I haven't disputed this fact but there are four billion tonnes of food wasted on this planet each year, no doubt a good proportion of that are slaughter animals, intensive farming has created this.   Animals born, reared, slaughtered and not needed so they are classified as waste.

Intensive farming is a by product of consumer led fueled by the food retailers which has lead to this.

Also the increase in the population plus continual change (normal in evolution)to the way human life develops because of things like IT , scientific advances , developing tastes and preferences in the way we eat and live.

Zan - my partner and I run a small, organic farm at the edge of Dartmoor. My cows don't eat grain. They are Dexters, a native breed, and they grow slowly by eating only grass (as silage during the winter) which grows on our land which is designated as "severely disadvantaged". We couldn't grow grain up here! Our cattle grow more slowly and are slaughtered later than a lot of commercial breeds. We rarely slaughter them before 30 months. Partly as a result of this, and partly because of their breed, they make very tasty meat. And the meat is healthier for not having been fed grain.
We also have sheep. We have to lamb later than lowland farms as our grass doesn't start to grow until later up here. We feed them a minimum of concentrate - partly because organic concentrate is very expensive!
Our meat is dearer to produce than mass produced meat. My animals have the best life I can give them. They live with family members that they have known all their lives. I will not send my animals to market - I want to know who is buying them and I do not want them to experience the stress of a market. They travel to the abattoir in pairs (to reduce stress) and the abattoir is not far away and they are slaughtered within minutes of arriving, usually before we've finished filling in all the paperwork.
Not all people who keep farm animals are uncaring!

>Do you all really want an animal to die simply because you enjoy the taste of its flesh? Could you kill it yourself?

I have done, yes. I want food animals - in fact all animals - to have a healthy life and a quick, painless death.

Without farmed food animals for human consumption we would have to provide meat for our dogs ourselves (roadkill wildlife for most) because it would be far too expensive to raise animals purely for pet food, and arguably more immoral than raising them for human consumption. Food animals can thrive on land which is impossible for growing food plants and which would otherwise be derelict scrub.

> I haven't disputed this fact but there are four billion tonnes of food wasted on this planet each year, no doubt a good proportion of that are slaughter animals, intensive farming has created this.   Animals born, reared, slaughtered and not needed so they are classified as waste.

As I said Christine, we all need to change our attitude to meat, eat a lot less and generally regard it as a luxury food but if we stopped eating it all together we would be denying a lot of animals a reasonably contented life.

> Animals born, reared, slaughtered and not needed so they are classified as waste.

I'm still wondering what happens to dead horses.

Surely the old saying that they 'go for dog meat' can't be true? I can buy beef, chicken, lamb, venison, rabbit, tripe, even other game for my raw-fed dogs from all the major suppliers - I can get pork offcuts and bones from the butcher. But how would I go about buying horse meat for them if I wished to? Is horse the "meat and animal derivatives" listed on cans and kibble sacks, of dog foods that are otherwise labelled as "with beef" or "rich in chicken"?

If there is one thing this horse meat issue has done, it's to make people think and ask themselves whether they would eat horse meat if it was available (which it isn't). I would think a lot of people will decide they would, if they could. My mother was born only a few years before the second world war - she probably has had horse meat in the past, whether she knew it or not, especially as rationing didn't end until the 1950's.

Edited to add - I was once in Calais on a late friday afternoon, and as we drove along the side streets there were queues of people outside the Horse Meat Butchers (you only buy horse at a horse butcher, so no chance of fakery there), waiting to buy their joint of horse meat for a friday night roast which I understand is commonplace.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">As I said Christine, we all need to change our attitude to meat, eat a lot less and generally regard it as a luxury food but if we stopped eating it all together we would be denying a lot of animals a reasonably contented life.

From the stories I have heard - first hand - from an ex-EHO, their time in the abattoir is far from reasonably contented.  

There is too much food produced in this world, the obesity rates in the Western world are alarming, this needs to be rectified. 

>I'm still wondering what happens to dead horses.

It varies. The hunts certainly use some. If they're put down by injection they're either incinerated (some pet crematoria will do individual cremations for grieving owners) or sometimes buried on the owner's land. It wouldn't surprise me if others which are shot end up in pet food, and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

>Around here it still is the tradition for the horse that ran with the hounds to be fed to them. The hunt come out and shoot the horse and take it away to slaughter for the hounds.

>Good grief, this is the 21stC we're talking about?

Sorry that will teach me to reply on my phone and not do a detailed reply!!!!
I meant at the end of their life. Not just because they don't hunt anymore!
A few examples,
A horse breaks its leg in the field, a break that cannot be fixed, the huntsman comes out and shoots the horse there and then and take the body away. Instead of the vet euthenasing it and then having to either dig a big enough hole or cremate it.
A horse that is old, like the one I knew, that a vet advised needed to be PTS, instead the huntsman comes out etc etc etc.

So the horse is dispatched quickly, in their own field and taken away to be fed to the hounds.
I would hazard a guess it is not done as much now as people are more sentimental these days, and with the increase of insurance paying for things.
It is actually financially a good move as the hounds get fed good meat that the hunt doesnt have to pay for, and the owner doesnt have to pay for the vets euthenasia or for cremating a huge horse.

Lea :)

> or sometimes buried on the owner's land

Yes - a friend lost her horse just before Christmas. The huntsman came out to shoot the horse and they got a digger in and buried the horse on their land.

> That's fine. Personally I could eat neither, but if you are clear about finding both tasty that is up to you. It's the hypocrisy of people who get upset at the thought of eating dog or horse but happily eat cows and pigs that I just don't understand.

It's got nothing to do with what species something is but whether they lived as pets or not, to my mind that's like eating a friend. For example, I have eaten rabbit but I wouldn't eat someones pet rabbit.  My in-laws raise cattle and sheep but I wouldn't have eaten Mary, Bertha and Daisy and neither did they, their lambs were sent for slaughter but the pets lived long and happy lives until the vet had to come and help them on their final journey.

Having a different viewpoint to you does not make me a hypocrite, I am perfectly clear of what is acceptable to me and what is not.

> Having a different viewpoint to you does not make me a hypocrite, I am perfectly clear of what is acceptable to me and what is not

I agree :)

Zan, I can understand you eat the way you do because of your beliefs but what I would like to know is, What do your carnivores under your feet eat? Have you forced a different speicies to alter their diet for your beliefs regarding meat eating or are you a contradictory in terms? Is it OK to feed your dog meat? And support that mass-produced pet food industry?

I am not for nor against meat.  I eat meat.  I have killed my dinner(rabbits mainly as it's all I can catch!lol).  I have no qualms eating any type of animal at all.  I am not really knowledgable enough to butcher larger animals but, if taught, have no problems.  What I DO have an issue with is waste.  If you killed it, don;t waste a single bit.

Also, horse in a burger wouldn't bother me either.  It's the fact that it's not what it says on the label.  This is why you should support your local butcher/farmer.

PS  Ridgelover, if I come back as a farm animal, can I get space in your field.  I WISH you were closer.  Sounds lovely, humane and delicious!! :)

Thank you, Cracar :) My partner and I do our very best to give our animals the best possible lives - and deaths.

(Tagging on at the end, not reply to any specific post.)
It's probably a cultural objection to eating horse-meat, and welfare concerns around how it is reared and slaughtered would be very important.  We have no tradition in this country (or in Ireland either) of breeding and rearing horses specifically for food and think of horse-meat , if we think of it at all, as just by-products of the hunting/leisure/pet/racing activities which are mostly exported.  Other concerns would be traceability, freedom from residues of medication and from parasites.  Also, the long legs and necks of horses would surely make them more like deer than cattle or sheep when it comes to transport and slaughter.  Unbroken or rarely handled horses can be very afraid when transported.

It's been interesting to trace the widening of availability of fish, bird and mammal species in pet food as more species have become intensively reared for the human table (and there are consequently off-cuts which humans do not like to eat).  Whether or not horse-meat is used in pet food is a question which won't be resolved until we get *proper* labelling of pet food, but given the pressure of price-sensitivity on the manufacturers it has to be at least possible.

For me, its not the issue that the burgers have been 'contaminated' by horse meat  but the fact that something got into them that shouldnt be there. If horsemeat can be slipped in without us knowing then what else goes into our food that we are unaware of?? Makes you wonder what goes on in the factories where food is produced :shock:

We had some in the freezer and ate them last night. Tesco's own quater pounders. Tasted fine! I wouldn't have eaten them or fed them to my family if they had said it was dangerous, but they said it was safe.
We are all fine today. And i wouldn't worry about eating horse as long as it wasn't a family pet horse! . :-)
lea :-)

> their time in the abattoir is far from reasonably contented.  
>

Fair enough, I have no doubt that is briefly stress full although, as I understand it, much has been done in recent years to reduce that, but of course I meant their life before the very short time in the abattoir.
 
You seem to have side stepped the point that they would not get a life at all probably if we did not rear them for meat :)

Fond though I am of my cows and sheep, I couldn't afford to just have them as pets!

I think we all have to live with our own morals. Mine  ensure that I only eat meat from local producers (Pity your not closer Ridgelover...do you deliver to South Somerset ??) It is meat that is 100% tracable and I know it has been produced in clean and caring surroundings. The meat from my supplyer goes to a small slaughter house and is dispached quickly and humainly. I know because I have often picked up dog meat from them and seen cow/sheep etc.. being unloaded and handled with care. They are a small concern and have just 2 slaughtermen who have compassion in thier job. I do not and will not bye pre-made food when I have no idea of where it has come from. Prosseced food uses meat from factory farms in such places and Poland.Lithuainia etc.. with much lower standards and I will not encourage this awfull practice.
My meat costs me more but I can then live with my contience. We have at least one meat free day a week whichhelps out with the cost but to me I am happy to do that to morally live with my actions.
However I do buy dog meat which is probably full of imported meat but I also get about 70% from local butchers and that is the best I can do. I can live with that as my dogs would not thank me for making them vegetairians..
To stop 100% animal persecution we would need to stop eating all things like milk (Calves are killed) Cheese Yoghurt/ cream Eggs (Chickens are killed once they stop laying at thier best) Who would keep a cow as a pet ? or a pig ? not enough to keep the species alive and fit and well. A dog/cat/rabbit/mouse can live in the home with you but very few have the room to keep a cow/pig/sheep.
Vegitarians are welcome to do as they feel comfortable with but please don't look down on those of us who choose to eat well produced meat...We need to tighten up the laws on importing meat that does not come from countries who have very high standards...and to tighten up on the production practises in the UK as well.
Aileen

Sadly I can't afford to deliver, Aileen - we don't make much in the way of profit on the farm as it is.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">You seem to have side stepped the point that they would not get a life at all probably if we did not rear them for meat <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" />

If there is no need for them in the food chain,then there is no reason for them to be bred.  If we are wasting 4 billion tonnes of food a year, that means that there's serious over production worldwide and producers need to address that.  We do not need to intensive rear animals, we should be rearing what we know will be eaten.  Some breeds of animal cannot mate naturally because of man's intervention in their conformation, its just all wrong.

>If there is no need for them in the food chain,then there is no reason for them to be bred.

Human beings are designed to be omnivorous just as canines are designed to be carnivorous. If we're evangelical about feeding dogs their 'natural' diet then it's illogical not be just as evangelical about our own species' diet.

Where would we get our dog meat from if not from the portions of the carcases that we choose not to eat?

If you can't afford to deliver charge for delivery :-)

If you have a good product people will be willing to pay :-)

> If there is no need for them in the food chain,then there is no reason for them to be bred.

So you would be happy to see these animals disappear from our landscape?  I would agree we need to eat a lot less meat and stop the intensive farming but if nobody eats them we will have no cattle and sheep.

Which means no pastureland either.

Where have I stated that I want to see EVERYONE stop eating meat?   Where have I stated that I think that our pets should stop eating meat too?

If people want to eat meat that is their decision (One day they will wake up & realise how unhealthy it is ;-)) but we do not need the millions of animals that are bred to be slaughtered as the statistics tell us about the amount of food that is wasted each year.   The countryside has sustained itself for centuries, if man hadn't been so greedy and harvested our natural woodlands to turn into agricultural land then maybe we'd see our natural flora and fauna surviving better than it  does today.

>Zan - my partner and I run a small, organic farm at the edge of Dartmoor

Anyone else,like me, wishing they lived near Ridgielover?!! ;-)

:)

Well you might smile!.... I'm busy planning the Champdogs summer BBQ now!.... Guess where!!? :-P

> Anyone else,like me, wishing they lived near Ridgielover?!! ;-)

I wish I still lived in Hampshire. A friend down there has been building up her own organic smallholding from scratch over the last 2 years, and last week was offering home-made sausages from her own pigs, for £6/kg.

Anyone know if you can send sausages by post??

RFLOL Liv :-P

You should see the revues our meat gets from our customers :)

http://www.thesomersetsausagecompany.co.uk/index.htm

A Jiffy bag I am sure will be ok with a couple of ice cubes shoved in with the snags ;-)

>The countryside has sustained itself for centuries,

Not really, and certainly not in the UK since the Dark Ages. Even a mere 500 years ago famine and starvation was a continual dread.

ridgielover - for those of us who may be able to get to you, can you tell us how we could buy from you please?

I know you aren't supposed to advertise on CD but this is too good a marketing opportunity for you to miss.  I travel to Dartmoor fairly regularly and would love some contact info for you if possible.  Perhaps you could pm me...

Thank you :)

And in the C19th century, women rarely reached menopausal age as they died in their forties such was the life expectancy.   I can't see the relevance about famine and starvation to man's deforestation of the British Isles.

> Could you kill it yourself?
>

As a young adult (18 - 21) I showed, bred and ate Rabbits, which I killled myself.

>I can't see the relevance about famine and starvation to man's deforestation of the British Isles.

The need to improve farming methods to enable enough food to be produced to support a continually growing and, in the 18th century, increasingly urban population (who couldn't grow any of their own food) is a direct cause of deforestation and changing the landscape to the predominately arable one many people assume is natural.

> And in the C19th century, women rarely reached menopausal age as they died in their forties such was the life expectancy.

And now we are living so long that 1 in 2 people will develop some kind of dementia - which is simply old age of the brain. Everything has to die of something, in the end; I think quality of life is probably more important than quantity.

> [url=undefined]http://www.thesomersetsausagecompany.co.uk/index.htm[/url]

That's funny, I've had sausages from these people, they have stalls at my local farmers markets. Very nice too! But not as cheap as my friend's, and I also want to support her venture.

If anyone wants to pm me, feel free :)

There's a very successful company just over the hill from me who raise their own organic animals, they sell a lot through the post, it's delivered in polystyrene boxes, would that be an option for you Ridgilover ?. They went from a very small company to one that now has their own shop and cafe.

I've had no success in finding a reliable company that will deliver my meat.
Could I ask you to pm me the name of the company, please? That would be very helpful :)

I can vouch for RidgieLovers delicious meat, my 5 yr old son is one of her most vocally appreciative customers :)
And she undercharges ;) You can and should charge more :)

Have pm'd you RL

Just tagging on the end here, I don't eat meat I find it horrible to taste, what I object to is the treatment of once pets and racehorses who have earned their owners money. There is footage on the news today of 3 abattoirs treating horses cruelly, its horrid and unjustifiable. I think if you eat meat it is your responsibility to ensure its from a humane method.

How long will it be before we see horse meat burgers in the shops seeing as the consensus is, its not the fact horse meat was in them, its the fact we weren't told!
Lea :-)

See your point Lea but does it matter, if the market is there then they will become available. During the war we could sometimes get whale meat as well as horse and to be honest given a choice I would go for horse any time, on two grounds horse tastes OK and whale does not and then there is the conservation issue.

Oh i am not worried and would try them! We had tesco quater pounder on Wednesday night knowing they had horse meat in them! All be it 0.1% lol
lea :-)