Hi

Some of you will recall that I am having trouble with my bitches breeder.  To cut a long story short:

My bith has an endorsement against breeding which I have always been happy with.  I have worked with the breeder for 13 years, I asked her permission and she gave me advice on which stud dog to use.  All very great and wonderful.

Everything was great until the litter was born.

Now she is refusing to lift the endorsement on my bitch unless I endorse my puppies, which is fine BUT she is also now insisting that I NEVER let my puppies bred or be shown. This is completely new and I don't think it is fair.

What am I supposed to do?

Will the Kennel Club listen to me?

ALL advice completely happily recieved.

If you feel she has mislead you what is to stop you doing the same to her?  Agree to her terms and once your bitches endorsement is lifted she cannot stop you lifting any endorsement on the puppy you keep for yourself (I assume you will want to endorse any you sell anyway) or from showing it.

Ditto Stooge, that is exactly what you should do - that is preposterous. Get the endorsement lifted and go from there.

What foundation breeder wouldn't be happy that their dogs grandson/daughter is doing well in the show world or wish to encourage showing - bizarre.

Has she given you a reason? For example has a health issue appeared in the line recently that she wants to guard against being passed on? If so I can kind of see her point if it isn't something that can be tested for.

That being said lifting the endorsement is entirely up to you, she can't enforce you not doing it once the pups are registered.

She wants me to sign a contract - which I assume will be enforceable?  She is going to send the contract to the Kennel Club, how will they react?

I think her fear is that my puppies are so good looking that if they are shown they will be winners.  I am not sure she expected this to be the case.

I am at my wits end. 

Has she explained why? Is she a carrier of any genetic health issues for example

There are no health issues.  She is concerned about other breeders getting 'her line'

Unless she is a joint owner on any of the dogs affected she can't determine what the new owners do with any of them. They are not required to seek her her permission to show if they are the registered owner. In fact, she can't even stop them from breeding the dogs. She may have influence over you and whether you lift the endorsement on any future progeny but I think all the rest is wishful thinking.

> - which I assume will be enforceable?

It won't be.  By law contract must be fair so can't see this being upheld even if she went to the expense of taking a case out.
The Kennel Club have no facility for putting endorsements back on and I cannot see them approving of her reasoning either.

She is going to send the contract to the Kennel Club, how will they react?

Probably laugh! The KC are not solicitors and do not get involved with such contracts, they only act on their own rulings, they have no power with breeders contract. Contracts like this need to be certified by a solicitor and made airtight.

Most breeder made contracts like this cannot be held up in a real court of law, (as much as people think they will) she has no power over your pups, she is trying to get that power but the KC will not agree with it or wish to be involved in such a contract.

Please talk to them about this there have been cases where they have lifted endorsements, allow her to send her contract to the KC that way you have proof that she did agree to lift endorsements before breeding and has since changed her mind with these add ons which no-one in their right mind would agree to, hopefully then the KC will lift it for you.

If worried you may well be able to even sign her silly contract but beforehand go and see your own solicitor with it to put your mind at rest that even on signing it, it is not worth the paper it is written on, cover yourself first so that you know what you are doing.

This is total madness...........

Thank you all for your help.  I think I need to speak with the Kennel Club - I really dont want to sign a contract as you never know what a solicitor might do with it and frankly I don't have the money to waste.

I have good family homes for all but two babies, but of course everyone will want their KC registration.

It is all so unfair, I feel like I have done everything she wants. 

Post puppy birth and so a NEW condition she asked me to endorse all babies which I did and she made me send her the green form, which she now has.  And now she has thought of another additional condition and says she will only send the green form to KC if I agree to this new condition.  What next?

Sorry to sound so pathetic but I really am losing sleep over this!

id be looseing sleep too and something like this would make me so angry!!...id speak to the kc and ask for help failing this id sign but dont do like your normal way id then deny it was mine id say shes done it her self has shes had my forms ...to me its like blackmail what shes putting you thru!! :( xx

Sorry to sound so pathetic but I really am losing sleep over this!

Who wouldn't be? :-(

Pick the phone up and tell the KC what is going on and how you are being held to ransom here.

This breeder has every right to not wish her lines to be bred by anyone else (not in the interest of the breed, but her right) which is why she endorsed her pups, that bit is fine.

But, she  agreed on you breeding, if she is so frantic about anyone else having her lines for continuation she should not have done that.

That is her mistake and her issue, what is done is done and she can't go back on it now, if none of these issues were discussed prior to the mating you do also have your own rights you entered into this mating with her prior blessing. I'm pretty sure if she refuses to lift that the KC will back you, it's blackmail.

Talk to them.  :-)

If you have endorsed the pups then the bitches endorsement must have been lifted or the KC would not allow registration let alone endorsements.

She is a control freak and you should have contacted the KC when she first started moving the goalposts.

> she asked me to endorse all babies which I did

So the endorsement is already lifted?

> and she made me send her the green form, which she now has

It is a long time since I bought or bred a puppy, is this the transfer of ownership form?  Have you signed them?  If not and the endorsement is now lifted I don't see why you cannot now ignore her and do as you think right.

If you have endorsed the pups then the bitches endorsement must have been lifted or the KC would not allow registration let alone endorsements.

Doh! How did we miss that one........  :-D

Of course..........

You don't need to sign anything hun, you're finished with her...

Well done Rhodach.......how on earth did that get missed?

The endorsement on my bitch has not been lifted, thats the problem.
I never thought for a minute there would be a problem.  She has alwasy been decent to date and so have I.  I know she is concerned now because my puppies have turned out so well and have a great pedigree - well they will if she does as she said!

Confused:

Have you registered the litter and had the pups endorsed?

carrington nothing has been lifted or reisterded as i read it x

Post puppy birth and so a NEW condition she asked me to endorse all babies which I did and she made me send her the green form, which she now has.  And now she has thought of another additional condition and says she will only send the green form to KC if I agree to this new condition.  What next?

Carrington that is what I based my comment on. Don't know what the green form is as I do mine online

Maybe it is just written in a way to be misread and it meant that Karrie just agreed to the endorsement, as the first post says differently.

Confused.........

Ring the KC Karrie, get this sorted.

Have you registered the puppies?

If you have then the endorsement must of been lifted.

> Confused:
>

Me too.  I'm hoping it will become clearer when the OP responsed to the questions in my last post.

Speak to the KC they will I am sure back your argument and even lift the endorsement because the breeder has not stuck to the original contract.

If you want to get your own back tell her if she does not do as she original said you will register them with the DLR and then let a puppy farmer who has expressed interest have them.

> If you want to get your own back tell her if she does not do as she original said you will register them with the DLR and then let a puppy farmer who has expressed interest have them

Lol I like it!!

Sorry if I have caused confusion I didn't mean to, can I blame puppy brain?  Ok so here is the position:

I asked for permission to breed
Permission was given (orally) and she even recommended stud and introduced me to the owner
I kept her informed all along and took advice at all stages about what medicine etc was needed
Had a scan as suggested, proving she was pregnant
Puppies born I informed her, everything seemed fine BUT
She said she would only release when puppies were two weeks old in case one died
Ok, so I wait two weeks (and cant advertise on KC web site until endorsement lifted)
At 2 weeks I call her and she askes me to endorse the puppies against breeding and export (which I was going to do anyhow as a protection from puppy farms)
I completed the green form (you can't register on line when an endorsement exists)
She then phoned me and told me to send her the green form and she would send it with her letter lifting endorsement to KC
I then get a letter today, with a contract in it requiring me to confirm puppies will never be shown or bred EVER
She refuses to lift the endorsement on my bitch until I sign this contract
She has my green form (as signed by stud owner)

I hope this makes things clear?  Again sorry for the confusion.

> I then get a letter today, with a contract in it requiring me to confirm puppies will never be shown or bred EVER
>

Right that makes things a bit clearer.

Firstly have you filled in the green registration form that you sent to her with all YOUR details AND signature?

Secondly even if you sign her contract it would be unenforceable to any of your puppy owners as any contract would be between you and your breeder NOT your puppy buyers. Therefore making the contract not worth the paper it is written on.

Do you have any kind of evidence hat she advised you on which stud dog to use? For instance did you repeat this conversation to the stud dog owner? Are you crystal clear that she did not at the same time as advising on a stud also say "and of course, I will insist that you endorse all the puppies if you go ahead with the mating".

In law the dog is your property and she cannot on the one hand advise on a mating and then insist you endorse the puppies- the puppies are in no way her business or responsibility, although any good breeding mentor would and should want to be involved, but that is different from control. If she wants all the pups endorsed then she should not have agreed to a mating.

Do not sign a contract. You can argue that in advising you on a use of stud dog she has made a verbal agreement to lift the endorsement on the bitch (though as others suggest the endorsement is not binding in law since the bitch is your property, not hers). However, she could never decide what you can or cannot do with the litter. The only leverage she has is to bad mouth you to your breed club and the KC. That is why I suggest you get the stud dog owner firmly on side.

I expect that if you discuss this with the KC and provide them with copies of all the paperwork you've had from her, they would probably lift the endorsement on your bitch. It must be worth talking to them, surely?

Sorry, have now read more. I'd want to know what the stud dog owner's take on the situation was? Were they clear from the outset on the bitch breeder's terms? Do they share your views on the matter?

Assuming you and the stud dog owner are singing from the same hymn sheet, I'd write a letter to the KC, signed by you both, stating the facts- that the breeder had input into the mating, advising on stud dog- even introducing you. That you kept her updated at all stages and it was down the line that she started to introduce new conditions. In short both of you went ahead with the mating on the premise that she had lifted the endorsement, a verbal agreement, and that paperwork was a formality. Your longstanding relationship of 13 years and your willingness to cooperate and communicate with the woman are all indicative that you went ahead with the mating in good faith. It could be argued that this woman misled both you and the stud dog owner. I agree she is behaving like a control freak and I cannot see the KC condoning or supporting her behaviour.

This gets worse, she has no right to your paperwork, she lifts the endorsement and then you register the litter with agreed endorsements done.

As was discussed when you brought this up a few weeks back[can't find the thread now]the stud owner unless in cahoots with your "mentor" should not have allowed the mating of an endorsed bitch, hopefully they will step up and support you now with the KC.

Did this new "contract" just appear out of the blue with no prior discussion/warning?

I hope the KC back you up and you can walk away from this, I have never heard of anything like it and it gives all those good breeder/mentors a bad name and discourage others from going down the route of getting support from your bitches breeder as is regularly suggested on here.

When you bought your bitch  from the original breeder did you sign a contract acknowledging that you knew  your bitch was endorsed?

I know someone who bought a puppy and wasn't told that she would be endorsed. Only found out when the papers arrived 2 weeks later. Person had bought the bitch with breeding in mind which the breeder knew. When the bitch was mated breeder refused to lift the endorsement. However as there was no contract signed when the bitch was purchased saying purchaser was aware there were endorsements,  the KC removed the endorsement.

I have always known that my bitch was endorsed, hence my seeking her permission and advice prior to this mating.

A bit more background - this is the second mating.  The first mating (12 months ago) did not work.  The first dog was half owned by her son.

The new contract came completely out of the blue.

I am reluctant to invlove the stud dog owner as it is a lot to ask, particulalry as she is a friend of my bitches breeder.

To be honest I am afraid of this situation, I could end up with a battle on my hands worse than the one I have now - I could end up with puppies that I can't rehome.  It is after all my word against hers, although of course her action with the first mating which failed and her action with introducing me etc should demonstrate that she gave permisison, but I would be relying on her telling the truth if the KC ask - and to be honest I am not now sure that I can trust her at all.

Again thanks so much for the positive responses.  I never once believed she would behave like this, just goes to show you how naive I have been.

Karrie, what does it actually state on your contract re lifting endorsements on your bitch?

> I have always known that my bitch was endorsed, hence my seeking her permission and advice prior to this mating.

Yes but did you actually sign a contract when you purchased her stating that you knew she was endorsed? If not the KC will be likely to lift the endorsement regardless of what the breeder wants.

Karrie ring the KC first thing Monday and put them in the picture, they will get someone to ring you back if they can't help right away, I have rung them several times in the past and they have been very friendly and helpful, learn where you stand before you do anything more with this woman and don't sign any more paperwork.

Karrie,

This is all irrelevant to your situation as your bitches breeder cannot get away with this so proceed as we have suggested with a phone call to the KC, however......... as an aside........

Can I ask what was the purpose of this mating? There should always be a reason for one or two of the pups to hopefully be potential show/working dogs and go into a breeding programme to keep lines going.

Doesn't appear that you are keeping a pup, as it has not been mentioned as of course you may well have wished to breed yourself if a pup does well, so was the mating done because your girls breeder wanted it, is the stud dog owner having a pup, was/is your girls breeder having a pup?

I don't understand why the mating has been done, if all pups are to possibly just go to pet homes only, why did this breeder push for it with her sons dog and then this other stud dog she knows? She obviously likes your bitch and is happy with how she has turned out or she would not have allowed the endorsement removal (although not yet) just miffed at why the mating at all? If no pups are going on to hopefully do something for the breed.

And why on earth did you give her the stud dogs paperwork? She seems to be in complete control of everything here.

Poor you. :-(

I don't understand why you mated your bitch when the endorsement was still in place?  If I had an endorsed bitch, I'd want that lifted well in advance of any mating taking place so I knew 100% puppies could be KC reg.  Why did you mate your bitch before the endorsement was lifted?  For me a 'verbal' agreement wouldn't be enough, I simply wouldn't risk getting a bitch pregnant with puppies which may end up not being able to be registered.

i wouldnt :( now if she had signd saying will be lifted after good health tests and other stuff ...the kc would lift it for you ,iv rang them before to make sure!!.x

I think the OP has been duped by someone she has been friends with for many years,when you are new to breeding and find someone willing to mentor you then you tend to believe everything they say even when there is a niggle at the back of your mind that something may not be quite right, you think what they suggest is the done thing and go along with it.

Hind sight is wonderful.

My first girls were not endorsed and came from the same breeder who said she would help me find the right studs as well as give my lad an assessment for me and get other show breeders to do the same[he was 1/2lb too heavy for the ring due to how much muscle he was carrying], I never dreamt of asking for all this in writing but good as her word she followed through with all she had promised, had she not then as someone new to the show scene I would have been too shy to approach those with the studs doing well in the ring and asked to use them and would have resorted to using maybe less than the best.

So in her attempt to do things right she has been treated shamefully.

As others have said you may have been TOLD about the endorsement BUT for the KC the key evidence is the contract you signed when you bought your bitch. IF you haven't had a written contract the KC will lift endorsements, if you signed a contract stating endorsed but will be lifted if x y z done and you have done these things the KC will lift the endorsement however if you contract said endorsement will not be lifted under any circumstance you are well and truely over a barrel.

Suspect KC will not get involved with private dispute if a valid contract is in place, despite the fact these terms and manner of this persons behaviour seems very unreasonable.

I'm fuming for you, really I am.. Why would you question initially someone who's been your friend for so many years before all this started?? The way you have been treated is nothing short of pure nastiness.. A friend would never do that, she is looking at your pups as objects; nothing more nothing less..

Have you thought about seeking advice from the breed club or one of them and speak to either a chairman or secretary? I don't know how much clout this woman has but they should be impartial for advice!!

You won't be selling these pups at this rate, I'd speak to the stud dog owner and explain everything, I doubt they will want pups sired by their boy to go unregistered!

If you sign the contract and providing its not written by a solicitor, you can generally see by the wording then I'd sign it, register the pups and go from there: she will have no hold of you or anyone else regards showing or any other kc activity... There are no endorsements on a registration these days for this so the owners can do what the heck yet like and the KC won't be interested!
Are you keeping one yourself to show?  The only thing you'll have from her is probably comments made if you do and show... But who cares...

Who the hell does this woman think she is?? What's so precious about lines if they can't be shared, it's all about improving the breed not keeping it to only a select few... Honestly..

I could rant all day but I won't
Good luck!!

love your post suejaw well said!! x

Thank you all and SueJaw.

If I wasn't so upset I would be livid. 

I am going to speak with the KC tomorrow.  I now have the new contract that she wants me to sign that adds to my proof that she agreed.  Her actions in helping me 'mate' three times, the first two (unsuccessful) with her sons shared dog (for which I paid cash), and the third (successful) through an owner she introduced me to must help my case.

Fingers crossed, I will update with what the KC says.

I am determined to sort this out, to keep a little girl and show her - and hope to beat her dogs hands down!  That would be Karma I think!

Again thank you all for your support, it is nice to know that you are all shocked.  It's a shame to know that people you consider friends and mentors can behave in this way.

Your girls breeder can email the Kennel Club asking them to lift the endorsements, it gets done the same night you email them, I've done it just last month so know it is possible.

Hope you get a little cracker to show - hmmm, "Karma"  not a bad name for a nice bitch :-)

>Hope you get a little cracker to show - hmmm, "Karma"  not a bad name for a nice bitch

Absolutely agree!
Wish you the very best of luck and success, what an awful and unnecessary situation to be put in.

Karrie, can you confirm what you signed with regard to endorsements, BEFORE the bitch came in to your ownership. Did you sign to say that you agreed with them and what terms were in writing that you signed to agree to?

M.

There is no endorsement to prevent a dog being shown anymore, any registered dog can be shown, and once you sell any of the pups you could not stop them being shown even if you wanted to..