their or others future breeding program if they turn out as hoped

I found more informatiom on another forum and they to say anyone dealing with this kennel is asking for trouble.  Dill asked what was I actually looking for.  In my area all dogs whether pedigree or not cost over £650 and nearer £1000.  People pay this!  I want a puppy but not at those prices.  £200 max.  Pedigree or x breed there is no guarantee of good health.  In the old days you looked at cards in shop windows or the small ads.  You used to get a really hardy dog that never saw a vet.  My neighbour got a pedigree for £400 and it was sick from day one.  The breeder gave all the paperwork saying they would take pup back, lifetime help etc., but when my neighbour took pup back to get a refund she was told we take dog back but we didn't say anything about a refund.  When asked what she would do with pup she was told she would try and sell it on and give my friend what she got minus admin fee but failing that she would have it put to sleep because that is what she did with unsold pups.  Needless to say my neighbour kept the dog.

>In my area all dogs whether pedigree or not cost over £650 and nearer £1000.

Where do you live. Chelsea or Kensington? Have you asked at your local vet practices if they know of any litters? Crossbreed puppies are usually no more than £150 to £200 in my area of the Midlands. What particular type of dog are you looking for?

<Crossbreed puppies are usually no more than £150 to £200 in my area of the Midlands.

Only if they haven't been given a catchy name or revel in the title of 'F1 hybrids' surely?

Very true. :-)

>In the old days you looked at cards in shop windows or the small ads.  You used to get a really hardy dog that never saw a vet.

Equally you used to get a sickly dog that soon died. As you rightly say "Pedigree or x breed there is no guarantee of good health." However you can improve your chances of getting a healthy puppy by buying from a specialist, who only has one or two breeds, and very few litters, so has put 100% of their time and effort into researching and rearing the single litter they have available at any one time.

> In my area all dogs whether pedigree or not cost over £650 and nearer £1000.&nbsp;

I'm sorry but that is perfectly reasonable especially if all health testing (around £500 for my breed with only a couple needed) has  been done for parents, and the litter reared well from typical parents.

It costs a lot of money to breed and rear a litter properly (sadly those who don't do this just charge the same).  Not forgetting the time and work put in, and sleepless nights for the breeder.

With my medium size breed, generally good mothers, not prone to C sections, that averages around 6 pups (3 -9 personally), the costs easy to identify will amount to around £1800 per litter if there are no vet expenses, an out of hours vet visit around here is £140, plus treatment. 

Then there are the unseen expenses like constant washing of bedding, puppy sitters (even if it's a take out for your kids, or bottle of wine for doggy friend), wear and tear on your home cost of phone-calls stationery etc.

Some of the very pricey breeds break down into two or three categories, those with tiny litters, so expense over fewer pups, and often vet expenses high for C sections etc, or very large breeds that take a lot of rearing (food facilities and time), and fashionable/purportedly rarer.  Never understand the rare bit as my breed has less than 50 pups registered a year and are still averagely priced for a medium size breed.

If like a friend of mine your self employed, it means no work while rearing a litter (which is why she has only bred two litters in her years in the breed), many people will need to take unpaid holiday to cover looking after a litter.

When I bought my first dog for £350 that was just under my London Civil servant monthly wage.

Pups in my breed are currently around £700, my daughter takes home over £1000 in a similar office job (not in London), so the average cost of a puppy has if anything reduced somewhat.

If you don't want to pay a reasonable market price for a well bred puppy, then go to rescue and get one, but chances are that that one will have been bred with little thought or care, or been bought by someone who lacked the commitment to dog ownership.  So it will still possibly cost you more in the long run, especially regards training and mental wellbeing, but you might get lucky.  Certainly lining the pockets of a commercial puppy producer, who looks on puppies as a crop, minimum input maximum profit, (you can buy dog food for £10 a sack, lord knows what's in it, but it's not the quality of the £40 a bag food or even the £30)  you'll do no better, so better stick with rescue..

How much would you pay for a weeks holiday, a new sound system, washing machine cooker etc.  Have you seen the price of a good bed? or some of the Good hiking boots.  Oh and those designer label clothes.  A dog is a luxury of course not a necessity, so can be saved up for like anything else we might like to have, but is not essential (well it is to me, couldn't live without the dogs)..

An excellent post Brainless....I am currently having the usual 'I cant pay that much' for my current litter. Folk just dont realise the hidden cost that go into rearing a litter properly do they!!

Brainless,

I agree, apart from:-

an out of hours vet visit around here is £140, plus treatment.
In this area you won't get an out of hours visit for less than £180 plus treatment - one of the poorest boroughs in the UK.   So vets fees can vary wildly from county to county in the UK with very little rhyme or reason.

A normal visit to the vet costs £30 plus treatment - every visit!    

Pups in my breed average at £600-£700   Health tested and from a show breeder.     Official average litter size 4, but many litters have 3 or less.  Most breeders in this breed will keep at least one to show, so less chance of breaking even on costs.

You can buy our breed cheaper, but working/pet bred litters won't have had vital DNA testing or other health tests and won't have been bred with knowledge of inheritance of the main possible health problem.  I've also seen pet bred dogs in this breed with the most appalling incorrect coats, very difficult to maintain owing to the cottonwool texture and poor/dodgy temperaments  :-(

But as you say, you get what you pay for

> an out of hours vet visit around here is £140, plus treatment.
> In this area you won't get an out of hours visit for less than £180 plus treatment - one of the poorest boroughs in the UK.&nbsp;

the charge I stated was for us visiting the vet, not for a call out, hate to think what they would charge for a home visit, which they are very reluctant to do anyway.

Yep standard vet visit in hours £35.

"But as you say, you get what you pay for"

Sadly even that isn't always true :( I've had my breed for almost 30 years, have bred champions and do all the required health tests for my breed plus others too, and there are people who charge considerably more for puppies than I do who have done considerably less!

People have to do their research

Totally agree Lexy,

I saved a long time to buy my first pedigree pup.  But that gave me vital time to research the breed properly.   I knew when I'd found a good breeder of quality pups, I knew they were being upfront about breed health and their lines in particular.  We are still in touch 13 years later.  

We rarely visit the vets, last time was when my bitch was speyed and they had to re-register her as it had been so long since they'd seen her.  The other 2 haven't been to the vets for years either.

You can't put a price on good service, good health and peace of mind.

the charge I stated was for us visiting the vet, not for a call out, hate to think what they would charge for a home visit, which they are very reluctant to do anyway.   and you have to travel to the main surgery -  10+ miles in our case, no matter which
Vets that is

ERRR..............  that's £180 for a visit TO the vet,  NOT a call out !!!    I wouldn't like to think what the charge for that might be, but lottery winnings might be needed - if you could get them to come out at all.

Yep I always thank my lucky stars when I don't need a vet.

Now I am in a quandary as it seems more and more people think it a good idea to have pups checked by the vet before leaving.

I have a breed that tends not to have any congenital issues,a and would hope I am perfectly able to tell if my pups are in bouncing good health, without a vet saying so, and of course I tell my puppy buyers to get pup to the vet in the first few days.

I am considering getting the vet to health check the pups this time, but do I make my own forms up, would a vet have standard ones for litter checking.

the biggest issue is that pups rarely all go within a few days of each other.

I know that one is staying to 11 1/2 weeks, one to 9 and another to 10, so what age, should I get them seen (thinking 7 1/2 weeks) and how relevant/useful will this be, especially to those going later, the last of which is going abroad so will be vet checked again, and also with vaccinations.

How much extra is this going to add to the cost of the pups, in the end things like this, and permanent ID etc all add to the final price.

Barbara mine leave me fully vaccinated and get a thorough health check,heart,lungs,weight etc. at each visit which goes into the booklet with the vac details.

Did I read somewhere that vets now have a tick list type form for litter checks where there are no vacs involved?

mine leave me fully vaccinated and get a thorough health check,heart,lungs,weight etc. at each visit which goes into the booklet with the vac details.


What age do yours leave then - you could not possible have a pup fully vaccinated by 8 weeks or rather you could but it would have to be done again.

> I want a puppy but not at those prices.&nbsp; £200 max.&nbsp;

   

I  once had someone wanting a pup in the £150 - £200 price range.

I said, so you mean you want me to bear the cost of rearing your pet?

They go at 12 weeks, vacs at 9 and 12 weeks.

Now I am in a quandary as it seems more and more people think it a good idea to have pups checked by the vet before leaving.

I think that may be valid for those with little or no experience.  But the Vet will only check ears, eyes, mouth, clean bum and possibly listen to the heart.  You and I would know if there was anything wrong with any of our pups and would be doing all those things except perhaps listen to the heart, every day since our pups had arrived! :)

Those were my thoughts West coast, I won't skimp on anything the pups need, but don't see the point in needlessly exposing unvaccinated pups to a vets surgery.

I want a puppy but not at those prices.  £200 max.

Would you say that if you were looking for a car? Imagine the quality of a £200 car. Imagine the quality of a £200 pup.

I paid £1250 for a KITTEN not long ago -he was worth every penny. You save up to be able to afford the best and healthiest rather than take pot luck. You could get a pup from a rescue for £200 -and it could end up costing you thousands in vet bills. But at least then you've done a good deed.

>They go at 12 weeks, vacs at 9 and 12 weeks.

That's getting pretty near the end of the socialisation window, surely?

They are well socialised before they leave here and I have been complimented by buyers who have had the breed before as to how well they have settled in, the litters were only small 3/4 pups, the breed small so easy to carry and it has worked for me and them.

How has this got round to questioning when I rehome my pups and me being able to socialise them, there are others on here who keep their pups for longer than 8 weeks and I don't see them being questioned.

I'd always thought/assumed it was quite standard for the tiny breeds to go at around 12 weeks?

M.

My toy pups certainly never go before 12 weeks, more often around 14. With a litter of max 4 pups of such tiny size, socialisation is so easy -you can carry the pups with you everywhere, 2 pups per person.

>How has this got round to questioning when I rehome my pups and me being able to socialise them

Not suggestion that what you do is wrong, just that it wouldn't be suitable for all breeds. :-) For small breeds with small litters I can see it woudn't be a problem. :-) For larger breeds with larger litters it wouldn't be possible (how many people would be needed to carry twelve 11-week old pups each weighing about 20lb around and about?). That's why pups like this need to be homed well before 12 weeks, so any generalisation about leaving ages isn't helpful. :-)

If you want a crossbreed and you only have £200 to spend, go to a rescue - either get a puppy and gamble on what it will grow up to be (and to be honest, getting a puppy from a puppy farmer will give you a similar gamble!), or get an adult and you already know what it will look like.

Since (IMNSHO) most pups in rescue and young dogs, originated with puppy farmers in the first place you have no more risks with a rescue than you do with a puppy farmed pup, but you aren;t putting that money into the PF's pocket.

Now I am in a quandary as it seems more and more people think it a good idea to have pups checked by the vet before leaving.

Ahh.  But this has started because the adverts of commercial and volume breeders (ok call a spade a spade - puppy farmers)  always say "Vet checked, Vaccinated (probably only the first one at under 8 weeks) flead (sic)   but what they don't tell you is that if you keep animals in large numbers in enclosed spaces (barns, sheds)  then they are going to be more prone to disease and stress.

There is no way I would have my pups to the vets at such a young age or vaccinate then send them off to a new home.  IMHO that is just asking for trouble.

Having the pups checked by my vets means there are going to be no surprises when they get to their new owners vets as  I have heard happening, heart murmurs, hernias etc. that I would have no proof against without the vet visit which doesn't take place any earlier than they are due their first vac.

When I've kept a pup on for someone, I've had it vaccinated along with my own pup so that vaccs aren't delayed unnecessarily and then, of course, a vet check is also in order.  However, I would not have pups half-vaccinated at 8 weeks or younger.  This breed develop quickly are highly mobile and active, and need to have one to one attention from 8 weeks, so it isn't feasible to keep a whole litter until 12 weeks.   There is no way I'd take young pups to the vets and not get them vaccs at the same time - too high a risk for me.

but what they don't tell you is that if you keep animals in large numbers in enclosed spaces (barns, sheds)  then they are going to be more prone to disease and stress.


Plus puppy farmers with such huge umbers are likely to have the vet visit THEM.

I'm another one who don't take pups to the vet other than my toybreed which is fully vaccinated when they leave. Yes it would be useful to have proof that all have been checked for heart murmurs, testicles etc, but it's not a risk I am prepared to take.

Then I will stick with what I have always done and not get into 'vet checked', unless I have doubts about a pup being fully fit.

I have personally decided that I don't like this early vaccination regime  that has come in over the last 10 years or so (the worry of it being too soon for their bodies to cope with as well as not taking due to maternal antibodies from mothers that will nurse to the last moment) and prefer not to vaccinate until they are 10 weeks of age if possible, with final vaccine at 12 weeks.

My breed is of a size and mental robustness that their socialisation will not be retarded by avoiding heavy dog traffic areas for an extra two weeks, they are portable enough to 12 weeks of age to be carried.

"Vet checked" is the new tagline of all the BYBs as well. I guess it sounds very similar to "Health Tested" to the naive buyer.

There is vet checking and there is vet checking, as mentioned before. A once over for eyes, mouth, bum and ears... or temperature taken, heart listened to etc. The latter is what I got for free whenever I took my kittens in for their vaccs, because no decent vet is going to administer an inoculation to an animal that is below par on the day [and I wouldn't have allowed them to]. But do vets automatically check the heart and temperature of all puppies, especially when there are perhaps 10 or 12 all to be done?

And is there any proof of a 'vet check' having been done, especially with regard to the 'pet breeders' and BYBs?
Maybe some better advice should be given - Vet Checked = what checks precisely? By what vet? Can the seller pass on the details of the vet? and of course... the puppy may have been checked, but did it actually pass those checks!

Spot on, Ms Temeraire,

Wish we had a 'like' button

Well my pups leave me either with no vaccinations, or with the whole course, I won't allow part vaccination, as too often the new vet will start them all over again.

Funnily enough this is what happened to me with my foundation bitch.  She had already had her first vaccination (I got her at 11 weeks), but my then vet insisted on starting the course again.

Hello Bunnyfluff - I just wanted to say/add something to regarding your post.

I am a 'new' breeder. I have been in my breed since 2006, and have been working towards my recent litter for the last 2 years. When I bought my bitch (from a brilliant breeder in Wales who is one of my mentors) I saved very hard indeed. At times, before we picked her up, I questioned whether I was doing the right thing as she cost a lot of money (or so I thought) and I have 4 children who cost me alot of money too!

I'm so glad that I did my research and bought the bitch I did, from the place I did.

I went on to buy a second bitch a year later - from a friend who has been in the breed for 30 years or more. This bitch cost even more than the first, but agsin, in my eyes she was worth it.

I never fully appreciated what rearing a litter entails. I had a rough idea from my friends and mentors, I knew it would be hard work, that part didn't worry me, quite frankly I'm used to hard work.

My litter are 4.5 weeks old now. I have left the house twice in 40 days. Luckily my husband has organised his work around me and has done the school runs for me everyday - so I am very lucky in this respect. I average 4/5 hours sleep a night and I am on my feet from 7am until midnight (sometimes later) every single day. Initially I was getting one hours sleep a night, for the first 10- 12 days.
My pups are being raised in the house, in a warm, cosy and somewhat lively environment. I have needed to buy new things constantly - whether it be fresh food for Mum, bedding, tiny puppy toys, lots more washing detergent (already used ALOT beforehand). Even things like heating cost - we have oil central heating and an old cold ish house. The heating has had to be on 24/7 since the pups arrived, we don't usually have it on at night and we have a woodburner in the living room that we use, but this wouldn't have kept the pups warm in my bedroom. I think this alone will have cost £300.

I know I won't break even on this litter, not by a long shot, when you take into account stud fees, whelping box(es), puppy pen, vetbed......the list goes on and on. Obviously this was my first time so the outlay was going to be more, but my point is that no one, unless you do this yourself, has any idea if how much time, effort, love and cost involved in raising a litter - and my bitch had no complications, if she had, the costs would have been substantially more. I now see (not that I ever begrudged) that my bitches were worth every single penny I paid, if not more. I never presumed this was easy, but I never fully appreciated the amount involved. Luckily I have loved every second and it was never about the money, it was to breed my own dog for the show ring.

If you only want to pay £200, you definitely won't be getting a puppy that is raised in the manner that everyone on here raises theirs. If someone wanted one of my pups for that price, i'd be insulted.

And just to add - there is no way that any more that 2 litters could be raised properly within the space of a year, in my opinion. It's around 20 weeks, so 5 months, from the bitch first coming into season to the puppies leaving. How anyone would have time to be breeding from 4 breeds, probably some litters at the same time, is beyond me. I can say for a fact that they may be doing it - but they won't be doing it well!

Please consider what has been put in to rearing and raising a pup and then think of price accordingly. You will potentially have this new member of your family for 10-15 years.....I spend £250 per week on food for my family!!

Excellent post Pelirroja, so very true.

yes i agree pelirroja thats a very good way of putting everything!! x

Gosh I'm not being clear today, am I..

Meant to say that I'm all or nothing with puppy vaccs, they either leave with full vaccs or with none.   No half measures, as Brainless points out, the new vet will just start again, leading to over vaccination at a time when the puppy is already going through a stressfull time adjusting to a new family.

Excellent post Pelirroja,  if only more people understood how much a good breeder puts into their pups, the bybs and puppy farmers would have far fewer customers.

dill im the same when these pups are born they will be leaveing here with both vacc she is only having 3 pups so very easy to walk out with them and take out in the car...iv told new familys this and their very happy to wait :)!!