Hi All

I wondered if I could pick your brains on something. Any thoughts or past experience would be really helpful.

My bitch had her first litter 23 days ago. This is our first time breeding, I have been working towards this point for the last two years with 3 mentors within the breed.

She had 2 dogs and 1 bitch. The bitch was the smallest when born and I had to work very hard around the clock to get her latching on and gain weight, but we got there. The dogs are now 2lb 1oz and she is 1lb 15oz, so she's not far behind them, sometimes the difference in weights hasn't even been as much as this.

She opened her eyes a the same times as the boys, she feeds as well as they do too and they have started weaning 2 days ago and all 3 are happily lapping it up. They also all started playing with each other at the same time.

However, the boys are now up on their feet, albeit a bit wobbly, walking around. One started walking 4 days ago, one yesterday, but for a good week before this, they were trying very hard and you could see slight development every day. She has only just started to push her upper body up with her front legs, her back legs are quite flaccid, therefore she cannot get around. She struggles to pull herself along the vetbed, she doesn't seem to have much strength at all and gets tired very quickly. She seems happy enough, biting the boys ears, having her tummy tickled, quite a friendly little thing, but no real change from day to day except maybe her neck muscles, she holds her head quite high and has a good old look around.

The other thing that is strange, or maybe it isn't and I'm worrying over nothing, is that her body seems crooked. Sounds strange - what I mean is that her body, when lying still, or trying to pull herself along, or laying suckling on her Mum isn't straight, it's in a slight 'c' shape from head to rump. It can be straightened if I correct it and move it into place, but it naturally curves again. She also tends to move her neck and look one direction rather than both. I've tried to feel along her spine to see if its curved, it doesn't seem to be but she has a lot of padding so it's hard to be sure.

I'm truly hoping that when she gains strength, that her body will 'right' itself once she's up on her feet, and that it's nothing to panic about. I had always planned to keep a bitch from the litter to hopefully show, so from the start, this little girl was going to be a keeper. We have named her Winny :)

But as time is going on, the strength doesn't seem to be appearing? Now, I know that males are generally stronger and develop quicker physically than females in most mammals, so it would be expected that they may be a bit further advanced, and as I have no other bitch, I have nothing to compare her too. Also, being our first litter, I have no past experience of pups to compare her too either.

I have spoken to all of my mentors who have all said that yes, some can develop later than others. I haven't taken her to the vets yet though as I'm sure that they will tell me to watch and wait.

So my questions are: Can some pups, especially if they started out very small (5oz), take longer to develop? Is there/can there be a big difference between some pups within a litter and their siblings? Has anyone ever experienced anything like this, or is it maybe usual in most litters to have some that are quite delayed? My mentors aren't near at hand so can't visit at the drop of a hat, I am expecting two of them for a visit in a week or two.

I have been SO committed to my bitch and her litter - I haven't left the house in 28 days now (not even to pop for a pint of milk, and I have 4 kids so I'm very lucky to have a hubby that has worked around me, doing school runs). I've been present at every single feed, day or night, so I know that the little girl has been feeding well.

Any thoughts anyone?

Thank you in advance

re size and weight boys v girls. i would expect the bitch to be slightly smaller and lighter than her silbling brothers. re eyes ect, they all start at diff points, there has to be a first and a last. however if you are concerned re her getting up on legs and conformation, perhaps it is your vet you should be asking. better safe than sorry. let us know how you get on. good luck.

btw although your mentors are not close to hand, i am sure that they would offer telephone support if you required it?

Thanks for replying tadog.

I have spoken to my mentors over the phone, they have all said that some can be later developers than others, which is what I thought anyway (my experience is more humans babies than pups - but the same basics apply), but obviously they can't actually see her. I have videoed them and put the video on youtube for them to watch.

My main concern is how 'behind' is normal. She's at least a week, if not 10 days, behind. At one point they were all the same, scrabbling on their tummies to get to the breast. Then the boys just zoomed on ahead. Everyday you could see a change, feel the strength, feel the muscle tone developing, even facially their features have smoothed out and now they look like a tiny version of the breed.

I had planned to move them into the kitchen at 3 weeks, going by what my mentors had suggested. Our kitchen is large and I'm always in it, it's the hub of the house. However, I haven't done this as yet as Winny is just not ready, she just lays there. It was about a 8/9 days ago that I started noticing the gap between her and her brothers development, but I kept thinking "a week can make a massive difference, look what the boys have achieved in a week, this time next week she should be more mobile". But the week has come and gone, and the developmental gap gets wider each day. I think this is what is worrying me - not that she is behind as such, if she was doing things that they were doing last week I wouldn't be as concerned, it's more that she isn't changing much and I don't see any improvement as the days pass. They are in a whelping box at my side of the bed. Every night I go to bed (inbetween feeds) thinking tomorrow there will be a change, every day I watch her and there is no change at all.

You are right, I think now is the time to visit the vets. I didn't want to jump the gun, she's not failing in anyway, I wanted to be patient and give her time to improve - I can be a worrier but I've remained calm and just watched and waited (which is probably what the vets would have said to do). But as I've said, the days are passing and that improvement hasn't come.

Thank you for your input - typically I'm snowed in!!! I shall go as soon as possible.

i remember in my one and only litter the biggest boy was the slowest sleepiest boy! i think he needed his extra sleep as he was the biggest. but as the weeks went on he ended the same size as the other pups. so instead of the others catching him up he slowed down to them...if you get my meaning! i am sure your wee bitch will be fine, we all worry, once you have spoken to your vet you will feel better i am sure, enjoy, they will be off before you know it and you will be wondering why you worried so much!

Yes - very true!

Thank you for your help :)

My pups are 16 days old and have been able to stagger on their feet as soon as their eyes opened at 12 days including the smaller ones.  Mine had a slow start as the bitch was not eating and had the squits badly in the first week.

I would be worried about a pup over 3 weeks that could not stand or get about on all fours, albeit in a drunken fashion.

I usually start mine on solids by this age.  What do your mentors expect of average pups in your breed re capabilities, mien now at 16 days can defecate on their own wandering off into corners to do so.

I think I'd be taking her to the vet for a check up for signs of spinal abnormalities is she is not using her back end properly.

I just got off the phone to one of my mentors, she has been in the breed for 30+ years. She's actually more surprised about the two walking, than the one that isn't. She said if there is no improvement by 4 weeks to then go to the vet.

These little guys opened their eyes at 14 days. From that point on, the two boys were trying their hardest to get on their feet. They are defecating and urinating by themselves too, although Mum still likes to do it aswell. Like your bitch, mine had terrible diahorrea for the first week but she still ate and drank well, the vets put her on some special diet tinned food for 3 days, with electrolyte sachets to add to her water.

The other worry is that the more she feeds, the heavier she'll get, then the harder it will be for her to move - if it purely is a delay but for no physical reason. She really isn't that far behind the boys (weight wise) and they have been on the go since they were around 1lb10oz

When the snow goes I will make an appointment to see my vet.

I know you can't say the breed but it does really depend on the breed  My Spanish would be walking at 3 weeks but Pomeranian's wouldn't be. I would be worried about the pups shape though, that doesn't sound right to me.

What you can do is actually hold her up in the middle when she's trying to walk and this may aid her into using her back legs more.  Just very occasionally but it may help.

That's the problem though PDAE that she's not even trying to walk :(  Also regarding her shape, from birth, if she rolled onto her back, she couldn't right herself. She still can't. She squeals away until Mum nudges her over or I put her back the right way. Is that normal? Something is telling me it's not.

They are a small breed, hound group - roughly 11lbs when fully grown.

I'm afraid I would be quite concerned about this pup. If she were mine I would pop her to the vets asap. Does she have any movement in her hind legs? Have you checked for pain response in them? Good luck with her, although alarm bells should be ringing.

Alarm bells are ringing, hence posting on here for further thoughts.

Does any of this sound consistent (for anyone in the know) with a 'swimmer'?

My first response to flacid legs would be to check for pain reflex by pinching the toes, if she feels it she should pull away from you, also if you bend her back legs to the maximum is there any resistance.

Whilst waiting to see the vet I would be doing some passive exercises to build up muscle and help circulation.

Some pups are born with an abnormally curved spine from being tightly squashed in a uterine horn but with only 3 pups that won't be the case as unless all 3 were in one side someone had to have a horn to themselves, in my first litter my only male was in the left horn and the 2 girls in the right.

Was the delivery traumatic/breech that the spine could have been damaged then?

I hope she is just slow and comes on eventually.

Keep us posted

Ok - so I have tried for pain response/reflex by pinching her back toes, like you say, and yes she pulls away.

The birth was quick and smooth. 3 pups in 1 hour 10 minutes from first noticeable push, and I had been watching her like a hawk, infact she slept in my bed (mainly digging mind you) and started pushing at 7.50am after being let out for a huge wee. Waters went on second push. There were two pups in one horn, Winny and her brother, one boy in the other. She was the second to be born. First boy born was 6.4oz, she was 5.7oz (but dropped to 5.1oz in 24hours, the other two gained) and third born was 7.4oz - he was the one with the horn to himself. All were born feet first. Alot of people 'in the know' thought there would be more as she was pretty large, but they were all good birthweights.

I've been looking in The Book of the Bitch and another great book I have called Canine Reproduction regarding my question on 'Swimmers'. She doesn't have a flat chest and her front legs aren't out to the side (quarter to three), she does however hold them at ten to two or five to eleven, but generally not underneath her.

What sort of passive exercise would you suggest?

Just to update - we're off to the vets at 5pm tonight to see what hey have to say. Will post an update once I know more.

Thanks again

good luck, hope it's nothing

Sorry missed your question re passive exercise, it just means repeatedly putting the legs through a normal range of movements several times a day.

Good Luck at the vets

Fingers crossed that it all goes well for your little girl.

Hope the vet has some good news for you.

What did the vet say?

Beginning to worry that we haven't heard back from you?

Sorry everyone - just getting a chance to sit down and type.

The vet said "wait and see"......I could have put money on them saying that, which is why I haven't been until now, I've been waiting and seeing.

He said to come back in 7-10 days. He knows it's not a fracture, he doesn't think it's neurological. He says she has a good range of motion in her hips, but basically he doesn't know. I asked about the 'swimmer', he said he wasn't sure. I've to carry on with exercises to try and strengthen the muscle.

Her right leg is limp, I was having a really good study of her earlier, it can almost be twisted back to front, but she does have a tiny bit of strength in it and she does feel pain, maybe a bit of a delayed reaction in my opinion though. But it's her right fore leg that is the problem too, she has it sticking out to the side (not 90 degrees, more 70) and can't get any purchase with it - her left side seems ok, not as strong as the boys but adequate and getting there. She also curves slightly to the right.

The vet did say she seemed chubby though, which won't be helping her mobility. That's fair enough, but they all are then if she is, and I'm not sure what I can do about that besides. The boys have managed to get up and are managing to move fine carrying more weight than she is, so I'm sure it can't just be that. This breed do have short legs though, so maybe it doesn't help, but what I can do about that, I have no idea?

Other than an X-ray, which he said would be no good due to growth plates (??) there probably isn't much that can be done for now, just wait and see. But gosh, it's so upsetting, seeing these two boys playing around and watching her lying there. The awful part is that she's the sweetest little thing, calm and quiet, gazing into your eyes whilst you move her legs for her.

I really am at a loss, other than exercise and 'wait and see', so I guess that's all I can do - that and pray that it will all be ok in the end.

Thank you so much for your support. I will keep you updated. It must be so frustrating when people come on here and then you never hear how the story ends.

Thanks for the update,sorry the vet couldn't come up with an answer, at least they have had a look at her and have a starting point for future assessment.

With the right side more affected she may have had a stroke or similar incident.

I would continue with the passive exercises of all her limbs and make notes of any changes.

Xrays at this age can be inconclusive because so much is still cartilage which doesn't show up.

Swimmer pups if you hobble their legs in the right position and hold them up can stand but she doesn't sound like a swimmer to me plus you said she hasn't got the flattened chest of a swimmer caused by lying on too hard a surface.

Keep us posted

I will do Rhodach -

no, a swimmer doesn't seem right to me either as only one side is affected. The left side is slow but moving in the right direction, I think if both sides were working well together, she'd be moving through the stages to walking now. She's been on vetbed since birth, no hard surfaces, and feeds and sleeps on her side. Her chest certainly doesn't feel flat to me.

I had no idea that they could suffer a stroke at so young an age. Is this common? I suppose anyone from any age group could suffer a stroke - I just never thought to relate it to a newborn.

I will continue to do the exercises, like you say. I've been noting down everything since the first stages of labour, a new page in a big notebook every day. Times of feeds, how long they fed for, weight gain (3 times each day at first, twice a day now) and any other thing like nails clipped, milestones etc. so I will now keep a record of vet appointments and any progress that I see.

Keep you posted

Newborn humans can suffer strokes so pups could too, a weakness in a blood vessel causing a bleed and lack of O2 to part of the brain.

could mum of lay on her at some point and caused damage to her right side?? hopeing she makes a good recovery x

It doesn't sound like the vet had much expereince of newborn puppies (so about as useful as a chocolate teapot).  She definitely isn't right. 

The thing is now what if anything can be done to normalise things, and if not what is the likelihood of an acceptable quality of life.

Certainly a second opinion with a view to management/teatmetn options sooner than later is needed.

As for pup being chubby that is what they should be as they are growing so fast I'd be worreid if they were anything but.

A vet with practical breeding expereince 9as rare as hens teeth) would be of much more use to you.

I agree pups should be chubby, they soon slim down when fully mobile, if they were to become ill they need something to fall back on so don't try slimming them down.

I would ask to see the senior vet in the hopes they know more or ring around the vets for one that has an interest in the newborn.

As to prognosis without a definite diagnosis it is too soon to say.

I know this may sound a bit ridiculous (or maybe not) that i'm so positive about this, but no, there's no way mum could have laid on her without me knowing. I haven't been away from my bitch since 24th of December (and that was to pick up my turkey), she had them on 29th and I haven't left her side (if I have it's been for a moment while they were all soundly sleeping, mum included, or she's been out of the room and with me). I only slept maybe an hour or two per day for the first 10 days of their life, and that was in the day so hubby was watching over. Since then, mum has been sleeping just outside the box at night, going in to feed and clean then back out. I've been present at every feed, i've had to be, Winny can't get to the breast.

It was my youngest daughters 4th birthday on the 10th. Originally (and without thinking) I booked the party for the 12th but then changed it to the 26th as I wouldn't leave the pups. I figured by 26th (4 weeks old) that they'd be in the kitchen and I could leave them safely for a little while. But there's no difference now, I still won't leave them alone, so my Mum is coming to watch over them whilst we have the party nearby. I've cancelled every appointment for the foreseeable future. If I'm not here, Winny won't get to feed, even if she did get to the breast, the boys would push her off. Also, if she roles onto her back, she lies there crying and can't get back over. Poor little girl - she's just not able enough.

Interesting about the stroke, I guess there's no way of knowing?

I agree, no experience at all. Before they arrived, I phoned around all the vets in the area to see if any had any breeding experience, I would have then switched her care over to them. No joy, no one had, only the basics. Luckily it went smoothly, her Mum and Grandmother whelped very easily so there was always a chance she would too - but an easy whelper wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference if a pup had got stuck! I'd saved a ALOT of money just incise anything went wrong.

I always thought they were meant to be chubby, like humans, there's nothing worse than seeing a thin baby/pup
:( Surely her weight wouldn't make that much difference to her mobility? I can see why it may be a slight hindrance, but not enough to cause this.

Yes, second opinion is needed I think, but when I can get that is another story. The more senior vet is away until next week, which was another reason why they asked me to go back in 7 days - to see him.

The main reason I don't like this wait and see business is if it is nerve damage the sooner treatment/physio is started the better the prognosis, so you need to know what physio/passive exercises to be giving.

This does not sound like a good vet visit at all. I would be looking to find a surgery who has a senior that you can speak to today. 7 days more is a long time and not wishing to sound harsh but if this problem is going to be life long then you really do need to think of the quality of life this pup will have. The longer you nurse her the harder it will be for you to let her go if it is serious.
You say she does not move her front leg much..does she use it when suckling ? Pups "pump" Mums teats to help draw down the milk and they use both front feet to do this. Does she use her bad leg? How does her Mum treat her ? some will push away a sickly pup knowing they need to give everything to the stronger pups (Cruel but true) Is Mum looking after the pup or ignoring her and just accepting the fact that you are helping her to feed?  at 3 1/2 weeks my large breed pups even though they are big are up on thier feet and toddling about.
My heart goes out to you it is such a difficult job sometimes to breed and I expect most of us will have broken our hearts over a weak pup. I wish her well and hope that she will improve but I think you really do need to try to see a vet who has more expierience. What area are you in ? maybe someone on CD is local and can give you the name of a vet they have used and trusted.
Aileen

very sad that your own vet isnt being more helpful. if it were me i would want to see a specialist, even if that meant a vet hospital trip. one way or another you need to know what is causing this.

Hi Merlot

No she doesn't paddle or pump at the breast with her bad leg, only her good one.

Mum has been fine with her. The first few days of life, mum seemed to push her around a bit, try and pick her up in her mouth etc, almost like trying to stimulate her to move etc. She would not latch on for love nor money, I started to consider supplementing with a bottle. But after ALOT of perseverance on my part, (and a lot of guidance from my main mentor, my bitches breeder, who was on her honeymoon) physically opening her mouth and putting the teat in there, then holding her in place, sometimes for hours on end, she got the hang of it and would latch on fine, that's when mum stopped roughing her up. It took about 36/48 hours of constant work, buy we got there in the end. Then she just seemed the same as the others, gained weight well, no cause for concern. It has been since they opened their eyes at 13 days that I started to notice the slight differences, then the differences became more apparent as the days went on, however, I watched and waited to see if she would catch up....no point going straight to the vet at first, it could have been just a delay in development that could have changed by the next day, or the day after, but at some point I had to draw a line, that was obviously yesterday.

She is the first one that mum toilets when she gets into the whelping box, and actually, the one that mum pays most attention to at the moment. Mum's gone back to nudging her quite a bit - it's as if she realises there is something different about her, infact I'm sure that's what it is. And when I lift the little one up onto the bed to do her exercises, mum is frantic, running around the bed looking for her.

I'm in Oxfordshire, I'll need to ring around and see if anywhere could be of help. I lost a dog of the same breed through another vets within the area negligence, so they are off the list.

The thing is, when she is awake she is totally alert. She's been trying to chew her paw today and mouthing my finger. She had a little bit of sloppy food off a spoon. And she does try very hard to move, she just can't. She tries to play with her brothers when they are near, mainly mouthing their ears etc. But when I lift her to weigh her or cuddle her or whatever, she's goes quite limp. Of course the problem is at the moment, when the boys attack her, she can't move away so they hurt her with their new teeth. And I can't put any food down for her to lap up from a saucer as she couldn't do it, so I have to hold her and let her lick it from a spoon.

I'm think the reason the vet said to wait because at her age (25 days) it wouldn't be unheard of for a pup not to be walking, in a weeks time it probably would, so if she's not walking by then it would mean something is wrong, where as right now it may just be because she's slower and until she crosses over to the point where it is abnormal, there's not much they can do?

Tadog - our vets is a vet hospital. It was the one that Rolf Harris did a programme about, many years ago now. It's a big hospital in Aylesbury, Bucks.

Really not a big fan of vets, to be totally honest. When I took my bitch for her scan, they had no clue how to use the machine, my bitch was getting a bit restless whilst waiting (wanting cuddled - not barking or anything) and the vet told me I was being to soft on her. He said he had a dog and one time it had shut its tail in the door, he paid it no attention whilst in pain and now the dog has a strong pain threshold. Each to their own I guess but you must be joking!!!!

My boy died after a very serious disease within the breed was misdiagnosed. If he had been diagnosed and operated on within 24 hours of first symptoms, prognosis would have been very good. He eventually got operated on 8 days later, after a lot of stress, upset and anguish. He died 3 days after the op as all his organs failed (He was no relation to my current bitch, this was a few years back).

I don't really trust them as far as I can throw them - but that's just my personal opinion. I would love to find one that I did trust though, and hold onto them for dear life. My experience up until now hasn't left me with much hope - not in this area anyway.

We have a few vets up in scotland that go under the vet hospital name. but tbh when i want specialist treatment i go to the Edinburgh 'dick' vet or Glasgow vet school.  it means a few hours traveling but the treament is first class. My own vets are very good, but it is a partnership, I tell them what i think is wrong and ask them to 'fix' it! lol.
i hope your wee pup is ok. awful to see them struggle.

I can't offer any advice or experience unfortunately as I have never bred but I've been reading your thread and just wanted to send you my best wishes.  I can only imagine how worrying it is for you.  Really hope you get some answers with a different vet who is more knowledgable. x

Oh dear I think your pup has some major problems. I would not have accepted your vets advice and I most certainly would have demanded a specialist's opinion as a matter of emergency. The longer this goes on undiagnosed the more likely you could end up losing her. She needs treatment now not in a weeks time. I really feel for you,you are trying so hard for her but your vet needs a rocket up him!!!

Was just about to add much the same thing myself, I have never and doubt I will ever breed but I can imagine how hard it must be watching your long awaited and planned little girl struggling like this.  I have been checking this topic regularly hoping for good news and I really am rooting for you, absolutely everything crossed!

I'm no expert but it doesn't sound right to me either. Are any of our CD experts in your area? Perhaps they wouldn't mind popping along to have a look at your girl, or you could post a video on Youtube and link to it? The breeders on here would be much more use than your average vet!

A YouTube video is a good idea. There is a few on there already. Am I allowed to post a link?

Thank you so much for all your well wishes and supportive comments. Roxylola - this is the name of my two bitches, I take it that these are your dogs names too? Great minds and all that :)

I have been following this with interest. Not for one moment am I suggesting that your puppies problem is the same as ours but I would recommend getting an x ray. One puppy we had in a litter once was always slower than the other puppies, which became more apparent once the others were up on their feet. She was always "not quite right".  To cut a long story short, after a few trips and the vet saying wait and see I insisted on an x ray which discovered her shoulder bone had not formed properly, although there was nothing visible to suggest that would be the problem. All possibilities were discussed but after looking at the x ray it was obvious an operation would not help her. It was very upsetting to make such a terrible decision but I think it would have been harder for her and us if we had taken the vets advice and waited to see how she developed. If you get an x ray at least you can tick that off the list of possibilities. I hope she improves and you can work out what her problem is. Good luck.

You are right about the names, Lola was a little irish import I ended up sort of rescuing (imported by someone I knew through work to sell who did not sell!)  When she came they thought she was a boy so when she turned out to be a girl only Lola would do!  And for Roxy, well I needed a name that worked with Lola ;)

> A YouTube video is a good idea. There is a few on there already. Am I allowed to post a link?
>
>

Yes you are allowed to post links.

Thanks baileca. You know, I think I will go ahead and get an X-ray after reading this, like you say, it's another box to tick off. Better to know, one way or another.

How on earth I will cope with such a hard decision, if it turns out to be along those lines, I do not know.

> How on earth I will cope with such a hard decision, if it turns out to be along those lines, I do not know

Whatever the outcome is, good or bad you will know that you have done all that you could. If your puppy cannot live a healthy,happy life and you have to let her go then you will at least know you made the most unselfish decision you could. You put your puppy's health and welfare before everything else.

I will keep my fingers crossed for a happy ending for you.

Thank you Lorraine. Really kind words, thank you for your support.

I have just remembered something - within the first few days of the pups arriving, Mum jumped into the whelping box and landed in her, on two separate occasions.

My bedroom is downstairs, opposite my kitchen. I have a safety gate on the bedroom doorway so that my other bitch couldn't get in. We were in a bedroom upstairs and our eldest daughter was downstairs, but before we mated our girl, we switched bedrooms so that when the time came, she wasn't stuck upstairs out of the way as she's used to being near me - well, all of us really. In my head I thought that this way I could leave the bedroom door open and see her from the kitchen if needed. It's actually worked very well. I have made her a nest out of blankets and throws at the bedroom door, about 8ft away from the whelping box. She spends a most of her time sleeping there recently, in my view at all times.

So in the first few days after giving birth she had bad diahorrea and was in and out to the toilet like a yo yo. I would open the gate and let her out/let her back in again. When she got back into the room she would bolt for the whelping box, but I still had to turn and close the gate or the other girl would have been straight in. It only takes two seconds to do this, but in the time of her running in and me shutting the gate, she'd be in the box. On two separate occasions I would get over to the box just as she was jumping in, and she landed straight on the pup, who would let out a squeal. Both times it was the girl. As the days went by she got more efficient at judging how to get in and out, but at first, not only was it all brand new to her, buts also she was frantic trying to get back to them.

Maybe mum landing on her has caused damage? The vet did ask if there was any trauma and I said no, they have virtually been wrapped in a bubble since birth. No child has been near them without my supervision, no one has held them except myself and husband. But I was racking my brain tonight as to anything that could have happened at all, it seems ages ago now and each day blended into the next through lack of sleep. But then I remembered this.

I'm going to,take a video when she is next awake and I'll post the link on here. She really has been trying so so hard earlier tonight, and getting nowhere. There definitely is a will, body just ain't playing though.

It is highly likely she could have caused spinal/nerve damage, after all puppies do die from being crushed by their Mums. 

Left to their own devices (without our constant vigilance) a mortality rate of 30% would not be uncommon, and the reasons are usually chilling, crushing, traumatic birth or a birth defect.

Nature has built in surplus, when animals have litters.

The crux of the matter is now, whether any damage can be cured, and whether any improvement will lead to the pup having a proper quality of life, and whether you are willing to keep her as she could not in conscience be sold if not fully fit.

Your heart may say of course we'd keep her, but what kind of strain might that put on your other dogs, and family.  the longer things are allowed to ride the harder the decision will be. :(

How would the vets be able to detect this kind of damage? Spinal from an X-ray? But what about nerve damage, how do they determine this?

I only ask as I need to be armed with suggestions of what course they could take, since they aren't exactly offering much help or presenting me with any options.

And yes, I was always going to keep her, this will not change that. But it all depends, like you say, on quality of life. I have plenty of time to dedicate to her, I'm at home alone all day, just myself and the dogs. But I don't want to be cruel either and keep her out of selfishness if she can't lead a happy normal life.

I really need to get to the bottom of this now though, then I can think and decide what is best - for her.