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Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Growling and Lunging at other dogs
- By Kathleen [gb] Date 19.01.13 16:15 UTC
My male staffie is now 4.5 years old and for the past 18 months when walking him on lead he has growled and lunged at other dogs.  Not all dogs, usually dogs larger than himself, never smaller dogs.  He walks well to heel and in all other ways he is very well behaved and is always quick to learn. When it first started I will admit to feeling upset and was probably sending the wrong message down the lead but I do consider that I am now more relaxed about it.  However, I am upset that it is limiting our walking and holding us back from doing a lot of things and visiting places I would like to take him.  I have been trying to get him to "look at me" and feeding him treats when another dog is passing but we haven't mastered it yet.

I have been to a trainer who says that my boy is not nasty aggressive but is fearful of other dogs approaching and getting in first.  He is also partly protecting me. The trainer has said that I have to start with changing his attitude at home and making him work for everything, making him sit or give a paw before I feed him etc.  He also said that my boy (although I consider well behaved), is not showing me full respect and thinks he is in charge.  He can cope with being 'in charge' in the house but when we go out in the big wide world walking he finds it stressful having to be in charge and this is why he his behaving badly to other dogs.

He has advised me to use a half check chain and correct him with this when we meet another dog and to walk on very quickly.  Not so easy when you have a staff pulling, lunging and growling and you have to pull him along to get going.  He feels that once my boy realises his position in the household ie below me (there is only the two of us) he will stop this behaviour and won't feel it necessary to be in charge!  I'm not convinced this method is the right one and don't feel happy using a half check.

My boy has been castrated (for health reasons) and I am an experienced staffie owner but this is the first dog that hasn't been dog friendly. He always walks nicely to heel using a harness until he sees another dog approaching.  I should also mention that he has been attacked twice when on lead by a neighbours dog who was off lead but the neighbours dog started it not mine.  Oddly my neighbour has exactly the same problem with his boy.

Has anyone else had this behaviour from their dog and managed to control it and would be willing to share their experience with me please?  I would love to get to the stage where I can walk past another dog without mine kicking off.
- By Goldmali Date 19.01.13 16:31 UTC
Oh dear -please forget most of what that trainer said. Dogs don't try to be in charge of humans, it doesn't work like that. Very old fashioned thinking that has been disproved good and proper. If you physically jerk on a half check every time he sees another dog, he's going to get worse as he will associate seeing other dogs with something unpleasant happening. I do however agree that it may well be a case of him being worried about dogs bigger than him (especially after being attacked) and therefore getting in first telling the other dog to move away -that is often the case. Have you tried using a headcollar? I realise they can sometimes be difficult to fit on a Staffie but it can work. If you are able to gently turn his head away, then avoiding eye contact with the other dog, the chances of him not barking and lunging are much better, and you can praise and reward afterwards.
- By furriefriends Date 19.01.13 16:39 UTC
Interesting comments from Goldmali when I read Kathleens post and the advice from trainer including explanation of why he behaves like this I thought I had written it myself. This is exactly my problem although not just on lead. I will watch with interest
- By rabid [gb] Date 19.01.13 16:54 UTC
Kathleen, I echo what goldmali says.  I would not listen to that trainer's advice.

Instead I suggest you check out:

Patricia McConnell's book 'Feisty Fido', which has excellent advice for leash reactive dogs.

Also BAT (method addressing on-lead aggression) created by Grisha Stewart:  functionalrewards.com  Book available from Amazon, if you search for Grisha Stewart there - but watching videos really gives you a better idea of how to apply it.
- By Nikita [gb] Date 19.01.13 18:13 UTC Edited 19.01.13 18:16 UTC
BAT is well worth looking at, I use it a lot with dog-reactive dogs and it is very useful and effective.

First step for me would be changing his perception of other dogs - a good way to start that is 'open bar/closed bar': basically, when another dog comes into his view, feed him lots of goodies (bar opens) and as soon as the dog goes out of sight, the treats disappear (bar closes).  This must be done at a distance greater than that at which he starts to feel worried (as indeed all work on this issue should be).  That will start giving him a positive association with other dogs.  BAT will teach him to use his body language properly and also that walking away is an option, and a very rewarding one.  You want really top-notch treats - meat, cheese, anything really super-duper.

Another technique is to reward him just for glancing at other dogs - I do this a lot in recall training but I have my dog-reactive clients use it too.  It makes looking at dogs fun and lets the dog know that it's allowed too (and relaxes them because they are able to keep an eye on the other dog - a lot of dogs can be more worried if they aren't allowed to watch as they can't see the other dog getting closer, or at least worry that they can't).

On walks use escape opportunities whenever you need to - whether it's a change in route, ducking up a driveway or hiding behind a car while a dog passes on the other side of the road.  Try to avoid using routes where you will be in a narrow point (such as an alleyway) if you're likely to pass other dogs so you minimise the chances of finding yourself nose-to-nose with another dog.  If you do get caught, as GM says, try and keep his attention and just get past quickly and a headcollar can help with that.

Any time at all that he doesn't react to another dog, reward it.  And very importantly - if he does react, do NOT tell him off or correct him.  When he's reacting to another dog, he will be totally focused on it and anything that happens to him in that moment can be associated with that other dog.  So if you tell him off, next time he sees a dog he's going to be thinking "OMG there's a scary dog and OMG I'm going to get told off, I'd better get rid of it quickly..." and so the aggression escalates.

Be aware of your equipment too.  Anything that can tighten on him or hurt him (choke chain, half check, no-pull harness) can be associated in that way too and I have personal experience of this happening with a no-pull harness - my first dog-reactive dog couldn't wear a harness of any kind for nearly a year as she'd associated the pain of it tightening when she lunged at dogs with those dogs, so any harness made her aggression considerably worse.
- By Carrington Date 19.01.13 18:38 UTC
Also to back up everyone else here, the 'trainer' you spoke to is old school with a lack of understanding of how a dog actually thinks and behaves.

You're not new to the SBT and you say you have had no previous problems with others, this has started due to your dog being attacked, it is so, so, important to protect our dogs from these situations you need to have eyes in the back of your head, but unfortunately this has happened the fear is imprinted and your breed is a fighting dog, not likely to roll over and submit, which is why so many people have dog aggression problems with this breed.

The breed alone is going to scare to death other dog walkers especially if he is tugging and lunging to get to other larger dogs, the first thing I would do is muzzle him, accidents happen, he only needs to pull you over or tug when you are not ready to break free and he could become dangerous to innocent medium/large dogs, after you have muzzled him you can then begin trying to desensitise him from what probably is fear aggression.

You can begin this by making him sit and wait when other dogs who he is likely to single out for aggression are coming close, over time (I wouldn't expect it for a while) reward him when he behaves himself.  If he is ok with smaller dogs socialize him as much as possible.

Play training games with him to keep him occupied on yourself, and it may well be worth (with a muzzle to start) joining an APDT training class, just to help him to re-socialize with larger dogs.

Unfortunately, no matter what you do, you may not be able to change things he may always pick and choose his own dog friends and be aggressive to others, with a muzzle you are protecting other dogs and keeping yours out of trouble and safe too.

Showing him who is boss absolutely will not change fear aggression, or the implanted reasoning that he needs to fight to survive, our dogs are moulded from experiences sometimes that can be changed but sometimes it can't............

Wishing you luck and hoping with some hard work it can be rectified. :-)
- By Kathleen [gb] Date 19.01.13 19:35 UTC
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply and for your very wise advice,  I feel so much better after reading them.

I have only been following the trainers advice for 2 or 3 days and just knew in my heart of hearts that it was wrong.  If an animal is scared surely the last thing to do is hurt him by tightening a chain around his neck or giving him a good telling off as I was told.

I fully appreciate that a staffie behaving this way is a very scary experience for other dog walkers but in one way i'm lucky that I live in a small rural village and most of the other dog walkers know me and know that I have my boy under my control, but take onboard that an accident could happen and he gets away from me.  The downside of living in a village is that I have lots of lanes to walk and I have become a master of dodging and changing direction due to the lanes being narrow!  Interestingly if a dog walker stops to talk to me and my dog realises that his behaviour hasn't forced them away, he chills out and will sit quietly whilst we have a chat. But most think they are helping me by hurrying away, or understandably want to protect their dogs by getting them out of the way.

By pure coincidence I read 'Feisty Fido' this week and feel happier adopting this technique, although I suspect it will take a long time.

So my plan is to try a head harness, (usually he wears one of the ezydog ones not non pull) go out armed with loads of high value treats, possibly try a muzzle and ask some local ladies with laid back dogs to walk a little with us.  I will also treat him for looking at other dogs whereas before I treated only when I could manage to get him to look away, but holding his look long enough for a dog to pass was proving difficult as unfortunatley he reacts from a very long distance away.  Will also look up BAT with interest.

But most of all I will be ignoring the Trainer

I love my dog more than life and will do everything I can to help him enjoy our walks more and if I can't manage to change him I will live with it whilst being a responsible dog owner, and love him just the same.

Thank you again as all help and advice appreciated.
- By furriefriends Date 19.01.13 20:40 UTC
Just to add nikita has some good comments on her advice have been doing similar with my reactive boy. Way to go but at least we are working on it. I have a headcollar and after trying many like the phoenix training fleece lined one made to measure and only about 10 pounds
- By LucyDogs [gb] Date 20.01.13 11:09 UTC
If like you say you're in a small village and know many of the others, it might be worth going out without your dog so you can chat to some of the ones who are hurrying away, and explain your plans for improving his behaviour. Then they'll know how best to deal with it when you do bring him out. :-)
- By Nikita [gb] Date 20.01.13 20:42 UTC
Just a quick note, if you do muzzle him - do NOT use a fabric/mesh muzzle under ANY circumstances, they are not suitable.  Basket type only and the wire ones are I think a better option for this sort of situation as the gaps are often a bit bigger allowing you to get treats to him.
Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Growling and Lunging at other dogs

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