After reading your helpful suggestions yesterday I have read about BAT on the functional rewards website. My concern is that my dog will start to react when he sees certain dogs approaching even though they are a long way off and in the past when I have tried to change direction I literally have to drag him to get him to come away as he likes to keep the dog in site.  When I do eventually get him to walk he will keep looking back at the dog we are walking away from and will try and change from left to right of me to be get a better look.

The worst reaction I have experienced is when we were walking quite nicely in the lane to get home from a long walk across the fields and unknown to me another lady walking a labrador was walking behind us.  My dog sensed this, turned back, took one look at the lab and kicked off  I tried to get him to walk on but he would just keep looking back and keeping the other dog within his sight while barking and growling.  I did hope the other lady would have held back a little to give me time to get away but she just kept coming and walked serenely by us with me holding this little monster barking and growling. 2 seconds later he is back to normal as though nothing had happened, presumably because the other dog and walker were on there merry way.  Then the rest of the way home he was pulling on the lead and looking to see where the other dog was.  Surely if it was fear he would be a) glad to get away when I offered him the chance and b) wouldn't look for the other dog after he had left us behind.

So do you think this is still a fear/stressed reaction and should I try this method?  I would be most grateful for your further comments.

Of course you should try this method, it is devised for dogs experiencing what your dog is experiencing and is very effective.

>My concern is that my dog will start to react when he sees certain dogs approaching even though they are a long way off

Then you must be further away.  If your dog reacts when the other dog is at 50 yards, work at 60 yards.  With BAT, you should be aiming (ideally) never to see a dog react.  If the dog reacts, you (the trainer) have 'failed' with that repetition somewhere.  Grisha even says that often people accuse her of not working with truly aggressive dogs, because they never react in her videos or demos.  You have to watch the dog for the slightest sign of noticing and then disengaging from the other dog.  At some distance, that is possible for all dogs.  I strongly recommend you watch some of the videos, join the FB BAT group, buy the book, and learn about the method more before you try it.  It is very important that you control the proximity of other dogs and that they don't approach when you don't want them to.  You need people who are standing still with their dogs, not people walking about. 

>Surely if it was fear he would be a) glad to get away when I offered him the chance and b) wouldn't look for the other dog after he had left us behind.

Not necessarily, most fear aggressive dogs are also woefully deprived of contact with other dogs (because of their fear aggression), so there is a part of them which remains very interested and curious and wants that contact with them.  There is also what Grisha calls the 'frustrated greeter', which is not an aggressive dog - but it looks like aggression, because it emerges from their frustration about not being able to reach the other dog.  Frustrated greeters can look very much like fear aggressive dogs, it's only when they actually reach the other dog that you know what they are:  If they attack the other dog, or if they remain interested and enthusiastic about contact.  Again, all this is explained in more detail in the books and videos.

> Surely if it was fear he would be a) glad to get away when I offered him the chance and b) wouldn't look for the other dog after he had left us behind.

Not at all, what you describe is IME a typical reaction.  Firstly they want to get in there first and try and frighten the other dog with a big display of ferocity, or outright attack in a bid to disable the perceived threat before it can disable them: both require getting closer and in a frightened dog, they often don't think rationally enough to take the chance of leaving.  On top of that, as rabid says, many of them do have a streak of curiosity about them - they do want to interact but because of their fear they can't cope with it.  My Raine is a sod for this - she wants to say hello and even play, and will go up to a dog looking quite confident and excited to say hello (and indeed she is) but if the other dog responds she will snap badly and even chase them off a little bit (so I steer her away before the situation occurs and reward anything good she does, including the moving away).  All she can cope with right now is a quick sniff hello, for literally a second or two.

Also, and this ties with #2 - taking the chance to leave potentially puts them in a vulnerable position (by turning their back on the "threat"), if they don't keep an eye on the other dog, so they will focus on the dog and look for it even after it's gone, in case it comes back and surprises them.

If a dog is behind another dog, even by quite a distance, a dog like this may feel vulnerable - it is possible the fear of being chased kicks in. The dog is on a lead and so feels constrained but does not necessarily understand that the other dog is also on a lead and unable to chase them.

It helps to try to see the situation a little more through the dogs eyes. As Nikita says, your dog wants to keep an eye on the other dog and so keeps turning round to ensure the other dog is not creeping up on him, chasing towards him. Equally part of him may want to meet the other dog so there can be ambiguity too.

The thing about BAT is that it does require patience and you need to really understand the various steps involved. It is not an instant fix, although it really does work if you get it right. You could always contact Grisha/website and see if there's a qualified practitioner near you.

> the 'frustrated greeter',

I sometimes get this with my youngsters, they always want to greet other dogs, but other dogs are understandably likely to be intimidated by her mates, when I walk the whole pack together, so I tend not to alow them to greet.

At shows where there are hundreds of dogs they are in their element as I generally never have more than two, and of course the other dogs are also used to dogs in number.

I would have done exactly what the lady with the lab did, I would have tried to give as much space as I could but from personal experience I would rather have a dog ahead of me than behind and if I could see it was bothering yours I would have been trying to get ahead and out of the picture quickly.

Thank you, I'm so glad I asked this question.  All your answers make sense and I can see now that I was totally misinterpreting the situation.  For the first time I feel hope that we can make some progress.  About to download the B.A.T. book from Amazon to my iPad and will try not to make too much of a nuisance of myself asking lots of questions.

Would love to find a trainer in my area - Somerset, nearest towns Bristol and Bath.  If anyone knows of someone they could recommend I would love to hear from them please.

Hi Kathleen,

7 yrs ago I was where you are at now with my dog (re-homed Siberian Husky) he arrived to me a charging,lunging,leaping, baying ASBO dog!
   Today, I can walk him anywhere (as I've mentioned on the site before even in Central London through thronging crowds) he walks loose leash with manners and consideration and greets other dogs calmly.
    He is now an absolute joy to own and we often get complimented on walks as to how obedient he is ( a Husky!!? And reformed ASBO one at that..Who'd a thunk! ;-) )

So it can be done!
But for that reasonI am going to strongly disagree with everyone thus far
I urge you most emphatically to get in touch with an APDT or APBC trainer or behaviourist. These two organisations are the most highly regarded in the UK for the use of positive training methods
Assosciation of pet behaviour counsellors UK
Assosciation of pet dog trainers UK

Reading books and articles alone will not work, I can tell you that now from bitter experience!

I had lived with working dogs all my life and had even just returned to the UK after a stint of working in a sled dog racing kennel in N.America. I considered myself very 'clued up' on dog behaviour (was the first Member here to introduce Turid Ruggas' calming signals for dogs to this forum)
          But I also thankfully realised that sometimes with behavioural problems the owner often gets into a 'can't see the woods for the trees' situation.
        I strongly believe (and have evidenced) that the owner needs to have another pair of eyes on this situation (NOT the eyes at the other end of the lead)... An educated eye can observe the subtleties in both dog and owners action and body language and assess the situation and behaviour in order to correctly diagnose and begin a training plan of development!
      Also an APBT or APBC trainer can manage training sessions, in which their 'stooge' dogs will be used... I think it is wholey unfair of an owner of an unpredictable/untrained dog to use everyone else's dogs as unwitting stooges in their training! Why should the Lab owner have 'hung back' and possibly subjected her own dog to more stress and eyeballing just because you could'nt manage your dog? (I don't mean to be lecturing here! This is what my trainer said to me!! And it was a wake up call!!~ I know exactly what your going through)
       There is NO substitute for the eyes, ears and real time, As it happens advice from a good trainer.In my 8 years as a member here I have lost count of the people who have posted for behavioural advice but, for what ever reason, have not worked with an ethical accredited positive method trainer or behaviourist and still have ongoing problems with their dogs :-(
     The cost of an APDT or APBC trainer is much less than the cost of vet bills from injured dogs in a fight!!

I wish you every luck, it can be done!
But for everyone's sake, yours, your dog and all the people you meet on walks and their dogs I hope my advice and experience will give you hope and get you picking up the phone today.

You both can do it, set your dog up to succeed :-D I did and life is sooooo much better when your dog can go everywhere with you and be bombproof!

Well, it's not a bad thing to work with an ABPC behaviourist by any means - but I know of many people who have achieved just as much on their own, through reading the books and watching the videos.  Proof of that fact is all over the internet and in every BAT forum and Facebook group you look at.

Of course not everyone can learn by books and videos - some people will buy them and then not even watch them.  Some people won't follow them properly or read them thoroughly.  And so on.  Unfortunately the fact is that the vast majority of dog owners whose dogs have problems want someone to come along and wave a magic wand and change it all instantly.  Or a book which is going to tell them a magic secretly fast method.  When they realise it's not going to be a quick fix, they give up. 

However, that's by no means everyone.  There are many people who cannot afford an APBC behaviourist but who can afford books and videos and are prepared to put the work in. 

Furthermore, I have many ex-clients who have worked with APBC behaviourists and found that after one - very expensive - initial consultation, they are then left on their own.  Unless they pay for further expensive consultations, on an ad-hoc basis.  The ongoing support and momentum is frequently lacking and they soon find themselves on their own again.

> I think it is wholey unfair of an owner of an unpredictable/untrained dog to use everyone else's dogs as unwitting stooges in their training!

Using other dogs in this way is a key part of BAT and is recommended by Grisha whenever you spot other dogs around.

The one thing that DIY methods cannot do which I think is actually a principle key to unlocking this particular behavioural problem is:

When you work  with a reputable APDT or APBC trainer then suddenly you are not alone in the world,having someone with you on your walk is such a boost of confidence and calming to the owner ~ with the best will in the world, even when the owner knows not to... Stress is always communicated down the lead. Often it can just be plain embarrassment that stresses the owner out rather than any transmitted fear... But the end result to the dog is the same.

Having someone (especially someone who will remain calm and encourage the owner and dog in the right way) with you is priceless even if it is just to laugh with after wards or to communicate with other dog walkers as the owner is busy managing or training their dog!

Kathleen the decision is yours, but as an Instructor myself (teaching Police fire arms officers... Where training methods *are* a matter of life and death) I cannot stress enough the importance of a 'whole picture' cover everything training approach.

And also by virtue of my job role I believe a statement is not much without evidence: A brief search of the behavioural forum will show owners who have been posting for the past 3,4,5 etc years on this forum asking for advice on dogs that still have issues 3,4,5 etc years on!? They've read the books can quote Pryor, Donaldson et al very eloquently but still have 'iffy' dogs!??.... As Rabid says there are those that do, I've not seen any (other than breeders and trainers) on here in my 8 yrs of membership. So maybe it's 50/50.... A gamble I'd not take personally, especially for my own and my dogs happiness.

I'm afraid I've never understood the 'cant afford' argument, surely all pet owners have a bit put aside for eventualities... Most Breeders on this site often cite this as a reason to refuse a puppy owner! ~ I know these are difficult times for all but somethings just should have money spent on them.
    To be honest the money I paid for a 2hr APBT session cost much less than I've spent books and DVDs... (Of which granted I have 3 bookshelves full ;-) ) my trainer was never 'on the clock' we often had 2 and a half hours to 3 hours for the money! Of which we'd be sat on a park bench going through a debrief,talking about a particular training article or laughing at another dog walkers bright pink towelling track suit .... I got soo much for my money support, confidence and camaraderie, my trainer became a friend for life who I still see, socially not just at training seminars.

>Key part of BAT and is recommended by Grisha

Rabid, are you going to Milton Keynes in Feb?
Will have to say hello! Be good to put a face to the name ;-)
Kathleen, Rabid is an APDT trainer.

No, I won't be at Milton Keynes in Feb, but I should be doing one of the upcoming BAT courses in Europe in the next year.

I don't disagree with anything you say, but I would put a different emphasis on the points you make.  It sounds like you had a fantastic experience with your particular behaviourist, which is great.  But not everyone does, unfortunately.  I don't want to become one of the APBC-bashing people there are on here (since they are associated with lots of other things I wouldn't want to be associated with!), but many ex-clients of mine haven't had anything like that kind of experience and I'd hazard a guess that it very much depends on the particular behaviourist you work with and not just on them being APBC accredited and therefore wonderful by virtue of that fact.

I'd also say that many of the positives of working with a behaviourist which you mention (feeling not alone, having someone to recommend articles to etc), can be gained equally from joining BAT groups on FB or Yahoo and from being part of the BAT community. 

As for people asking advice and still having dodgy dogs afterwards, there are also many people who appear here and have worked with an APBC behaviourist and still have 'iffy' dogs with issues.  It is notoriously difficult to solve these problems, whatever approach you take.  It doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the approach or method used.  But I don't think a behaviourist is the only approach there is, certainly not if you like reading books and doing your own research and putting together your own training programme, and if you have motivation to keep it up - and to seek help from others using the method when you need to.

On balance I agree with Husky Gal. That is why I suggested the poster try to find a certified BAT trainer.

Some dog wise people may be able to bone up on the methodology by reading and watching videos, but I think it is better to have an expert head on board because things do get missed by the owner and absolutely no method is good for absolutely any dog, so some tailoring may be needed. On balance it's better that is done by someone who has a good overall knowledge of dog science and training methods.

Rabid I agree with you that it is not about behaviourists having a box of magic tricks and instant fixes; some problems are so difficult as to be almost insoluble. There might be a solution that could be effected, just not with that particular owner. I do think that generally there is great value in the owner having a guide, someone to feed back to and someone that knows enough to tweak and tailor the theory to fit the individual case.

I hope I am not doing anything wrong by asking this, but I went on to the website to try and find a apdt in my area i.e. Somerset, and found a lady in Glastonbury.  When looking at her website she had put a link to champdogs and I was wondering if this was 'meant to be'.  Any ideas please?

There was also a school with 2 or more trainers who were members of the apdt. Both are about 45 minute drive from where I live which isn't a problem and I am fortunate enough not to have to worry about cost.  More important to me to get the right one.

What I have in mind is to read the book, watch the video and get the help and support of a good trainer and give my boy all the time and effort he so deserves to help him, and I realise its not going to happen overnight.

In the interest of an accurate debate:

Rabid, I did not use a 'behaviourist' as you have stated.
If you take the time to pull apart a person's post, then please do the common courtesy of reading it! Rather than imprinting your own agenda on it.
You will see I have put (in the post you clicked reply on):

>my trainer was never 'on the clock'.....

However I will concede that with my speed typing I had also put:

>I paid for a 2hr APBT session

I did of course mean APDT!

I have used an APDT trainer and know many APDT trainers. I have chosen to include APBC as again although never having occasion to use I know (personally) many APBC counsellors. ~ there are of course many other reputable trainers out there but I only ever give advice on the Internet of organisations/products/methods etc that I have had personal real time experience of and can whole heatedly endorse.

You have stated:

>I don't want to become one of the APBC bashing people there are on here....

Then don't!!
( reminds me of those people who say 'I'm not being funny but...' And then go on to be just that ;-))
Consistently through my posts I have listed APDT always together with APBC... Yet you have latched on to only the APBC part of my posts

I have just done a Champdogs site search for APBC and I cannot find a single thread that has someone say they have used an APBC behaviourist unsuccessfully... I'm quite sure there must be some (every organisation has some duds) but you cite there being 'many' and I can't evidence that??

appologies to Kathleen the OP for interrupting the flow of sound advice in her thread with this... But I am a great believer in fair and accurate information exchange. (the ethos of this site)

>What I have in mind is to read the book, watch the video and get the help and support of a good trainer and give my boy all the time and effort he so deserves to help him, and I realise its not going to happen overnight.

:-D I really think that's the wisest line of action!
I'm sure CD members in your area may well be able to recommend APDT ( or equivalent) trainers that they have used and are happy to recommend.

I wish you the very best of luck, do please keep us posted of how you get on!
And if you need a kindred spirit to sound off to your more than welcome to PM me for a 'oh gawd!! Yeah mine did that too... Yeah I remember my dog doing that!!' Chat then don't hesitate!

> I went on to the website to try and find a apdt in my area i.e. Somerset, and found a lady in Glastonbury.  When looking at her website she had put a link to champdogs

I think I know who you mean as she is local to me, but I have no experience of her training. She is on Champdogs in the breeders section as she breeds two giant breeds.

HuskyGal, yes I did think you were talking about someone registered with the APBC, because you were talking about behavioural work with this person. 

There is a lot of difference (in terms of training) between an APDT trainer and an APBC behaviourist. 

Most people registered with the Association of Pet Dog Trainers would refer to themselves as trainers.  Most people registered with the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors would refer to themselves as behaviourists.   The clue is in the title...

Of course that doesn't mean that some behaviourists can't provide training and some trainers can't offer behavioural work.  Nevertheless, to join the APDT you must complete a written assessment and then attend an oral and a practical test - of dog training.  Not of behavioural work.  To join the APBC, you must have a recognised postgraduate qualification in animal behaviour and you must then complete many hours of behavioural work - supervised, before doing so unsupervised.  You are therefore assessed on your abilities as a behaviourist - not a trainer.

Yes, there is some overlap because you are always dealing with how dogs learn, but there are also significant differences and a big difference in emphasis.

Personally, I would have better hope that an APBC reg behaviourist had the skills I needed than an APDT dog trainer.  Because that is what the organisation was set up for, what the people listed there have been assessed as (behaviourists), and what the specialism of most people registered to it, is.

That's not to say that you can't find an APDT trainer somewhere, who has the required skills to help you (it sounds like you did), but that would not be representative of most people registered with the APDT.

There are many posts around where people say they have previously 'seen a behaviourist' but still have difficulties with their dog's behaviour.  I don't have time to search for them now, but I will.

Of course you can find someone to help you in unexpected places, and they may not even be a member of either the APBC or the APDT.  But statistically, I believe you stand a better chance of finding someone if you choose from the APBC, for the reasons mentioned above.  Of course, you can also read the words of the most skilled and talented behaviourists and trainers around (whatever their registration) by buying their books, and watching them at work in videos...

Has the OP tried Jenny Gould? Excellent trainer (has the Zakanja GSDS and will be appearing at Crufts with her new GSD Obedience Champion), think she is somewhere near Bristol and she is definitely on FB.