Being a little bored today I decided to read critiques where I noticed in poms at LKA in open dog the dog she gave rdcc to sh had previously given a cc too. I thought this was against the rules? Or is it just a case of showing etiquette? 

No, as far as I know not against the rules, after all you judge the dog on the day and another day another dog as the saying goes.

No it's just showing etiquette that some people prefer to win all their CCs under different judges.

I think we'd get lynched if I did that in my breed.

No, it isnt against the rules..maybe your thinking of a dog has to win CC's under 3 different judges to become a champion.
Personally if I had won a CC under a judge, I wouldnt enter under them with the same dog again, unless it was Crufts or a Veteran. I gave a bitch the RCC at a show & when I judged the next time she got the CC.

Well I thought at the very least it was a unwritten rule that most stuck too except crufts, I've never seen anyone show under someone they've previously had a cc off and I know I certainly wouldn't, just surprised really.

I won't show under a judge that has given the dog I have entered a CC, UNLESS it is either a breed championship show or Crufts. But I could if I wanted to.

I think that's a decent rule of thumb, I only have one dog to show ATM and he's had 4 CCS of the judges we have this year but I still wouldn't show him. First time I've ever noticed anyone else do too.

I would certainly have a go under a judge who has given me a RCC but not a CC.

In our breed it's frowned upon, unless it's Crufts of course.
No rule, just etiquette and I completley agree :)

I would have thought if a judge gave you a cc or rcc that you would defanatly show under them again as you know they like your dog ? 

If you've got a CC under one judge, what would be the point of showing the same dog under them? It wouldn't count. If you've got an RCC however, I'd travel really far to show under them again, hoping the dog that beat me last time wasn't entered or was out of coat or something!!

Some are out to get as many CC's as possible and are not worried if they come from the same judges but to reach champ status they have to be 3 CC's from 3 different judges so why waste money/time and effort before becoming a champ going back to the same judges as it isn't going to achieve anything and also blocks the chances for fellow exhibitors.

I suppose when folk mention how many CC's their dog has they don't mention the names of the judges, they could have 20+ but only 3 judges involved.

oh i see. i dont have any CCs so good to know this stuff just in case lol

Sorry Vinya I meant if your dog had won a CC you wouldnt take that same dog under them but certainly would take your other dogs :)

There are no rules to say that you can't show a particular dog under a judge that has given that dog a CC but there would be little point in doing so as it will only confirm the judges opinion when first giving the dog a CC or you will be disappointed because the judge will prefer another dog this time round. If you show under a judge for that judges opinion then once you have top honours you don't really need the same opinion twice but there are exceptions such as Crufts, Breed Club Show or if the dog concerned won the CC as a puppy then you may wish to know what the judge thinks now it is adult.

There is no reason why you should not show another dog under a judge that has awarded a different dog you own or show a CC.

I saw a critique where the judge gave a second CC to a dog but complained bitterly that the owner had put them in that position.
The writer said the CC was awarded because in their opinion it was the best there...but wished the owner hadn't done it.

Fair enough!

I understand why it would be deemed necessary to show under 3 different judges at the start of a dogs show career to get the CH title.  Why after that would it be an issue?
The only other reasoning I can figure is that a dog's success in the show ring is determined by how many CC's are awarded and the number of judges these are awarded under...Is that the case? ie. 12 CC's under 12 judges is more of an 'achievement' than 12 CC's under 6 judges?

Why after that would it be an issue?

It is not an issue but why would you want to keep asking the same question of the same person - how do you like my dog - as I said before, very much but it would be nice to tell someone else the same thing.

To keep showing the same judge a quality animal means that other quality animals may miss out because they are just that tiny bit inferior to the much shown dog although they could be said to be of Champion quality, it is and is considered a selfish attitude which does the breed no favours at all.

Just adding on the end here and playing devil's advocate a bit.
What would people do if the judge for your breed had already given your dog a CC so you didn't really want to break etiquette by showing under that judge, but you knew that the group or BIS judge also really liked your dog and if it got as far as group or BIS you would have a good chance? Would you enter?

What would people do if the judge for your breed had already given your dog a CC so you didn't really want to break etiquette by showing under that judge, but you knew that the group or BIS judge also really liked your dog and if it got as far as group or BIS you would have a good chance? Would you enter?

Very circumstantial and dependant on so many things who can say, is taking the chance worth the possible upset of your friends, would your dog get BOB anyway, even it the group judge likes your dog they may like a dozen or more even better.

I'm understanding more of the situation and how it seems to differ from other show circles but I still dont understand this part...

A dog is awarded a CC and deemed the best dog on that day

How would it be known that they would still favour that dog as their best on another day with a different entry if you didn't enter under them again? 

Would it be purely be left to chance that these dogs then met again at say Champ show level and were then judged against each other?

Must admit I'm still trying to get my head around showing dogs and classes etc. and maybe I'm drawing parallels to the way other animals are shown and judged where I shouldn't, so please dont think I'm being argumentative, I'm just trying to learn and understand!

Not all rules for every hobby/sport are written down...some come under the heading of etiquette and good sportsmanship.

How would it be known that they would still favour that dog as their best on another day with a different entry if you didn't enter under them again? 

Most breeds have much the same entry show after show, especially if you tend to show just north or just south.

On the other hand you should not get the same judge at a championship show more than once every 18 months and that judge will choose the best dog and the best bitch on that day in their opinion, but there will be different dogs and bitches present so the chance of meeting a dog or bitch the judge prefers will be fairly high.

We seem to get them every 12 months, some of the elite judges were on our b list and judged then 12 months later were giving CCS and they were poor! We also have someone giving CCS next year and they're on our c list!

I may be out of date I though the KC stated it had to be 18 months - if you are talking about those who attend a seminar and get fast tracked by the KC in most cases I think that is adding to the problems of people become disillusioned by the system and some are just collecting breeds and have no real interest in the breed at all.

dose this only aply to CCs? If a judge gives me a first ,I like to show under that judge again as i know they like my dog and i may get another 1st. is that ok?  And what about a BOB , is it ok to show under a judge that gave you a BOB last time? sorry for the questions. lol

Following a judge around is not a good idea really, although in your breed your entry will always be appreciated because with out people entering under the same judge may mean the loss of classes. What would be nice is if the committee putting on classes were more careful not to use a judge that has judged that particular breed in the last 12 months. Having said that it is getting very difficult for open shows to get judges as they are reluctant to travel far unless they are given more than one breed so really as long as you don't over do the repeat entries you are not going to upset anyone.

Nail on head Jackie, some of the big name all rounders I wouldn't give time of day too now.

> Personally if I had won a CC under a judge, I wouldn't enter under them with the same dog again, unless it was Crufts or a Veteran

Interestingly I am in exactly that position, with Lexi, was going to enter her in Veteran at Crufts, and then realised the judge had given her her first CC in May 2005, when she was 20 months.

If I had not already intended to take the two youngsters, then I probably would have entered her, as it is so many years between, and a Veteran of 9 1/2 is rather different to an up and coming young bitch.

Just as a matter of interest how do these dogs who have large numbers of CCs get so many if they don't enter under the same judge twice? and why is it ok to keep showing a dog with huge numbers of CCs  stopping other dogs having their chance but it it is not OK to do it under the same judge?

I must say it seems quite odd to me to have this idea. After all you don't get football teams saying Oh we have won enough matches now we better stop and let someone else have a chance. and you don't see Ferrari pulling out of races to let another team get more points towards the formula 1 championship.

Newyork - think it would be down to why you show.

Most enter under a judge to get their opinion of the dog on that day so if you have already had that judge tell you your dog in their opinion is of champion quality why would you be interested in being told that again.

Then you have the trophy chasers.

Should have said that if you get a reserve CC they you would want to enter to see if you could go one better but that does not apply if you have the CC.

Just as a matter of interest how do these dogs who have large numbers of CCs get so many if they don't enter under the same judge twice? and why is it ok to keep showing a dog with huge numbers of CCs  stopping other dogs having their chance but it it is not OK to do it under the same judge?

I guess those that have several dozen CCs will have shown under the same judge more than once, but I just checked and the breed record holder in my main breed, who has 20 CCs, has received his under 20 different judges.

The amassing of lots and lots of CCs is something people will never agree on. Some think it should not be done, others think it is okay. I don't think it can really be compared to a dog that wins the occasional CC. When you have a dog that wins the CC at pretty much every single show it is entered to, then you are talking beating  or creating breed records, and of course going much further than just the CC -first BOB and then group and then BIS. And going for the top winning dog of your breed of the year or even your breed group. Not many dogs are good enough to have a good chance at going all the way. Most will be liked by SOME judges but not all, not many will be liked by the MAJORITY of judges. I cannot say hand on heart that if I had a dog that was good enough, enjoyed showing and was young and fit that I would stop showing it when it was winning everything under the sun. Certainly in my main breed a few people moan about the breed record holder and think he should not be shown again, but he is young and deserving of his wins, would I stop showing him if he was mine? No I wouldn't, because I show to win and to have a chance to forever go down in the history books -I'd grab that chance. It's at that level you will make enemies as well as friends, and that's just human nature I guess. :) But I did not enter my Champion under judges that had already given her a CC. She however was never going to win at EVERY show.

Our top CC holder has 60+ so must have been under some judges more than once, she has never been bred from and for a long while stopped any other bitches progressing and folk stopped putting their dogs in a class she was likely to be in as it was a waste of time and effort. She did get stolen/disappeared whilst running off lead,was gone for 4 months and then turned up again and back in the ring to pick up more CC's.

folk stopped putting their dogs in a class she was likely to be in as it was a waste of time and effort.

They should have put their efforts into breeding something better. :)

Obviously they didn't like competing against top quality.

Sometimes with some judges you are not just competing with a better quality dog but with that dogs reputation, see what happens to if a Crufts group winner continues to be shown the year following - it is a brave and totally unbiased judge that will not give a very hard look at this exhibit and it does make it hard because in your determination to ignore what you know about the animal you may well become over critical or if you are not too keen start to question your own ability.

the record holder is not always the best dog there in my breed the record holder was winning ccs and bobs and good group places when it was being draged around the ring the owner was jogging to make it look as though it was moving but full length of a six foot leader beside her, it was not showing not using its ears at all (pricked ear breed) just did not want to do it and it must have won 6 or 7 tickets plus bob that i saw and did not deserve it other people were not showing against her as it was a waste on money she had won that much up to champ bis the judges were afraid to knock her and off some judges she took 3 and 4 ccs

As I said it is not always the best dog but the one with the reputation.

To keep showing the same judge a quality animal means that other quality animals may miss out because they are just that tiny bit inferior to the much shown dog although they could be said to be of Champion quality, it is and is considered a selfish attitude which does the breed no favours at all.

Very interesting to read all these comments as we have completely the reverse situation in Obedience. Ticket handlers don't think twice about entering under judges who have given their dog a CC before and the most successful dog/bitch each year will usually hog a large majority of the CCs (there are something like 40 on offer per season) but it's just something that's accepted and everyone else either doesn't enter or takes their chances lol. We do have our share of trophy chasers - people who will be competing in Ireland one day and then down on the South coast of England the next day. Their dogs must spend an awful lot of their time in vans. 

I know to even get anywhere near qualifying for ticket level in obedience is beyond the average competitor in obedience.

In breed, in theory is you have the best dog you can win, it isn't based entirely on the dogs performance and handler ability (though they do help).

The Giant Schnauzer, top dog all breeds, was his owners first show dog, and by the time he was winning at that level people were moaning about the face winning ;).  

I have no idea what the potentil entry is at ticket level in obedience.

There are very few breeds now withy 40Cc's a year.  My own breed has 19 sets, but that includes Belfast where the entry is in single figures.

If it were so frowned upon in that once a dog has made up to a ch you don't show it anymore then why do they have breed records for CC's? Also running along this is top stud, top brood bitch and so on. These accolades keep some breeders/handlers in the rings for this very reason, now if after they first three CC's made no difference to these awards and breed records for CC's were kept then you might find a slightly different twist on things.
Many will strive for bob, then it's a group place, then it's 1st in group and then BIS...there is always something to aim for in dog showing it seems, though getting BIS at all breeds over and over doesn't stop some either..
All depends on your outlook on the showring, for many of us it's a hobby and a day out, for others their livelihood depends on winning and winning big!!

> Our top CC holder has 60+ so must have been under some judges more than once

That isn't always the case, our current breed record holder has never been under the same judge twice and he has 71cc and 18rcc and I'm pretty sure our breed record holders before him hadn't been under the same judge twice.

I think Glory Lass had a couple of duplicates.

The problem with keeping a Champion in the ring is it curtails your other youngsters coming up. Which one do you handle when two or more win their class?
I had to retire a winning bitch just so as to make up her younger kennel mate ..I was always having to find the youngster a handler for the challenge, unsettling her and 'subtly' showing the judge which of my girls I thought was the best.

Which one do you handle when two or more win their class?

Isn't that just the eternal problem! At least in my breed, handing one dog over has the added advantage it will look for its owner so therefore use its ears. A good friend of mine had two young bitches, just a few months in between in age. The one I bred is on one CC and 7 RCCs, the other one got made up at LKA. (Think she will have to keep the Champion at home a bit now because of that!) When the now Champion bitch got her second CC, there was the usual problem of who should handle which one. She had two class winning bitches and I had one. She decided to handle the bitch I bred herself, and my 17 year old daughter took the other one. My daughter was handed the ticket, and the owner was handed the reserve.

Nicely done!

I probably am a crummy/barely competent handler, as when I have been lucky enough to be in that postion, it is often the person handling the other exhibit that has won the CC or RCC.

My laid back Lexi is a case in point, of her 6CC's the first and most recent won at Manchester last year were won, with another handler, as I had also another exhibit in the challenge.

My Jozi's Mum Kizi won her RCC with another handler as I was finding it difficult to her settled in Open bitch when I had the other in Limit, and was having to stay for critiques in the earlier class, while open was assembling.

I've been asked a few times to handle dogs suddenly, in mine and other breeds, when the owner unexpectedly won 2 classes. Twice the one I was holding won BOB - I'm sure it wasn't my handling though! :-D