I'll add some more info, so this may be long, but the short of it is that Buster wont sleep in a different room to us.

As a pup I spent a lot of time making sure he wouldn't develop any seperation anxiety. He slept down stairs with our other dog, for the first couple of months Buster would be in the kitchen and our oldie in the livingroom, seperated by a stair gate (oldie took a while to accept pup). Then, when oldie accepted  pup, they would both sleep in the livingroom. Oldie was PTS when Buster was 1 yr old, BUster was upset for a few weeks, but no behaviour changes - Buster had always peed in the livingroom at night. During the day times, I would get Buster used to being in a room on his own - very gradually eg. keep in behind the stair gate in the kitchen while I put the washing on the line and gradually extend the time he would be on his own.

If I was to be out of the house for more than 15 mins, I'd get family to puppy-sit so he wasn't on his own. Again, the time he spent with no people in the house was gradually increased. He has no problems with being left alone.

In April last year (Buster was 4 yrs old), we turned our bedroom into an office and started to sleep in the livingroom - hey presto Buster hasn't peed in the house since!!! (8 months piddle-free, wow, never thought we'd see that happen!!!!!)

2 nights ago we moved our bed into the kitchen  and slept in there. Buster woke me up (puts his muzzle on my face and gentle rubs it all over my face tickling me with his whiskers) several times and I could hear him pacing around. I opened the door to the garden twice but he refused to go out for a wee. When I got up in the morning, he had peed twice in the living room and did a nice big poop in there to. He spent all of yesterday moping around the house like nobody loves him! (I never react negatively to him toileting in the house - his moping was down to us sleeping in the kitchen).

Last night, he woke me up again - I lured him into the garden with a biccy, he weed, I sent him back to his bed in the livingroom, I went back to mine in the kitchen and a little while later I heard him snoring his head off :) A couple of hours later he woke me again. I lured him into the garden, he sqeezed out a wee. I went to the loo (in the house, not the garden!), when I came back downstairs, Buster was in my bed. (LOL, hubby woke to Busters huge butt in his face :-D )
I couldn't face trying to move him as I knew I'd just get him waking me up again, so I slept on the sofa.

This morning he doesn't look unloved! He looks happy, contented and full of it.

The problem is, he can't sleep in a different room to us. When our bed was in the living room, he only tried to sleep in it with us for the first few nights and soon realised it simply is not big enough for the 3 of us, so would happily sleep in his own bed.

I really can't see an answer to this - our house is small, the kitchen door is only seperated from the livingroom door by the width of the stairs - the rooms are next to each other. It's not as if it's a large house, he would be able to hear us breathing as I can him. He can be in the house on his own and have no problem - he doesn't wee or poop and you can see by his 'bed hair' that he's been sleeping. He just can't settle in a different room to us at night.

We have no problem if we have to arrange things so we sleep in the same room as Buster - I'm going to try bringing his bed into the kitchen with us tonight, it's just going to be a squeeze because his bed is a single mattress with a bit chopped of the end.

I have tried leaving a the light on in the living room for him and/or the TV, but these make no difference. I can't try making our bed gradually further away from the  living room as the hallway is too narrow - it's either one room or the other.

The ideal situation would be that we win the lottery and buy a big house with a large bedroom on the ground floor (he doesn't 'do' stairs) for our bed AND Busters LOL. I just wondered if there is perhaps something I haven't thought about. It would be nice that he could settle in a different room to us at night, but not essential (he does fine in the day). I'd be really interested to know what I could have done differently to avoid this happening (if anything - is it just him needing to be with his 'peeps') - it will be very usefull for future reference :)

Hi Mastifflover, long time no speak/see so am waving :-)

I think this isn't as strange as you might think, I mean the fact that he will settle and not toilet while you are out but can't seem to tolerate the fact that you are away from him at night.

My very scaredy girly arrived and when she stopped hating me developd terrible SA, so bad that if I moved from one room to another there would be pee and poo straight away, and on occasions, would be taking the poo to the bin clearning up and when I came back into the room there would be more (she had to be separated at times because couldn't mix with the other dogs, so couldn't just follow me).  With lots owork the SA gradually impoved nad I built up to being able to leave her for a few hours.  However if I was in the house it was a different matter.  I think often dogs do know the difference between settle time in the day and you are out so they accpet that but when you are in (and of course they know that even if they can't see you by smell and breathing and so on) the find it very hard to be separated from you.  I spent a year being a bit confined to one roon in the evenings because she really couldn't cope with me in the house but not with her.  Gradually she learnt to accept me out iof the room fro longer periods.  I would get up chuck some treats and go and make a cup of tea and built up slowly.  Then I started to spend time plonked on a bean bag near the baby gate so she coulod see me and and know I was close but in a different room.  It was all done very slowly making massive positive associations with me being near and then slighly further away and increasing (increments of increases for her were literally half a foot at a time).

It took lots of positive associations and to start with I had to have her in my room at night (it took over a year of her being in my room at night) then I slept down staris for some time in the next rooom to her and she could see me through the baby gate, luckily my house set up allows for this.  It really took over a year fro her to be settled here and to really trust me and feel secure enoug for all this to happen.  Now finally over a couple of years down the line I can sleep up stairs (and two others do too) and she is happy to remain down stiars and is very relaxd about it.  She was extreme as has several very big issues.  The only time now she can;t cope with me being in another room and not seeing me is if someone else is here but other than that, life is 'normal'

I think the very best way to make sure from a pup that dogs don't devlop SA issues, is contrary to what used to be thought.  To make sure that they experience no anxiety to start with, just as much when you arein the house as out of it.  So them sleeping with you at night and gradually decreasing that whent hey have had time to settle and adjust.  There are dogs that will dealw ith the old way of doing things and suffer no adverse effects, the trouble is you don't know until it's done if they are one of those or not.

I think often people think because a pup is quiet at night that it is perfectly happy but that isn't always the case, some dogs are just quiet about their anxiety and leave you puddles and the like!

I think for now certainly I'd be seeing how he copes in the kitchen at night with you (if the option for you returning to the lounge isn't possible) and see how he copes with that.  I'm guessing the hallway between kitchen and lounge isn;t big enough for a Buster bed?

I'd also maybe inest in a DAP collar for him and see if taht helps and I'd maybe leave him with a filled kong at bed time to see if that chewing and licking might just help him chill and relax.  There is also the option of adding somethig you have slept in with the night before as a comfort blanket type thing.  So maybe having a couple and rotating each night.

I'm writing really quickly ason my way out to see a dog, but is all probably stuff you are aware of anyway.

Take care,

Karen

Hi Karen :-D I'm waving back :)

Thank you so much for your reply.

Bust will settle fine in the day in a different room to me/us. Right now he's happily snoring in his bed downstairs, while hubby & I are upstairs in the office (we work from home). But as I said, I did get him gradually used to being away from me in the daytime.

It's just night times. I wrongly assumed that, as a pup, he never made a peep at night, so  thought he was fine on his own and put his toileting in the house at night down to me getting his house-training wrong. Even with he weeing in the house at night as an adult, I was convinced that it was my poor toilet-training skills that had taught him it was OK to wee in the house at night as he never seemed stressed or anxious (I know toileting can be a sign of anxiety, but he seemed so OK in himself if you get what I mean). I wish I knew then what you have told me now.

By the time we thought about going to bed last night, it was too late for us to be bothered moving beds around - to fit Busters bed in the kitchen with ours would mean more furniture re-araging so we decided to sleep in the livingroom on the sofa. As soon as he saw me go to bed on the sofa, he climbed up and joined me - taking what would have been OH's spot. He looked so comfy that OH didn't have the heart to move him and instead of him sleeping on his own in the kitchen, OH slept in Busters bed, LOL.

With us all together in the same room, I actually had an entire nights sleep without being woken up by an unsettled Buster.

Busters bed wouldn't fit in our narrow hallway. I've spoken to OH today about what options we have to try to get Buster out of this night-time seperation anxiety, but he is happy for us to have to spend the rest of Busters life sleeping in the same room as him - even if we do manage to get a bigger house like we plan, he knows we will not be able to sleep in a different room to the dog (and as Buster can't do stairs with his bad front legs, we wont be sleeping in an 'upstairs' bedroom for years.
So, we are going to move our bed back into the livingroom. As I said, we are not bothered by altering our sleeping arrangements to keep Buster contented and as long as we are in the same room as Buster at night then he has no problems.

BUT, I am going to print this out, in case things ever change and we need to change things, the tips of the 'comfort' blanket and the small incriments of moving further away gradually will be a major help.

It's good to know the cause of his unsettled-ness at night, but I'm rather frustrated with myself that it could have so easily been avoided. The next pup we have (not planning on any in the near future, but one day) will be tucked up next to my bed in the early days/weeks- or me tucked up next to pups bed if it's another breed that we wont be allowing on the stairs.

Poor Buster, as a pup he must have been frightened to be on his own in the kitchen at night, but he didn't vocalise it :( I feel like such a meanie.

Again, thank you for you help, I really appreciate it :)

mastifflover,

The other thing is that the night can produce scary, spooky noises and smells (foxes are out and about big time right now and this unfailingly unsettles my dog year in, year out) those noises are amplified by the relative quite of nighttime. So it could be that Buster has heard something that has sparked his anxiety again and he just needs to be right next to you to feel safe. The other though is that like us dogs get periods of feeling off colour/under par and this can also make them feel vulnerable.

Think KC's suggestions are excellent.

I'm hoping that you can quickly rebuild his confidence and get back to normal.

Someone needs to invent a personal hologram that can be sent over to soothe the dog when necessary, while the real person stays tucked up.

Thanks for your reply freelancer. :)

I probably didn't make it clear in my first post, I can't seem to help waffling! Buster has weed in the house at night from the first day I brought him home as a pup - every night, untill 8 months ago when we moved our bed into the livingroom with him (he was 5 years old in July). Since we've slept in the same room as him he has not weed or pooped in the house. A few days ago we moved our bed out to the kitchen and he weed & pooped in the livingroom (that's where he sleeps) after spending most of the night trying to wake me up and refusing to go out to loo - he just wanted me out of bed.

I don't think anything outside his disturbing him at night.
I've seen badgers in our garden which Buster has never bothered sniffing around for, and he has seen foxes, muntjack deer & squirrels cross our path when out on a walk, but he doesn't pay the slightest bit of interest atall. He really couldn't care less about wildlife, LOL.
He also doesn't react to any neighbours dogs that may bark at night. One thing that can unsettle him is a lot very loud fireworks, but he seeks refuge at the bottom of our dark, narrow hallway, he doesn't seek comfort from us.

>Someone needs to invent a personal hologram that can be sent over to soothe the dog when necessary, while the real person stays tucked up.

Ah, that sounds like a great idea :)

ML,

No you have not waffled. I had forgotten, but remember now.

It's an interesting case. He's a sensitive boy isn't he. I guess a part of me feels that to a dog sleeping in a separate space from his family is odd and unnatural and possibly feels a bit punishing. Many dogs can be conditioned to sleep apart from us and get on with it but perhaps some can't. The pooing and weeing may be anxiety or it could be he knows that one way or another that is what will get you back in his space....where you should be!

Part of me would like to know what he'd do if you just ignored him- put up a barrier so he can still see and hear you and put down a large tarp at night in his space so he poo and wee. You'd have to clean it up each morning but other than that the behaviour would be ignored. He'd probably get extremely anxious and upset and much worse for a time and then there is an outside chance that he'd begin to accept things. However, it's really high risk and things could go badly wrong. I'm just thinking out loud here and in no way suggesting you should try this.

Think the incremental approach is safest but it could take a long time, plus he always has his star turn-the poop and pee weapon in reserve.

By the way, do you think part of his need to be right by you at night is so he can monitor you- his group? I know he has always done it but could it be enhanced by his Mastiff makeup?

What you really need is a castle with a giant bedroom and bed, big enough for you all.

I was reading yesterday of a new piece of research that has found that babies left to cry themselves to sleep at night sleep longer and sooner, the suggestion being it is better for them to learn to "self pacify" and that this is perfectly within their capacity. 
Now, I do not know if this is transferable to puppies but it is certainly food for thought perhaps :). 

When I did my Psychology MA I remember a study which said babies which were cuddled and attended to during their first 6 months cried less & settled faster during the next 6 months.   Of course there is also the learned helplessness study which showed when animals were treated to a noxious stimulus they couldn't avoid they eventually gave up trying to escape.   So you could say that the babies/creatures left alone when they were very young either learned to be very anxious and failed to settle later on - or were so distressed they gave up.  Either way my belief is that it's better to provide comfort & security to a young being, and that this sets them up to become more confident adults. 

> So you could say that the babies/creatures left alone when they were very young either learned to be very anxious and failed to settle later on - or were so distressed they gave up.

..or learned to self pacify and slept :) much in the way that children who do not have constant attention and amusement learn to cope with boredom where their opposite numbers may not.
I guess there will never be agreement in the raising of puppies any more than there is with children :)

Hi ML,

I can fully understand why Buster is getting distressed if I slept downstairs my girl would definitely wish to be with me, whereas in the daytime she wouldn't give a hoot, it's not entirely anything to do with separation anxiety, it goes back to a natural instinct of safety in numbers on a night-time, partly an instinctual protective instinct and part company too.

What's happening isn't so strange if you think about it, I wouldn't even bother trying to make him be separate from you on a night-time if you continue to sleep downstairs, no point IMO he doesn't understand it, ever bone in his body is saying he should be with you. Many dogs will be fine not to sleep with their owners in the same room on a night-time depends on the character, but just as many would wish to be in the same room with them in this situation. He's a big softy and if you're there on a night he'll want to be too.

If you moved back upstairs, you could re-train any separation anxiety if needed, personally I think if you can't move your office into the garden/garage or the room itself then I'd just make the room your bedroom so that you can all sleep in there together, less stressful for all concerned, and no doubt Buster will have a good nights sleep with no accidents, sometimes it's not worth the upset. :-)

No Problems :-)  An you are far from a meanie, you've always done your very best for Buster an it's always been obvious just how much you love and care for him, and we are all learning as we go and learn new things with each dog, is one of the things I love about meeting new dogs, they all teach us something new :-)

Stooge, some dogs will learn to self pacify, because they learn they have to - they would have learnt that had things been done the other way, but just more gradually and without experienceing the same levels of stress.  Like I said in my initial post, the trouble is doing things the, leave them to earn to self pacify way is that some dogs just learn to be anxious and SA problems can develop and you don't know which dogs they will be till it's too late and they have experienced enough stress and anxiety to cause you problems further down the line (never mind the stress they have experienced).  There have been quite a few studies ont his with both species and some results have hown that kiddies that haven;t been left to learnt to self soothe often tend to have less anxieties and find being independant more easy as adults if things have been done slowly. The same with dogs.  Of course our dogs need to learn to experience stress as life does throw stress at us/them at times of no choice but it does need to be done in a controlled way and gently and with gradaul exposure to stress - for many pups that is not the case when they are left to cry it out and 'self soothe'.

Carrington, I think to be honest this is a type of SA with Buster, because he has always shown signs of anxiety by toileting at night, even when they were upstairs and toileting when  not able to be with a dos people even though close in the house whether at night or not is not a normal, non anxious response.

I think part of the resons dogs often respond differently as in wanting to be with people at night or differentiating with people going out at night for example is down to the old generalisation much more so thatn going back to any roots (which of course they are a long way removed from now).  My current guys are not used to me going out at night and when I do, it normally involves me wearing non stinky, mucky doggie clothes (or less so :-P) which they are always used to seeing me in (classy girl that I am).  So that change togther with it being dark means I am going out and it is not generalised for them so they find it strange and get quite manic/anxious about it.  However with previous dogs it was different and it was something fairly normal for them so they were generalised to it and it was no different than if I went out for a few hours in the day - it was time for a goody and snooze.

I think ML, that I would be inclined to do as you are and change my routine if it is not a big deal so that he is not stressed and if sleeping down stairs for the rest of hslife is no biggie to you adn your OH then that is probably what I would do and maybe if you were in a position to owrk on things further at some point then it might be an idea todo so very slowly, just from the POV that you never know when he may have to spend some nights alone (dog forbid you or your POH being poorly or needing to be away for some other reason) just makes it easier for them to deal with the unexpected if they have some prep work done on areas of anxiety :-).  But like you would want to make sure he was generaly happy and relaxed at night - which for him obviously means beingwit you. My little one was in intensive care in March of this year and I spent 6 months, on te bloomin floor (just as well I love her :-D ) down stairs with her.  We just adjust to what they need from us if we can, don't we.  Buster is very lucky to have you and your OH :-)  Give him a squidge from me.

> leave them to earn to self pacify way is that some dogs just learn to be anxious and SA problems can develop and you don't know which dogs they will be till it's too late and they have experienced enough stress and anxiety to cause you problems further down the line

Equally, not learning self pacifying skills at the appropriate time may lead to stress when it becomes necessary to apply them at a less malleable age :)
I really would not say this was the definative study, clearly it is not.  Maybe all it is teaching us is we look for the evidence that we approve of ;) or maybe it tells us that there are many ways to rear young animals and we may never know we have applied them appropriately to an particular individual and we can only work them in a way that suits us.

KC,

I agree with you and would conclude that Buster is just one of those dogs that needs to sleep with his family.

My boys are fine when we go out but if I am at home they like to be with me all the time (both laying at my feet as I type)
We used to shut them out of the bedroom at night with a baby gate but they were destructive, they chewed up their beds during the night and gouged out plaster from the walls.  As soon as we took the gate down this stopped, most nights they spend the night on a quilt on the floor beside my bed.  Sometimes one will stay downstairs or in the summer they will sleep outside on the balcony but they are much happier knowing they can be with us if they want to or come and check on us every so often.

> I know he has always done it but could it be enhanced by his Mastiff makeup

I have thought about this, as the need to watch over us is very deeply ingrained in him and I knew the breed need the company of thier humans, perhaps his instinct to be with us a stonger than most (I don't think all Mastiff owners find they need to sleep in the same room as thier dogs :) ), or it could be a bit of both - being left alone at night as a pup wilst having the need to be with us, making him unsettled at night?
Oh, if only our dogs could talk to us :)

He did wake me last night, but he never meant to, he climbed on top of OH during the night and the yell of pain as OH legs were crushed under Busters weight woke me LOL, I told Buster to get back to his bed, he did so and never disturbed either of us again - apart form to wake OH up this morning, (once one of us is out of bed, Buster has taken it as his responsibility to wake the remaining sleeper up!).

> He's a big softy

Oh definately! If he gets on the sofa with me/OH in the daytime, he climbs on, turns so his bum is facing me, reverses up close so when he finally slams him bum down,  it knocks the wind out of me - if he feels he's still not close enough, he'll fidget & shuffle backwards. Once he's close enough for the weight of him to deaden my leg, he'll let out a contented grumble/snore type noise and settle down for a nap. If I then slump over on top of him, he's even happier! The biggest baby you've ever met :)

My OH insists there is nothing to figure out - Buster is a big baby and that's the end of it!