I have never kept 2 dogs together before and now with the prospect of another pup in April I am undecided whether to go with a second bitch or a dog.  I swore after having our last dog that I wouldn't have another male.  I do read some horror stories about bitches fighting as the younger one becomes an adult.  I would hate for this to happen and there is really no way of knowing how Meg will be.  She has had other dogs come into the house - the bitch owned by our neighbours is fine but the collie bitch that came with my son's friend last year hated my dog.  When I played with my dog his dog came out from under the table (Meg's usual safe place) and went for her.  There was a terrible noise and poor Meg was shoved out of the back door by the visiting bitch.  She is terrified of this other dog and hides away from her.  My son's friend just laughed it off saying that Meg fought fair and that it was all noise and no damage.  I was most put out that he let his dog attack mine when Meg was busy trying to keep out of it's way.  It was my fault for playing with her and altering her body language.   Not sure this gives me any indication of how she will be.   How much of a risk is it to have 2 bitches?  I know plenty of people who do and my friend who is having the litter is planning on keeping a bitch too.  I will get second choice - hopefully - first scan only showed one pup so far. 

In your position I would be tempted to go for a male but it also depends on what Meg is like with other dogs in general. Also, I don't know how possible it is to say 'I only want a certain sex' when you look at your friend's litter as none of that sex might appeal so what would you do then? If you were really drawn to a bitch pup, how is Meg with other bitches, putting aside the fact that this one bitch was nasty to her?

I have 3 bitches who live together happily.  We often have a fourth to stay for weekends.  When I had my lab who was mainly an only dog we would occasionally sit for my friends cocker dog.  He was unneutered the first time he came round, she was neutered not long after we got her so quite a while previously.  He was really still a puppy (about 4 months old) but she was very intolerant of him being a bit bolshy and puppyish.  Before she came to us she was a puppy farm breeder so probably not had to deal with boisterous pups that much.  That said when I brought my beagle girl home at about the same age she was totally accepting of her and we had no problems at all.

It is complicated with Meg how she gets on with other dogs.  At agility shows she is fine - I know of 1 dog - a bitch that she will never get on with - a bitch who has problems with everyone. Meg generally seems to recognise that some dogs are a threat to her and she will try to have her say first and if the other dog comes back at her she comes off worse!   This usually happens if she is on the lead or in a tight space - ie a narrow path.   If she is worked up - like at training she is likely to have a go at anything that comes near!  Off lead down the beach with about 40 other dogs the other day - no problem!   My friend who was our trainer in puppy class has had 3 bitches all of whom Meg has treated like family - it so depends on the nature of the other bitch. 

Have you a breed in mind?  Do you definitely want a puppy?

Can only speak from experience, I have had bitches that get on and bitches that don't, have had to re-home a bitch because of  problems with bitch aggression. I have never had a problem with dogs and now will only have dogs.

If your present bitch is spayed and submissive then you may find you can introduce a bitch with no problem but there is no way of knowing till you try as they seem fine for a while and the the balloon blows up.

Even with bitches that get on they are always more edgy with other bitches around and I would always be far more concerned leaving bitches together than I would dogs, don't get me wrong dogs can fall out but they forget quickly, bitches never do.

We have 3 bitches and 3 dogs living in perfect harmony

We have 3 bitches and 3 dogs living in perfect harmony

Yes I have had the same situation - but - I have also had to re-home a bitch before she killed one of the others. There is no black and white but this sort of aggressive behaviour does happen particularly between intact bitches - on the other hand you can have half a dozen intact bitches living together without having to give the situation a second thought.

The OP asked and I said best way would be a dog, but now it is up to them they know it can happen just as it may be fine, they have the facts they can make the decision.

Thanks Jacky - my bitch is spayed but I don't think I can call her submissive - nervous and ready to defend herself yes - she is a collie for those that don't know.  Of course I don't know what this litter will throw up - it may be that I don't get a choice anyway.  Both parents are of good temperament - but neither has interacted with Meg.  It will depend at the end of the day on what I see personality wise.  From what you say - and  also what a friend said -  it seems to be more sensible not to take the risk and go for a dog if possible. 

Yes I have had the same situation - but - I have also had to re-home a bitch before she killed one of the others. There is no black and white but this sort of aggressive behaviour does happen particularly between intact bitches - on the other hand you can have half a dozen intact bitches living together without having to give the situation a second thought.

True -we can never know, but I think chances are higher of things working out if there are only TWO dogs living together, as opposed to a group, and if there is a good age difference between the two.

The worst ever fight I have had, that resulted in such a badly injured dog that it was a full month before I even knew if he would live, was when an entire male dog suddenly (after years of living together) decided to attack a NEUTERED male dog of mine.

I too have had to rehome bitches in the past. I currently have 4 entire Malinois bitches living together in one group (with 2 neutered dogs), and 3 bitches in another -but the two groups cannot mix -well not all of them, some of them can meet, others can not. I have two neutered male dogs living together with the first group without any problems at all. I have one entire and two neutered small dogs living together, where the entire dog occasionally picks on the neutered ones -but no worse than that we can keep on top of it. In the same group I have 5 Papillon bitches (2 spayed, 3 entire) and they have never had as much as a grumble between them and are best of friends the whole lot.

I wish we had crystal balls. :) I think the only time anyone can really play safe is to have dog and bitch, but if anyone had two bitches with say a 3 year age gap at least, then I would have thought the risk of bad fighting would be minimal. (Depending on breed! Know certain breeds like Staffies and Akitas would still be unlikely to get on with their own sex.)

Ceejay,

I don't want to put a downer on your dream of another dog, but in your position, I would be just as worried about a pup picking up Meg's quirky behaviour.    You said in your earlier posts on planning for a new pup, that Meg is ok now, as you know how to 'handle her', yet you also said that she snapped at the trainer as she had stood too close to Meg, you also stated your husband would like a dog he can fuss without being snapped at,      I would be very worried about a pup picking up this behaviour and copying it.   

You have worked so hard with Meg, and I know what she put you through as a youngster  - most would have given up.   The last thing you need is to have another pup growing up with similar bahaviour and have to deal with similar problems later on.

Perhaps what I'm saying is maybe you need to asses how much Meg's behaviour has changed  because of the way you handle her, and how much she has changed in herself?

Please don't think I'm trying to spoil your dream, I'm not, it's just another angle to consider before making your final decision ;-)

Very good points Dill and if it were me I would be sure to do a lot of individual socialisation with the new pup so that they were nicely adjusted to other dogs before you started to add Meg to the walking/mixing equation. I would want to do this anyway but with Meg's background it seems even more important as pups can pick up bad habits/vibes so quickly.

i have had bitches all live together well as i have male (yes all entire) and dogs and bitches. i think it depends on a few things. breeding/breed/enviroment/training ect. at one time i had 5 and perhaps a couple stay on holiday and have never had a problem.

I would actually be considering how she would handle living with a pup, regardless of sex.  Some dogs just do not like them, and a dog already with nervousness like you describe may simply find it too much.  Puppies are a totally different ball game to adults, they are quick, clumsy, still learning body language and so on.  Some of mine would hate to have a puppy here from the start right through to adolescence and they are well socialised!

ceejay do I remember another discussion about your husband and the new dog - Meg has been a bit troublesome for him and he wants an affectionate dog etc?

If I've remembered that right then a dog may well be the best option all round.  I'm a bit biased toward boys but I genuinely think they can often be a bit more laid back and affectionate.  The boys in my gundog breed are certainly like this - charming dopes.  Both of my chaps get terribly bossed by their sisters when they come to visit but neither of them mind a bit and they're happy to give up their position in the queue, or space on the sofa.  The girls are affectionate too but there really is just something extra special about the boys...

My husband mumbled a bit under his breath when we were deciding whether to get our 3rd dog but there is no doubt at all about his devotion to, and affection for them.  Whilst struggling to breathe after being sat on by our youngest dog this evening he remarked again just what a cuddly dog he is, and how nice his ears smelt, and what lovely paws he has - soppy pair :)

Also if you opt for a boy might you get your first choice if your friend is keeping a bitch?

I genuinely think they can often be a bit more laid back and affectionate.  The boys in my gundog breed are certainly like this
TBH, I have never found this. all my girls and boys have been the very same at affection. as a result i have no preference to either sex. must have been lucky over the last thirty odd years.

ceejay, I think you'd be ok with another bitch - probably.  It sounds like the reactions to other dogs occur when she is nervous of them, or extremely hyped up (in which case the frustration gets redirected as aggression, since the 'energy' has to go somewhere).  I can't see those scenarios happening in a calm home environment much, and if she is very familiar with the pup and it has grown up with her, it's unlikely she will be nervous of it after the first weeks have passed. 

There are some breeds I would seriously advise people never to have even 2 of the same sex if they ever plan on leaving them alone unsupervised, but collies aren't one of those breeds. 

Still, you never know - but my bet would be that if you do it slowly and in the right way and supervise their initial interactions with each other, and respect her signs that she wants space - you'll be ok.

> collies aren't one of those breeds. 

Indeed.  Phoebe (my collie) gets on considerably better with the girls than the boys - the boys she just about tolerates!

[url=]You have worked so hard with Meg, and I know what she put you through as a youngster  - most would have given up.   The last thing you need is to have another pup growing up with similar bahaviour and have to deal with similar problems later on.[/url]

I have to agree,  sometimes even when we would love to bring another dog into the home,  the head has to rule the heart, and as sad as it is,    its best to accept that whilst you have a particular dog, you cant bring another one in.

It may work out  for you, but  you need to ask yourself first, what happens if it does not and meg, decides she does not like the new dog, OR the new one picks up some of Megs behaviour ,  are you prepared for the outcome of it goes wrong.  Ofcouse , that's not to say it will, mulitple dog households can be a bit of a "shot in the dark"    it can all go swimmingly or  it can all fall apart  at any time.

I have such a dog, she has issues with some  dogs, she  came into our home as a pup, with an existing older male, I knew he would be fine, at the time I  never  gave it a thought she may not be, she was for  99% of the time, but she had triggers  that would boil and on occasion she made her big brothers life hell,  bless him, he was so laid back he took it all in his stride, 

So now, as long as  we have her  , she is 10 now,  no other dog/pup will come into our home, as much as I AM LONGING FOR IT...she`s happier being an only one, and we are happier not having to watch for a trigger to set her off   .

Do you definitely want a pup cj?? Ive got two dogs, one ive had from a pup who has picked up some bad habits along the way (not from me i hasten to add!)and now at almost 6 years old would most definitely be described as a grumpy bugger. We got our second dog almost 2weeks ago and he is an absolute gem. In the short time he has been here he has already led by example and fred is remembering his good manners again.
Dogs learn a lot from canine companions and in your position I'd be worried that your pup will pick up the bad habits of your dog which is why I'd be considering an older dog to teach yours a thing or two.

Dill I know where you are coming from - and the other posters who have followed my trials and tribulations over the 8 years I have had Meg.  It has been a huge learning curve - from laid back setters to a super sensitive little collie!   My last setter was entirely bomb-proof!   Don't you think this has all gone through my mind - I read your post late last night and slept on it - or rather didn't sleep very well on it.  I have had grandchildren all day so this is my first time back on the computer.  I have watched Meg all day with the children - ended up with 4 of them for the latter part of the day - she is so much more confidant around them now - but she watches and listens for me all the time.  The minute I speak to one of the children who is doing something silly she barks as if she wants to do something too.  She is always ready to 'go' and this is the only way she can express herself.  Calmness is the essence of treating Meg - also being positive.  If I believe she is going to do something - like a wait at the start of a course, or to stand quietly while I wash and dry her the she will do it - as long as I tell her clearly what she is expected to do.  When she knows there are no nasty surprises then she is absolutely fine.  The other perception I have changed is that she is a bad dog.  She is not unlike many dogs that are out there - a little more difficult to handle but that is down to me.  So I have got to believe that I can have a second dog - otherwise this will be my last dog and the end of agility in only a few years when she gets too old.