i know you do not have to do the health tests in the breed i have
but if you have done more than is expected in health tests
and they have come back clear and the breeder refused to lift
the endorsments would you contact the kennel club and show
them all that you had done to prove that the dog/bitch is fit etc, and
hope they would agree with you and lift them.

the breeder is being difficult as  has seen the dog/bitch and realised
should not of sold him/her on he/she has gone from an ugly duckling
to a swan and in the correct hands has become a fantastic show dog
and has asked to buy him/her back on many occasions.

do you think there would be a case for lifting or would not have a hope in hell

Did the breeder say when they informed you of the endorsements under what circumstances they would lift them, was this put in writing and signed by you both? Many breeders who have sold pups as pets will not lift them at all.

If the breeder went about informing you about the endorsements in the right way the KC won't lift them or it would be pointless having them there for breeders to place if they could be lifted willy nilly by the KC.

I wouldn't think that the Kennel Club should do anything but who knows these days.
Having let a puppy go to an experienced exhibitor who promised to show and the dog has bearly left the house.  And let another go to an infrequent breeder who actually didn't have a clue about whelping, which ended with me driving 40 miles in the early hours of the morning to take care of the whelping bitch.

I would never lift any endorsements now, both to protect my line (I know what's behind my line and so what would be suitable stud dogs) and my bitches (from owners who don't have enough knowledge to support her through pregnancy, whelping and rearing a litter).  I don't know about your situation but if a novice breeder wanted to have a litter, I wouldn't want them to learn on one of my bitches....... :(

> I don't know about your situation but if a novice breeder wanted to have a litter, I wouldn't want them to learn on one of my bitches.......

Would you help them find a breeder that would be willing to mentor them then?

I agree with others that it depends on what conditions the pup was sold under and if they were 'verbal' or 'written'.  Did the buyer sign a contract that there was to be no lifting of restrictions or not.... did the breeder give any terms under which restrictions may be lifted or not?

If the dog has turned out so well and there were terms under which the restrictions may be lifted then its surprising that the breeder wont as it would be of benefit to the breeder for the dog to be shown under their affix and perhaps with guidance produce some nice pups.

However if the pup was sold as a pet to people whom had no thoughts of breeding or showing/working the pup why do they want to breed now?  Why did they accept a pup with endorsements in the first place? 

Many pups are sold with endorsements which are designed NOT to be lifted and the buyer knows this when they buy the pup....

I agree.

There cant be many concerned breeders who wouldnt be hugely disappointed if the KC did lift the endorsments.

We are reading your version of the story but know nothing of the whole picture from the breeders side.

I have everything Ive ever bred out in the world with endorsments and would be furious if the KC took it upon themselves to remove them on the basis of one owners story.

> a novice breeder wanted to have a litter, I wouldn't want them to learn on one of my bitches.......

I totally agree.  I once had a phone call from a lady who had bought a bitch from someone who had used one of my boys on her bitch.  So, naturally I didn't know what vetting had been done etc when the bitch puppy had been sold.  And didn't know this lady who phoned me.

I always put endorsements on all of my litters, including any pup that I keep for myself.  It seems no endorsements were in place on this bitch, and this was the woman's first litter.

She had just sold two six week old bitch puppies  and this is a breed that needs to be kept for 12 weeks before leaving home.  She was phoning me to ask if it was ok to pass my details on to the buyer, so I could advise them on breeding.  :-(

I was livid.  And asked how they could tell at 6 weeks if a bitch was suitable for breeding.  I told her in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to be involved with anyone who was so irresponsible.  There are far too many bitches that suffer in the hands of people that shouldn't even be allowed to keep dogs.

I totally understand why WestCoast wouldn't want her bitches used by idiots.

Would you help them find a breeder that would be willing to mentor them then?

To me there are years' worth of learning to be done before anyone should even think about breeding, so if someone with a 2 year old bitch asked for help to mate her then probably the answer would be no.

It seems to me that anyone with a bitch thinks it's their right to produce puppies these days without doing the learning and serving the 'apprenticeship' with the novice shadowing an experienced breeder that used to be done 30 years ago. :(  Now the novice expects an established breeder to pass on their knowledge and experience that has taken them years to accumulate to them, just because they want to have a litter. :(  Why should they?  The do-gooders will say to protect the bitch!  Sorry, not for me. :(

Have a read of this CD blog I wrote last year: http://www.champdogs.co.uk/blog/lifting-the-breeding-endorsement

> I totally understand why WestCoast wouldn't want her bitches used by idiots.

I would not sell a puppy to an idiot :)
I'm not saying we should let every puppy buyer breed, very, very far from it but I would not decide just on the basis that they were novices in that regard, after all were we not all at one time.  For the right person I would be delighted to pass on any knowledge or experience I might have accumulated.

Setting all emotions apart I think the KC takes the view that it has to be explained to the purchaser at the time the pup is picked up and put in writing and signed as an agreement between both parties, they will not intervene.  If this has not happened and the owner can show that they have proved the animal and it has had the required health tests and had satisfactory results then unless there is a problem in the background of the animal concerned the endorsement will be lifted and pups will be registered. This will always take time as the KC will contact the breeder for their view point before acting.

I would not sell a puppy to an idiot :-)
I'm not saying we should let every puppy buyer breed, very, very far from it but I would not decide just on the basis that they were novices in that regard, after all were we not all at one time.  For the right person I would be delighted to pass on any knowledge or experience I might have accumulated.

A family may well fulfil my criteria to be good pet owners, if that's what they've told me that they've looking for.  That doesn't make them suitable to breed a litter.

If they later showed interest, then I'd certainly share my knowledge to help them get involved with the breed, learn more about the breed standard and get into showing to prove their bitch's worth to the breed.  I'd also encourage them to watch a few matings, watch a few whelpings as my mentor did for me 30 years ago. But unless someone is a puppy farmer, it will take a few years to get anything like a good foundation on which to start breeding.

I also went along to buy a family pet.  When I went back to the breeder and said that I was so infatuated with the breed temperament that I would like to consider a litter she said that she would help IF I went and saw a few matings.  She also expected me to watch a few whelpings, even if it was inconvenient in the early hours of the morning, of both her and her friend's bitches.  She also expected me to go along every week once a litter was born to watch the litter progress and see what was needed at each stage.  I had a young daughter and she lived 40 miles away so that was not always easy to do!

After going with her to many shows for a couple of years, she then let me have the best bitch from her next litter to breed on from because by then she knew that I was committed to doing my best for the breed and also had enough knowledge to be able to pass on to the new puppy owners.

I have happily done a similar thing to a few novices over the last 30 years.  Others didn't have the committment and dropped by the wayside.

To me breeding is not like trying out a new cake recipe that you can throw in the bin when it goes wrong.  The learning should be done BEFORE mating is considered to minimise the risks that are always there when you're dealing with nature.

Each to their own but I think I would rather help them in planning and caring for their own litter and being if there if they need me.  Proving the bitches worth initially being a given :)

>Each to their own but I think I would rather help them in planning and caring for their own litter and being if there if they need me.  Proving the bitches worth initially being a given

I'd rather they got one else where.

Each to their own but I think I would rather help them in planning and caring for their own litter and being if there if they need me.  Proving the bitches worth initially being a given :-)

Having put so much of me into my puppies, I would rather they didn't put my precious puppy at risk.

> Having put so much of me into my puppies, I would rather they didn't put my precious puppy at risk.

So where do the next generation of breeders come from?

Those who show an interest in the breed and not just producing puppies with no knowledge. :) 
No breed needs people who are only interested in breeding and not the good of the breed without serving an apprenticeship first, and that takes time to learn, even with a mentor to help.  :)
Breeding should be the last not first thought.

> I'd rather they got one else where.

What a waste if the puppy you bred turned out to be rather worthy of breeding, and perhaps more importantly, of value to your breed in health terms, or do you think nobody can possibly be as intelligent or ethical as we are :)

> No breed needs people who are only interested in breeding and not the good of the breed without serving an apprenticeship first, and that takes time to learn, even with a mentor to help.  :-)
> Breeding should be the last not first thought.

I would agree but it comes at some point.

I would agree but it comes at some point.

And that point should be after learning NOT wanting to mate a pet bitch. :)

> And that point should be after learning NOT wanting to mate a pet bitch.

Do you mean a bitch that has not been shown or worked?  I would agree.

And spent time learning about the breed, mating/breeding/rearing processes, which is different everytime and so takes a good while to develop a good foundation of knowledge.

> And spent time learning about the breed, mating/breeding/rearing processes, which is different everytime and so takes a good while to develop a good foundation of knowledge.

Indeed.  Like I said, you would expect them to be intelligent and ethical and really quite capable of responding to mentorship.

>What a waste if the puppy you bred turned out to be rather worthy of breeding, and perhaps more importantly, of value to your breed in health terms, or do you think nobody can possibly be as intelligent or ethical as we are

Hardly!

I've just come to the position with my highly successful line that I can offer a puppy to someone I feel is the right person for that puppy.
They are going to people who are engaged in rigorous health strategies in my breed.
If you knew much about the health issues plaguing my breed you would realise how naive I would be to let key puppies go to novices ........just to seem fair or unselfish.

And yes, when it comes to some breeds...there aren't many "intelligent or ethical " people when taken as a percentage of those churning out and abusing the commercial nature of these sweet little dogs.
I'm not so desirous of imparting my knowledge as to risk an important and key dog going to the wrong person.

    And spent time learning about the breed, mating/breeding/rearing processes, which is different everytime and so takes a good while to develop a good foundation of knowledge.

Indeed.  Like I said, you would expect them to be intelligent and ethical and really quite capable of responding to mentorship.

And so round in a circle and back to the original question 'Would I remove the endorsement on a puppy that I bred?'

I don't know about your situation but if a novice breeder wanted to have a litter, I wouldn't want them to learn on one of my bitches.......

Would you help them find a breeder that would be willing to mentor them then?

And the answer is still No. :(

> If you knew much about the health issues plaguing my breed you would realise how naive I would be to let key puppies go to novices ........just to seem fair or unselfish.
>

In many breeds the health issue do not become clear until much older.  Sometimes too, the issue may be so widespread that everything must be considered.  In a breed that I was involved with the breed club at one point issued an edict requesting that ANYONE with a healthy bitch consider breeding her.

> And yes, when it comes to some breeds...there aren't many "intelligent or ethical " people when taken as a percentage of those churning out and abusing the commercial nature of these sweet little dogs.

I would agree, infact I would say that would apply to any breed.

> Indeed.  Like I said, you would expect them to be intelligent and ethical and really quite capable of responding to mentorship.
>
> And so round in a circle and back to the original question 'Would I remove the endorsement on a puppy that I bred?'
>

Not sure how the first leads to the latter but fair enough you don't want to and that is your perogative.  :)

ALL the pups I produce are endorsed, one per year may go as a pet. The others are placed with experienced breeders who agree to wait until the recommended age has been reached, suggested by researchers as a fair balance between risk of late onset and whelping risk, and then we health test them...rigorously.

At present, three in this process are owned by vets, here and abroad.

> The others are placed with experienced breeders who agree to wait until the recommended age has been reached, suggested by researchers as a fair balance between risk of late onset and whelping risk, and then we health test them...rigorously.
>

Very good :) but I am not suggesting anyone would mentor a novice breeder who was not likely to be equally ethical.

So having made that sort of effort and commitment, why on earth would you lift an endorsement for someone who came asking for a pet and has little knowledge of the breed or breeding? 
Perhaps it maybe it's the difference between those who have experience and knowledge and others who think that they have...?  We all have some in the breed for 5 years and have absorbed all the information available and those who have been around for 10 years and can write their knowledge on a postage stamp? :)
This is getting boring and repetitive now so I shall leave the thread. :)

Indeed, but our plans need a lot of commitment and skill with little or no return in the short-medium term.

Doesn't shout novice to me..hence my suggestion that maybe they should source elsewhere

> We all have some in the breed for 5 years and have absorbed all the information available and those who have been around for 10 years and can write their knowledge on a postage stamp?

Indeed :) As I keep saying I am not suggesting you would ever consider someone not intelligent, capable and ethical.

> This is getting boring and repetitive now so I shall leave the thread.

As you wish :)

Six years ago I bought a male pup from a reputable breeder, endorsements on him which was fully explained to me.I became involved in the breed/showing/training and asked breeder if she would consider lifting endorsements if all relevant health checks were done. Tests were fine and endorsements were lifted. By this time the breeder had become a friend and mentor.
I never used the dog, I had several requests, one from the breeder to use on a bitch she knew well,  but decided it wasn't for me as I had a lot on in my home life at that time.

Three years later I bought a female pup, same breed, different breeder. Again pedigree had endorsements, contract same as other breeder. Both breeders know each other very well. Breeder kept a litter brother and sister to show and both are now champions. I asked breeder if she would lift endorsements if health checks were done and satisfactory and was told no. Very politely asked what her reasons were as I considered myself a conscientiousness owner and not a novice as far as litters and breeding were concerned.......
"Oh well I might lift it but you would have to give me at least one pup from her litter"
Not really the answer I expected from a KC Accredited breeder with Accolade of Excellence. Bearing in mind she had litter brother and sister that are very succesful in the show ring.

I think my point is not all breeders are acting in the best interest of the breed when endorsements are put on. It is just to stop others making a profit which they are not going to get.
Also like to add my male dog was castrated before bitch was old enough to breed and she is now speyed without having been bred from and endorsements weren't mentioned again. I am still friends with first breeder but have lost respect for second.

There are scoundrels and users in all walks of life.

Tapping on at the end here.
There have been comments made in this thread that breeders don't want novice breeders having a litter from one of their breeding. This to me if the person who is wanting to have a litter has done everything right, asked questions, learnt and asked more questions, works or shows the breed and proved that said dog is a good example of the breed and basically meets temperament and is a healthy example smacks of someone insanely selfish!! Yes you have those who clearly will be wanting to breed for the wrong reasons but what is so wrong with someone starting with a decent bitch for their foundation line? Why should they go to another breeder for a potentially poorer or less quality?
Without sharing your knowledge with the newbies who want to learn and move the breed forward you'll end up dead in the water with no one to continue these potentially great lines..

We all have to start somewhere and starting with an inferior bitch will not help the breed in any way...

Of course there are those whos ethics clearly show they don't have the breed in their heart and yes I agree with not ever lifting...

It took me nearly 2yrs to get a breeder willing to even discuss with me my request for a show/breed quality bitch, I was honest about my plans from the outset,it would have been so much easier to buy any unendorsed bitch but I wanted to start with the best and have the help and support of the breeder to reach my goal.

My first litter was born 7yrs after I first decided to try showing/breeding from the second bitch I got from the breeder who gave me a chance, we would chat for 2-3hrs on the phone about lines,possible studs etc. and I soaked up info like a sponge, as she was 200 miles away she couldn't be present for the whelping but her and the stud owner were ringing up regularly if I hadn't rang them with a progress report and everything went well and 3 pups arrived Xmas Morning, labour had started at 8am Xmas Eve and the last pup arrived at 2.50am.

In the face of obstacles not many will stick to their guns re the quality of the bitches they get, too many go into breeding on a whim and I would not support such a breeder.

just to add to this thread i have bought my puppy from a top breeder in the breed and feel very luck to have her she is endorsed and everything is set out clearly in the contract i.e min age on which she can be bred, i must seek her help to find the best stud possible and as the only health test is a hereditary one no need for them so was more than happy with these conditions. but i have seen some peoples contracts where the breeder has verbally said they will lift the endorsments as long as x and y is met and approved, but yet on the written signed contract it states breeder MAY lift the endorsments but no conditions on which they will so i think breeder should write a very clear contract to say either they will never lift of list circumstances under which they will.

An interesting thread with many different scenario's.  Did the person who bought this puppy sign a contract and have the restriction details explained to them?  If the breeder is jealous, then I would suggest they would be happy to lift restriction with conditions, e.g. be involved with stud etc and being given the option of pick of litter etc.

I would suggest there may be other issues behind this that you/we are not aware of. 

Whether or not the KC would lift a restriction will depend on contract etc.  When we as breeders put restrictions on our puppies we do so knowing that only we can lift them and wouldn't expect to be challenged on this. 

Can I tell you about the experience of someone I know - she had a litter from her pet bitch - very well bred and used a super stud dog.  Sensibly she had put restrictions on them and had an excellent contract.  When pups were about 9 months old she became aware that one pup had had its eyes tested - alarm bells started to ring and did some investigations including speaking to stud dogs owner.  It was discovered that the pup had been sold to another 'breeder' but she never mentioned she had several other dogs or indeed had ever bred a litter.  As a precaution, she wrote to the KC with copies of her contract & emails etc stating she was concerned that the owner would want the restriction lifted and her wish to leave it in place.  Indeed the owner did have pups hip scored at a year old and asked for the endorsement to be lifted which was obviously refused.  The breeder offered to buy pup back but hasn't heard anything more.

Everyone has a different view on this subject and honesty is always the best way to deal with these things, plus keeping the breeder informed of how pup is progressing, not every week but once or twice a year but perhaps on it's birthday so the contact window is always open.  If you may at some stage want to breed from a pup you've bought, then you should discuss prior to purchase and find out if there is any chance or conditions etc.  

Be interested to know if you do appeal to the KC and the result.

Be interested to know if

The KC guidance says they will uphold endorsements if properly applied and purchaser made aware. 

The person applying endorsements does not have any responsibility to any further purchaser claiming ignorance. 

So I think the KC are likely to say the parties have to come to an agreement between themselves.

I think re allowing newcomers to breed from a first bitch within two or three years of purchase really does very much depend on breed, it's numbers, and any serious issues a breed has.

In my own breed registrations have reached a level that is unsustainable based solely on the dogs bred in this country, which necessitates frequent imports to keep it viable, an expensive option.  Any import will only be able to sire a couple of litters before safe saturation point with his genes (so no hope of recouping the import costs).  Travelling abroad you may get your litter, may or may not get a pup worth continuing with, and very high chance that your very expensively got pups will mostly end up in purely pet homes, in effect wasted from the breeds gene pool.

So in this breed we desperately need new blood of the committed new exhibitor breeder type who are able to offer the breed the required commitment, to both pups bred, and their new owners.  Even among regular exhibitors of the breed for decades, some do not feel they can commit to lifetime responsibility for puppies, or have the time or facilities to breed litters.  So anyone willing to do things properly would be mentored and welcome. 

Yet we still have a nasty piece of work exploiting a bitch that a friend bred and endorsed.  She phoned the breeder with a litter already on the ground (Underage bitch and no Hip eye or DNA testing of either parent) expecting endorsements lifting even though the contract clearly said that they would only be lifted if bitch over two and all health tests done.

This was refused, unless the tests were done on both parents (would probably have cost them £1000 to fully test both).  So off she went cursing all those including myself who corresponded with her over the matter, and registered them with the organisation beloved of BYB/Puppy farmers. 

She advertises herself as the only breeder in the North East (and implies there are only other breeders in the South, patently not true).  The results of her breeding (excellent lines but high chance that she may produce PRA as both parents of her litters have known carriers in their pedigrees).  The poor bitch has had litter after litter, one of which has also been used by a PF/BYB for further breeding.

Due to the scarcity of puppies bred by ethical caring breeders these people charging a little less sell their puppies with no problems.  Of course we get a steady stream coming through rescue which is financed by those same caring ethical people and those who have bought from them, and help support rescue.  Most of her buyers will be happy with healthy typcial pups, thanks to the lines behind bred ethically from health concious breeders from health tested stock, at their expense.

I can quite understand in popular over exploited breeds breeders only willing to allow their stock to be bred from by people who have sered an apprenticeship and proved themselves over a good length of time.

I do agree though if a beginner has a really good animal to restrict it from adding it's good points to the breeds gene pool seems silly.

The problem can be that once restrictions are lifted they cannot be re-applied.  Even the best animals cannot be bred from willy nilly, they may be carriers of a genetic issue, which means they should only be bred from with utmost care and knowledge, or if the level of clear animals in the gen pool is high, not at all.  There are certain traits, less obvious health concerns etc that mean certain bloodlines should not be mixed, something that isn't black and white and needs in depth knowledge.

Yes I agree Barbara, horses for courses ....but in a hugely exploited breed like mine, where every Tom, Dick and Harry has a litter (often to subsidise their primary breed) why would someone  risk letting a key puppy go to someone unproven and with little idea of the realities of the situation.

The Dog fancy is fickle. One day A is friends with B...next day they have fallen out. In the lifetime of my puppy ....a novice owner, finding their niche, may make and break friends with all sorts of influences..not all to the benefit of my pups future.

It's a big problem, as we would wish for a steady stream of committed potential custodians of our breed to come through so the baton can be passed on, but avoid the bandwagon, casual kind.

Sadly the core of god breeders in many breeds is far smaller than the other kind that just produce puppies, but the more the core is constricted the worse the situation becomes.  Most new novice breeder/exhibitors have bred just the occasional litter every few years or maybe just the once to keep a homebred pup, and the established regular breeders have died and retired faster than any new people coming into the breed.  Many say they might like a litter and then when they realise the costs and commitment involved decide not to.

Good breeders due to cost and worry restrict their breeding activities only for the gap to be filled by the other kind as is happening with my breed.

I am almost certain there are more puppies bred the wrong way (based on dogs coming into rescue, and adverts seen) in our little known breed than the right way.  KC registrations are less than half what they were 20 years ago, and less than a 1/4 of what they were in 70's/80's.  We are talking less than 50 pups annual average over the last five years or so.

Also in breeds with small litters it is likely that fewer of the most suitable to be bred on from pups will be sold to novice owners.  As one of our members here found obtaining a show breeding quality bitch was next to impossible as quite rightly the breeder was most likely to have kept one that they were lucky enough to get.  In breeds with larger litter there will often be several quality animals in the litter of each sex, as evidenced by some of the top brood bitches records.