> Look at the pics of collie pups for sale on the popular website sites .

These are not the sort of breeder I am talking about.

>If the litter had slept outside too I would not have spent 10 solid weeks sleeping on the lounge sofa to keep an eye on them.

Fine, if you want to but I would question if that was necessary and, indeed, the value of it.  You must be so exhausted you would sleep through Cruella De Ville arriving.

> Fine, if you want to but I would question if that was necessary and, indeed, the value of it. You must be so exhausted you would sleep through Cruella De Ville arriving.

Ouch! That's a bit harsh.

Questioning the value of sleeping with a litter for 10 weeks or suggesting she would be exhausted?  I can't see that either is "harsh".

Either... We don't know the circumstances but I'm sure we'd both appreciate a breeder that goes the extra mile.

Questioning the value of sleeping with a litter for 10 weeks or suggesting she would be exhausted?  I can't see that either is "harsh".

I too wonder about the benefit of sleeping with pups for this length of time.  For the record, my puppies are whelped in my bedroom (medium sized working breed) and remain there until around 3 weeks old.  Then they move into the spare bedroom for weaning and once they are eating independently, they come downstairs into the utility room/kitchen and meet the adults.  However, I have an outdoor kennel and run and that is where they spend their days but they are let out with the adults and are free to come in the house during these periods.  They sleep in at nights.  I don't think there is a 'perfect' way for responsible breeders to raise their pups.  We all have our own routines and know our own dogs.  I have never had a litter born in kennels but have bred a male who was shy despite being well socialised and who's parents had super temperements.  My mentor, who had our breed for over 50 years, whelped all her litters outside in her puppy kennel and raised them there too.  As they grew and met the adults they were free to wander into the kitchen  and she spent all her time with them and the older dogs.  I have never met dogs with such fabulous temperements!  She used to have 8 or 9 animals (male and female) up in her field every day and I showed them for her and never had a nervous or worried one to handle.  Each to their own I guess :-)

Having picked parents for our pups which meet the breed standard, are healthy with good temperaments shouldn't we be giving our pups the best of both worlds, inside and out so that heaven forbid we end up with a litter like Marianne's we can hand on heart say we did everything we could possibly have done and there was either some genetic flaw or a hypoxic event during the whelping leading to a degree of brain damage.

> We don't know the circumstances

No, we don't and if there was some special reason then I appologise but I do think if there is any suggestion that other breeders are not "going the extra mile" by going to their own beds at 3 weeks then that would be harsh in my opinion.
If such great importance is attached to puppies experiencing things at an early stage perhaps the absence of a human during the night at some point and therefore introducing a little independence may actually be beneficial :)  But again I suspect some breeds would benefit more than others.

> Each to their own I guess :-)

Exactly :)  Let the results be the judge :)

If I had to explain it to you Stooge then you wouldn't understand, sadly.

>Exactly   Let the results be the judge

Tell that to the poor undersocialised wretches who never got much of a start in life because they spent it at the bottom of the garden, in the dark.

I accept that not every outdoor reared litter has to be quite so deprived, but please please tell me how an outdoor litter is ever going to receive as much stimulation as an indoor reared litter?? 

As for your response to doorbells, vacuum cleaners, dishwashers etc etc, you clearly miss the point and don't seem to understand socialisation.  It is not so much exposure to the precise and exact noises/experiences which puppies are going to have, later, as exposure to *similar* things - to all kinds of different things - which create a robust puppy which is receptive to all new things.  That is, novelty itself stops being novel when the puppy becomes used to frequently experiencing new things.  The puppy becomes socialised to novelty itself and therefore is more accepting of future 'new things', even if s/he has never experienced that precise door bell/noise before.  Puppies born outdoors are going to miss out on a whole range of experiences.  Sure, it's not impossible to carry your vacuum cleaner to your outdoor kennel and turn it on a few times, but I don't think many breeders who rear litters outdoors are doing that...  or much else. 

Furthermore, puppies need to become used to sudden arrivals and departures:  Things being knocked over (by people), people suddenly opening doors unexpectedly, sudden running footsteps on floorboards above them, doors slamming suddenly - the sense of other living beings being around and near them, doing unexpected and unpredictable things.  This is the environment most pet dogs will be expected to live in, once they leave the breeder.  A good breeder will ensure puppies are adjusted to this, beforehand.  A kennel in the garden is going to have the same sound of footsteps approaching, long before a person arrives.  There will not be sounds and sights of others living in the same building and suddenly appearing/disappearing.  There will not be the same 'busy' quality to life' 

All this is fairly obvious - unless, of course, you have reared your litters outdoors and you are intent on defensively insisting it is not...

It is not about where the litter is raised, so much as what the litter has experienced in that location.  However, even given that proviso, it is very very very hard (although not impossible) to expose an outdoor reared litter to many of the things an indoor reared litter would grow up accustomed to. 

Quite so, Rabid. Home reared litters usually just take things much more in their stride because they were gently stressed from a young age and so become less and less worried/surprised by new events/sights and sounds. The idea is to create sound temperaments who can cope more readily with whatever world they find themselves in when they go to their new homes. 

No, I have not personally reared a litter outdoors because that would not suit me or my home but, like other posters, I have purchased a puppy so reared and we appear to have found them to have excellent temperaments probably for the reasons we have suggested but you do not seem keen to be listening to that.

>like other posters, I have purchased a puppy so reared and we appear to have found them to have excellent temperaments

As I said earlier, mine was the clingiest and least willing to explore ...

My litters are reared entirely indoors up to a month old, but after this I have never been able to keep them happy confined to a puppy pen in the space available to me beyond that age, (and I wouldn't be happy or feel it safe or hygienic for a litter to have free run of my kitchen and/or Living room, among all the other adult dogs). 

At this stage they start spending increasing amounts of time outdoors, and I find the use of my double kennel and run (which acts as a bedroom for four of the adults) allows them both dry play space and outdoors safe play space.  By six weeks they are allowed full use of the dogs area of the garden, as I find the adults are happy to interact or ignore them by then, and the pups have learnt who will play and who would rather be left alone.

In fact they are most put out if they cannot go outside and scream blue murder in the morning to be let out.

I have met pups from litters reared entirely indoors, mostly small breeds who are absolutely terrified of the wider world and the outdoors, to the extent of huge problems house training and getting them out.

So it can work negatively both ways.  A combination I would say makes most sense, and an individual breeders hoem and facilities will largely dictate..

I would imagine most breeders these days unless they had the luxury of extensive purpose built kennel buildings complete with heating and space for the breeder to set up camp, would actually whelp their litters outdoors or rear them there until they were at the stage where they need more space for play and exercise and where it is easier to keep them sanitary.  So they should have had ample opportunity to experience the activities in a home.  Mine are very fond of the radio station Gold or Heart, and get to see plenty of Freeview TV.  Daily washing machine, vacuum etc activities. 

Once outdoors as I live on a busy road with a Bus route they will hear traffic and people passing no more than 40 feet away, which helps greatly once they start going for walks.  I used to take them out the front of the house one at a time to see the traffic and people (who can resist saying hello to a puppy), but sadly these days the worry of potentially risking puppy theft makes me more wary, prefer not to advertise the presence of a litter (prefer people assume I simply have a new pup, singular).

These days I am more likely (now I have a driver in the household) to take them for a car ride, or take one out with me in a sling/bag when going for evening walk.

>like other posters, I have purchased a puppy so reared and we appear to have found them to have excellent temperaments probably for the reasons we have suggested but you do not seem keen to be listening to that.

And as I said earlier - like JG's experience too - my pup I purchased which was reared outdoors was far less confident and receptive to household noises than indoor reared pups we've owned.  So just where are all the zillions of 'other posters' who have purchased pups reared entirely outdoors and found them to have excellent temperaments??  Am I missing something? 

Rabid why do you keep talking down to people?

My oldest Spitz was reared outdoors and for a Spitz she's probably the most outgoing, saying that I prefer to have mine indoors and thats where my litters are raised. That's not to say it doesn't work for some people.

>like JG's experience too - my pup I purchased which was reared outdoors was far less confident and receptive to household noises than indoor reared pups we've owned.

Actually that's not what I said; I said she was surprisingly clingy, not that she wasn't receptive to household noises.

Rabid, I was clearly not referring to either you or JG's puppies. 
There will be other factors determining how puppies react so cannot say why socialisation was not so successful there. I haven't said all dogs outdoor reared will have good temperament. Clearly you will have to pick your breeder as you would an indoor breeder.
You say I don't understand socialisation but at least I do realise the aim is not to replicate all the sights, smells, sounds and experiences of their future home as no two homes could ever be alike anyway.  What you need to give them is the confidence to cope generally with differing experience but it really doesn't matter what they are as no one can predict what might come into their future lives.

>Rabid why do you keep talking down to people?

I'm not talking down to anyone - I disagree with some of the views being put forward.

Of course it's *possible* to rear a litter outdoors which is well-adjusted, but the odds are not stacked in your favour AND most litters raised outdoors are not as well adjusted as most litters raised indoors.  There is research to PROVE this is the case!!  [Will attempt to find it when I've had my dinner...]

> AND most litters raised outdoors are not as well adjusted as most litters raised indoors. 

I wouldn't argue the statistics of the ratios with you as they will clearly be very much slanted by the propensity for puppy farmers to use outdoors sheds/kennels whatever, but happy to see you accept that it is perfected possible for a decent breeder to do all that is necessary to rear a well adjusted litter outdoors :)

No, not 'perfectly possible' - extremely difficult, but not impossible.

So just where are all the zillions of 'other posters' who have purchased pups reared entirely outdoors and found them to have excellent temperaments?? 

Hands up! Will at least one do....... :-D

Over the past 40+ years having purchased many a working pup and quite a few show dogs too with my mum and brothers, yes, many did come from outdoor kennels and probably many of the pups were not raised to the standard I rear mine, well they couldn't be :-) .....it used to be pretty normal to get your pups from Collies, to Labs, to Springers, Cockers, GSD's in this way, they all turned out to be cracking dogs with fab temperaments, (I should know I trained most of them) but the breeders were known and sourced.

I am 100% an indoor breeder who goes the extra mile to fully socialise and absolutely agree with all the benefits of home rearing, I would never wish to do anything else, however, I still can't get away from the fact that many great and sound dogs did come to our family over the years in this way, so I'm a bit caught between the devil and the deep blue sea on this issue. :-)

However, many outdoor breeders today will be puppy farmers so careful vetting has to be top of the list, a good breeder with good lines in my opinion always comes top of my list where they rear their pups is secondary for me, but maybe I am a little complacent as many people would not notice the warning signs of poorly reared pups whereas I would about turn.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of home reared pups raised by dubious people too, who do not socialise them or with them at all or even clean up after them and their homes are like a puppy farm kennel .......... seen a few of them over the years too. :-(

> So just where are all the zillions of 'other posters' who have purchased pups reared entirely outdoors and found them to have excellent temperaments?

Almost every borzoi I had was reared outdoors and they all had wonderful temperaments, bombproof with traffic, fireworks, strange noises, people, dogs etc. The last zoi I owned was inside for the first 4 weeks of life and had an awful temperament (my Mr Beastly) but I don't think that's connected. There are some breeds who are not noise phobic or reactive and cope very well being outside pups :)

'What you need to give them is the confidence to cope generally with differing experience'

And how is it possible for them to get this confidence when all they generally ever experience is the same 4 walls of the kennel/barn they were born in? As I said, my litter had played and romped on multiple surface types, heard umpteen different noises each and every day, saw lots of new things, travelled in the van etc. And this was 'normal' to them. I don't know any outside reared litters who get anywhere near this exposure. After all, they are usually left outside for the breeder's convenience so they are not going to put themselves out to provide all this for the pups as this would be far too much effort.

> And how is it possible for them to get this confidence when all they generally ever experience is the same 4 walls of the kennel/barn they were born in?

You seem to be fixated on the idea that we are talking about puppy farmers.  We are not.

>After all, they are usually left outside for the breeder's convenience

It's pretty convenient to keep them inside isn't it?

>It's pretty convenient to keep them inside isn't it?

Not really; the noise, the mess, the smells of a litter of puppies are pretty 'inconvenient' in the home.

Depends what breed I guess, mine aren't very smelly at all :) now my cats they absolutely stink :)

Going into the puppy room first thing in the morning, when they all wake joyfully and and about 40 small paws pad through the overnight pee and poo and smear it all down your dressing gown .... that smells! :-D

I can imagine :) my moms RR pup stunk like 10 of mine and that was just him on his own :) it put me a little bit off big dogs. Think it helps also that average for my breed is 3.

I don't image they would be any less messy in an outbuilding and you would not have to go outside in your dressing gown :)

Exactly; it's much more 'convenient' to have a clean house and be able to make the early tea without being covered in poo. :-) But whether it's better for the puppies or not is a different matter.

That is why a compromise is a good idea, so that pups get maximum attention, but that the humans can actually carry on living in their homes without risking tripping over pups and, being able to keep things more hygienic.  Pups going out to play while the indoor quarters are cleaned, the house aired etc is pretty vital in my opinion.

Unless you have a large house where a whole room, (with furniture removed) can be set aside for pups, that can be easily cleaned and ventilated, for anything but a small breed you simply won't have enough space entirely indoors for a growing litter to romp and play and get fresh air.  Oh dear pups may not be in the thick of things there either, even though it's indoors.  It's why I no longer whelp pups in the bedroom, but in the living room, (and sleep on my sofa instead of the comfy bed in the bedroom) as the house is a little less busy than when the kids were little.

Also your other dogs need to be considered, and things balanced so they do not suffer from the unwanted attention of very young pups, without a break.  Mine give me filthy looks when their beds are lifted and a puppy pen put in their place in the kitchen at 2 - 3 weeks

I do actually agree with Barbara and think that compromise is best - there are experiences they will only gain outdoors as well.  However I do think they should continue to spend time both in and outdoors, until they leave.  Not have only the first 3 weeks inside and then get shipped off outside just as they become more interested in the external world.  I do object to puppies being raised (or dogs kept, for that matter) entirely outdoors.

Mine have always spent part of every day outdoors from about 4 or 5 weeks old, but the majority of their daytime is indoors (unless it's high summer and the weather is perfect), and they always sleep indoors.

Ah, but yours are a short coated breed.  Our primitive Spitz prefer to dash in and out and will even want to stay out when it's snowing, at just 4 or 5 weeks old I have had them playing out in snow, when I suspect yours would be in within minutes.

I don't even think it's safe to leave litters of pups permanently outdoors, but mine certainly prefer to spend a fairly large part of their waking day outdoors, this years may litter were often soggy people, and a large supply of bedding and towels got used and washed.

I also like to get pups used to a quiet period, of minimal interacting with us.  Most households will have a time (usually in the late morning, middle of the day) when even people who do not work outside the home will have errands to run, housework, school runs etc.  So I concentrate my main interactions outside of routine care to the Morning, then again after their early evening meal (a time when the family are all home after work and school), a more quiet personal time in the evenings, around their last meal before bed.

Unless you have a large house where a whole room, (with furniture removed) can be set aside for pups, that can be easily cleaned and ventilated, for anything but a small breed you simply won't have enough space entirely indoors for a growing litter to romp and play and get fresh air.

My last Mali litter (9 pups) was born in the living room in winter (one when there was lots of snow) and had the run of the living room and the hall, in among the toydogs, the cats and us humans. When I opened the door to let the toydogs go out for a wee, the pups followed too from about 4 weeks of age. Accidents indoors were mopped up as obviously all my floors are wipe clean anyway. We learnt to step carefully as there would be pups everywhere, but it was certainly no problem. Over Christmas that year we still had 5 pups with us and they were in the middle of it when we had Christmas dinner and opened the presents, loving it all. Plus as my mother always stays with us at Christmas, she had to use our bedroom so hubby and I slept in the living room, with pups all over our beds. We only have one bedroom (as the other two have been converted into a granny flat which is separate from us and for my mother in law's use only) but we still managed just fine. The pups were never confined once they learnt how to climb out of the whelping box. Where there's a will there's a way. :) So these pups certainly didn't miss out on anything, indoors OR outdoors. But I swear I will never have another winter litter of large pups as the one thing I'd have changed would have been to be able to leave them outside to play for say an hour at a time, without risking them freezing. And it's so nice to sit on the grass in summer and watch a litter of pups play all around you.

With my eyesight I'd never get away with it, they might not survive! 

I couldn't cope with trying to watch underfoot, and clean up after a whole litter loose at once in the house.  practising the puppy foot slide to avoid treading on them is hard enough part time.  The adults are hard enough, especially when cooking.

Also did none of your adults object to the pups full time?  At the time when mine use the dog run outside, before 6 weeks I don't find most of the adults want to have much to do with them by choice.  Mum and some of the younger ones will hop over the board keeping them in, but some of the veterans pretend they don't exist.

I think house layout can have a major effect, one reason I can't/won't keep both sexes.  My hall leads into the living-room which leads into the kitchen which leads into the garden.  No way of splitting dogs up without them ever having to have contact.  Bitch who has pups has to go out past the rest of the crew to use garden, and that can cause a little swearing.

The dogs normally have access to livingroom when we are home, but confined to kitchen at other times.

I agree with the spitz prefering outside. One of mine was lay in the snow when I let them out this morning rolling round in it :)

I have a friend who bred a litter of my breed, with the pups having free access between a large through lvingroom/diningroom and outside via patio doors. 

Once out of the whelping pen (4 foot square), if doors out were closed they screamed the place down.

Even when it rained they piled in a corner outside under the lip of the backstep, or in the planters where they had dug holes. 

This was February and on the worst days they resorted at times to having to shut the door and leave them out.  At night they were put to bed inside and were screaming to be out by 5am.

Strange how the same pups once older can look at rain as if it would make them disolve (though bring on the snow)and can't be prised out of their beds in the morning.

Funnily enough me and my husband was saying this morning how the princess yuki wh won't go out in rain is the first out in the snow.

Sounds fantastic Goldmali, you're just the sort of person I wish were breeding collies!

Don't you think though that some breeds just seem to need far more soailisation to be 'normal' dogs, and there are others who do very well on a much less intensive, more relaxed socialisation program.

Back to nature (drives and traits selected for can work for or against) versus nurture.

I've only had one of the former (a herding flock guarding breed), with wary in its standard, and 10 of the latter (hunting Spitz), with Bold in it's standard.

Tagging onto the end as can't view the first page :-( so not entirely sure what the original post was about but ...

Two out of my 5 were outdoor reared :-D I would defy anyone who meets my dogs without knowing their background to be able to point those two out! As said, can't see the original post, but reared outside doesn't have to mean brought up in isolation, within the same 4 walls, with no socialisation or experiences to set them up for living in a normal household (from what others have said, we're not talking puppy farming here) ... it is perfectly possible to pick puppies up and take them into a home environment to help with that!

Whether reared inside or outside, it's what is done with the pups that matter. I have come across plenty of folk who have raised pups indoors (again, not talking puppy farmers/backyard breeders here) ... some of those pups have been kept within the confines of 4 walls, albeit a living room, and very little done with them.

Interestingly, the only 2 of my dogs who follow me around when I'm hoovering are the outdoor reared ones, the others go for cover - and they were all 'socialised' to a vacuum cleaner when very young by their breeder :-D

Agree, Brainless, some breeds seem to be far more susceptible to the 'fear period' and more easily upset/influenced for the worse by early experiences (and lack of). As a trainer I see hundreds of dogs each year and ime there are certain breeds who are more likely to have solid temperaments and very definitely the more spooky breeds.

Alot of sweeping statements being made by some on here on this subject. Not all kennels consist of a shed at the bottom of the garden, don't tar all with the same brush. There are a great deal of bad kennels as mentioned with the shed, dogs never seeing the light of day etc etc but there are also many kennels who care for there dogs & puppies, good kennels, good breeders with a great deal of experience. It should be very important for all pups to hae the experience of all surroundings. I just feel its so wrong to have an unfair opinion on all who have or use kennels. We have kennels, our girls are in the house for 2weeks prior to whelping in the nursery attached to the front room. The pups are reared & weaned & depending on weather etc either stay in with adventuring on the patio several times a day or can go into a puppy kennel with heat & a huge run just 2 feet away from the nursery. Never had a report on a nervous puppy nor are any of our dogs poor quivering wrecks who dont see a soul - 7days a week for at least 8hours a day we are outside with those dogs, exercising, cleaning, grooming & not forgetting the maintainence that this requires. It is not easy to have dogs in kennels to look after them in the right way & to make them feel included but all our dogs are well rounded individuals who LOVE to be outside, if they come in for whatever reason they hate having the door shut - which is a nitemare in the winter, gets abit chilly for us. Then we have the dogs who if you put a heat lamp on for them they will lay outside in the rain rather than under it lol! Try to be fair people, not all of us peeps with kennels are the enemy or terrible people - some of us actually care for our dogs & love them like family :)

At least two of my three dogs were raised outdoors and they both have fabulous temperaments (the oldest one is a rescue who I got at 2 years old so I don't know but out of the three of them she is the only one who is terrified of the hoover and always has been). Rodaidh, my 6 year old dog lived in a gundog kennel until I bought him at 5.5 months old; I don't think he'd ever been in a house until I got him but he adapted immediately with no problems and he is about the most well adjusted and well balanced dog you will meet. I am one of two Breeding Scheme Supervisors at Hearing Dogs for Deaf People and Ro is our most successful stud dog; the assessments he went through before he was used are extremely rigorous, an independent assessor tested his social confidence, environmental confidence, biddability, trainability, ease of handling and touch, sound and sight sensitivity and he flew through all of it. He has now sired 34 puppies for HDfDP and they have a 97% pass rate against the average of around 70%. He is also a very driven but rock steady working dog who is out beating and picking up on a big driven shoot twice a week all season and roughshooting with my OH almost every week all year. Even with my bias towards him he is just a superb dog that I can take anywhere and trust in any situation.

Caoimhe, my youngest bitch, lived outdoors until I bought her at just over 5 months old. She was slow to house train but other than that she adapted to being in the house straight away and she has always had a confident, inquisitive, well balanced and affectionate personality. She lives indoors when with me and in kennels when with her field trial handler and she adapts to both with no problems. She is fazed by nothing, she made up to FTCh last November at just under 4 years old and I can safely say that she has never lacked in confidence in any way shape or form as well as being the sweetest natured dog I have ever had.

I would have absolutely no hesitation in buying a kennel raised puppy from the right breeder, what I'm looking for - working and field trial dogs from specific lines - are more often than not going to come from breeders who keep their dogs in kennels. Both Rodaidh's breeder and Caoimhe's handler are well respected full-time professional gundog trainers who are breeding top quality working and trialling dogs; they both have purpose-built kennel blocks right next to their houses and they both also have full-time staff to help take care of the dogs. There is a big difference in this and someone who has a shed and run at the bottom of the garden where the dogs are left while they're out at work all day.

"some of us actually care for our dogs & love them like family"

..... well I don't lock my family out in kennels so can't see the comparison somehow?

Anthropomorphising Marissa..... Not something a dog from the sled dog breeds would thank you for!
Lapema has a kennel of dogs which are very highly regarded and their temperaments give no one who has the pleasure of meeting them any indication of an 'unloved' or cared for dog.
    

> well I don't lock my family out in kennels so can't see the comparison somehow?

Yet many feel it's fine to shut their dogs in cages within their homes (primarily to protect the humans belongings) when they are absent, not just at night even, a roomy kennel might be far preferable if available.

These days most children even as babies have their own bedrooms, no longer sleeping in their parents rooms until they are 3 years or so old as was common when I was a child. 

Larger families often had children sharing beds let alone bedrooms, where these days parents would find that unacceptable.

Actually, these days co-sleeping is making a big come-back and is being seen as offering reassurance and protection to young children, especially when they wake in the night.