Hi All,

Am after abit of advice.

We have a gorgeous 10 week old beagle puppy at home with us.

He is an outstanding little fella who is learning very well in most thing, apart from his crate at night. He is fine when he first goes in there, if he's tired. We put a blanket over it at night time so as he clearly distinguishes between night and day crate time. However, he cries most of the night. It is not because he needs to relieve himself because he is put outside to do his 'business' before bed and he is fab at doing this in our garden.
He is  not frightened of being in his cage as he will freely get in there to have 5 mins on his own or when we're in the kitchen he will sleep in there. We do not lock him in there unless we go out for an hour during the day, at which point he is fine in there.

We're just having a dilemma at night!

I'd appreciate any help on this please.

Cheers

He's lonely; for the first 8+ weeks of his life he slept in a heap of brothers and sisters with mum, and now he's on his own, like a small child away at boarding school for the first time. During the day there's no problem because there's so much happening, but bedtime's another matter! The 'old school' method was to put a hot water bottle in the puppy's bed along with a ticking clock (supposed to simulate a heartbeat); nowadays peple tend to have the puppy's bed/crate beside their own (or they sleep downstairs by the crate for a few nights) so that they can just reach out when pup gets distressed and reassure him that he hasn't been abandoned. Where do you have his crate?

Hi Jean.

We have his crate in the kitchen.
I had always been advised against crate in the bedroom as he'll get too used to being by you all the time.

I'd welcome personal experiences though for advice.

Cheers Sam

no, they never get 'too' used to being by you all the time - they need to be as little pups, they get able to cope as they grow older... I much prefer pups to be happy and near me when they're little, it's very easy to transfer them (slowly) to where you want them to sleep long term as they become more independent.... I hate to hear a pup crying and unhappy... it's much more 'natural' for them to be with the 'pack' or at least their owners.

My puppy cried at night so his crate was put upstairs with us and he slept soundly. He is now almost 7 months old and we moved him downstairs a week ago into a bigger crate and no problems with him at all, he just goes straight to sleep. He probably could have moved down a lot sooner but we decided to let him stay upstairs until he no longer fitted in his puppy crate.

I too would recommend bringing his crate into your bedroom.  If he stirs you can pet him through the bars & maybe take him out for a quick quiet wee which will help with toilet training too.

Don't worry - you aren't being soft & he won't get used to it and demand it in future.  He's probably lonely & scared.  This is a golden opportunity to improve your bond with him by providing comfort to him.

I had always been advised against crate in the bedroom as he'll get too used to being by you all the time.

Yeah, that's a bit of unfounded 'advice' some controlling people like to give :-(

Put him beside your bed at night. He'll hear you breathing, if he gets unsettled you can just re-assure him. As Jeangenie said, it's loneliness ... heck of a shock as it is to go to a new home, but then to be abandoned at night time after all those lovely warm bodies to snuggle up with, must be horrible.

If you really want him sleeping downstairs, give him a week and move him down, just give him chance to settle properly and feel at ease in his new home :-) All my pups start off by my bed, sometimes that's where they stay, for ever. I start my pups off with overnight crate training before they leave home, so that they are used to sleeping 'solo', however, they are still in my bedroom so that they don't feel isolated and alone, and all my pup owners are asked, ok ... TOLD! to have pup beside their beds for the first week. :-D

wish I had done this with my last pup. she is the first one I have had that didnt settle in her crate properly at night. Result ? I stopped using the crate really to early have had problems night time housetraining. Next pup will be a along side me in its crate :) 
As it happens this dog is a very people breed ( flatcoat) and loves nothing better than to be at my side a real velcro dog which I am fine with> If you can have acrte by your bed or in your room do it is my advice

Hi Bentley, I too have a 10 week old who is crated at night but she also has a playpen (3 sides) fastened to it and the front cage door is always left open so that she can move out and play with her toys if she wants to or can have a drink from a bowl without it being upset on her bedding. Through the day the side door to the cage is left open then she can go in, which she often does when she wants to but that door is also closed at bedtime. She goes to bed when I go to bed and she seems to know this now and she's been quiet the past two weeks.
Have you got a playpen you can adapt and try? Its worked on my others' too so I've only had a couple of nights in the beginning when she's barked or cried.

> Have you got a playpen you can adapt and try? Its worked on my others' too so I've only had a couple of nights in the beginning when she's barked or cried.

I do the same so have come to conclusion that it is not particularly loneliness that creates the problem (puppies, after all, are wired to be adaptable) just having a little freedom to see to their overnight needs.
There are many ways to rear a puppy and I would never say you have to have them in the bedroom if it does not suit you which, I guess, could be equally controlling ;)

I too use a open cage within a pen and set up next to where the adult dogs sleep and have never had a problem although they are really pleased to see you and be out of the pen in the morning. With a single dog household it would be best to at least have it near enough when a pup to be able to talk to it without waking the whole household.

>have come to conclusion that it is not particularly loneliness that creates the problem (puppies, after all, are wired to be adaptable)

Yes, puppies are adaptable, but they can howl loudly for weeks if the adaptation's not made easy for them.

Thanks for all your help.

Furriefriend, I do have the room by my bed so think this is the best option. My step son comes home from work late at night (sometimes 1-2am) and I think this unsettles him more so. If he is with us at night I'm hoping he will settle easier.
Missie, I don't have a play pen for him. To be honest, I don't have the room for one. He has only been put into his crate for an hr during the day if i pop out and at night.

xx

> Yes, puppies are adaptable, but they can howl loudly for weeks if the adaptation's not made easy for them.

I guess they would.  I am not saying you do not need to address the requirements to help them adapt I would just question whether that is necessarily company as it has not proved so in my experience.

>I would just question whether that is necessarily company

A dog, as a social species, is hard-wired to believe that being isolated from the group is potentially life-threatening, and is therefore something very distressing. A puppy will instinctively know this, even if we choose to ignore it. :-)

Believe me, cockers let you know when they are distressed :)
I think they soon get the gist that you will be back in the morning in the same way that they do when you leave them alone in the day. 

pups are born into a race which is 'pack orientated' and hardwired that to be banished from the 'pack' whether canine or human is a terrible thing, that they've done something so awful that they're being punished with the worst imaginable punishment... no wonder they cry... it's not a controlling thing to suggest that pups are part of the pack for their first few days/weeks/months and then learn that it's not a punishment, that they're near their family even if they're not in the same room.  I can think of no study where dogs haven't been found to be pack animals and where they haven't found that banishment is punishment...

> I can think of no study where dogs haven't been found to be pack animals and where they haven't found that banishment is punishment...

And yet we expect them to learn to spend time of their own. 
I really don't see the difference.  This is something they have to learn and I agree we should make them comfortable and secure as they learn but, in my experience and at least one other poster, it can be done in another room to your bedroom.......

> that they're near their family even if they're not in the same room. 

....oh, you said that :)

> it's not a controlling thing to suggest that pups are part of the pack for their first few days/weeks/months

Then it's not a controlling thing to suggest there are other ways of rearing pups :)

they  have to, but not as soon as they move from mum and siblings... we can give them a few months of life sleeping as a pack ;-)

mostly it IS a controlling thing (by a lot of people), but suggesting that pups are treated as near to their natural lifestyle isn't 'controlling' ...

> mostly it IS a controlling thing (by a lot of people), but suggesting that pups are treated as near to their natural lifestyle isn't 'controlling' ...

Sorry can't see the difference :) I certainly don't want someone telling me I must have a puppy sleeping in my bedroom for a few nights let alone a few months but then I wouldn't tell someone that they must have it sleep in the kitchen.
Maybe the least controlling is to say there are many ways of rearing a puppy and try whatever suits you first :).

if you're recommending someone to follow the natural aspects of dog training and ADVISING that they have the pup sleep in the bedroom, as the most natural way for the pup to sleep, having found that they are unhappy elsewhere, this is NOT controlling... having someone tell you that you should have your pup sleep in the kitchen away from the pack because the pup will develop unnaturally close connections with you and this must not be allowed to happen when you get your pup (not when you have an issue with it) is CONTROLLING

the op had a problem created by advice that they shouldn't have the pup in their bedroom and asked for advice... responding with a natural method of raising pups cannot be seen as controlling, well not in my book anyway ;-)

>I certainly don't want someone telling me I must have a puppy sleeping in my bedroom for a few nights let alone a few months but then I wouldn't tell someone that they must have it sleep in the kitchen.

As I pointed out in my first reply, it's not necessary to have the pup in the bedroom (although more comfortable for the owner ;-) ). People who don't like dogs in the bedroom (and I'm one) can sleep wherever they choose for the puppy for a few nights till the pup feels more settled. :-)

I really don't understand all this 'controlling' and 'non-controlling' ?? :( Most people are just trying to do their best for their dog - surely ?

In my view, the word 'controlling' isn't very pleasant and, as someone who has had a puppy in the kitchen, I would be most upset if I was labelled 'controlling' :)

> People who don't like dogs in the bedroom (and I'm one) can sleep wherever they choose for the puppy

Another option then :).  Think I prefer my own bed though.

That's how I feel Daisy.
To the OP, have you checked all the other comfort factors such as warmth?  Kitchens can be jolly cold when the heating goes off at night.  Sometimes it just needs some insulation above and below the crate and a more den like effect to get them settled.

I spent the first week sleeping by the crate & that worked perfectly.  The crate was covered to keep it warm & den-like.  I also put a max/min thermometer by the crate so I could see how cold it got (my breed is short haired & my bitch particularly feels the cold).

I think the 'controlling' aspect that people are talking about is the old fashioned approach which veered from tough love (it's just got to get used to it) to the old fashioned dominance following (eat before your dog, don't let it sit on you, don't let it have its head higher than yours).   This depicts the relationship with you and your puppy as a sort of war that you must win - and under no circumstances must the puppy 'get the upper hand'.

Daisy - the controlling 'discussion' was over how advice was given to the op, not how the op dealt with the pup ;-)   (that is, it wasn't about controlling the pup, rather the op!)

> it wasn't about controlling the pup, rather the op!) .

Still seems a strange choice of words. There is a lot of differing advice given on here, but I would never refer to it as controlling :)

it was the point though that in giving advice of a 'controlling' nature, rather than 'controlling' the pup.... not my choice of words, I was merely saying that in treating the pup in a natural way - by being with the pup rather than pushing it out of the pack, it wasn't 'controlling', particularly as it was to help the op with an expressed problem.... I forget who said it was controlling to have basically commanded the op to behave in a certain way....

yes this was the origin of the controlling theme

Yeah, that's a bit of unfounded 'advice' some controlling people like to give :-(

stooge then went on to say

I do the same so have come to conclusion that it is not particularly loneliness that creates the problem (puppies, after all, are wired to be adaptable) just having a little freedom to see to their overnight needs.
There are many ways to rear a puppy and I would never say you have to have them in the bedroom if it does not suit you which, I guess, could be equally controlling ;-)

which basically perpetuated the thread ;-)

I appreciate that you weren't the first person to use the word :) :)

However, you did say:

>mostly it IS a controlling thing (by a lot of people

My younger dog, when a pup, slept in the kitchen - albeit next to my older dog (pup was in a crate) and was checked on by me during the night for the first couple of nights etc. If and when we get another pup it will also sleep in the kitchen - alone, as we won't have another dog then - checked on again, of course. It is nothing to do with being controlling, it is that we do not wish to have a dog sleeping in our bedroom for many reasons and I don't see that the pup sleeping in the kitchen from the start is any different from moving it at a later date from the bedroom :)

People will always have their own way of doing things and there is not always just one right way of doing it - just a different opinion on what is right :)

No no no, you are totally taking this out of context, I said it was a controlling thing that people say things to make people act in certain ways - ie say you can't do something because the pup will take advantage of the situation (although of course I never actually said that, just agreed with it! lol!)  ... it's entirely your choice where your dog sleeps ;-)  and I've never said otherwise, I have said however that it's the most natural thing to sleep with the 'pack'

please please don't try and make out I've said anything otherwise.... ;-) cos I haven't!

>they are still in my bedroom so that they don't feel isolated and alone, and all my pup owners are asked, ok ... TOLD! to have pup beside their beds for the first week

Same here.  I have a needy breed, and see no reason to exclude it from it's pack by banishing it to a room alone.  All my new puppy owners are asked to have pup next to the bed so they can be reassured.  It also helps the owner to learn to recognise the pups need to go out for a wee.

> please please don't try and make out I've said anything otherwise

Sorry - had a difficult day yesterday :) The internet is so black and white - in 'real life', I usually disagree with a smile :) :)

no problem, we all have them ;-)  but, you don't have to 'disagree' but to accept what I said isn't what you thought I'd said :-)  my threads were a response about an accusation that my suggestions were as 'controlling' as someone else's - when imo they were about the 'natural' way of solving a problem caused by someone whom someone else said was 'controlling' lol... no wonder we're all confused!

> my threads were a response about an accusation that my suggestions were as 'controlling' as someone else's

I don't recall you being accused of anything :) as you have already pointed out, Penny, it was not you that used the phrase "controlling" and I don't think you have stated that people must have their puppies in with them.....or have you and I missed it? :).
I think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest something and why I just feel it is not right to say it is the only way and people must do it.........again, not accusing you of that!

> I had always been advised against crate in the bedroom as he'll get too used to being by you all the time.

I think others have probably already answered but it's worth remembering that it's the routines, and the crate/fleece/blanket etc, that your pup will learn to associate with bedtime, rather than the precise location.  This is one of the reasons why crate training can be a blessing if you travel with your dog/s.  The crate becomes a 'home from home' for a travelling dog and they learn to sleep anywhere :)

In the meantime sleeping nearby - I have mine alongside our bed for a few short weeks -  teaches him just exactly what he should do after lights out.  He'll soon learn that you are there, but unavailable and frankly a bit boring (!!) so he'll soon nod off.  Whilst he's learning this valuable lesson you will be learning his bladder timings and the difference between "I'm a bit bored can we play now please?"  and "Ooh quick I need a wee   ....NOW!" 

>no, they never get 'too' used to being by you all the time - they need to be as little pups, they get able to cope as they grow older...

Penny is absolutely right with this.  It is a basic attachment issue, which you can think of in terms of attachment theory (the same for people as for puppies - and the reason why baby goslings followed around their human carer in Lorenz's study). 

If you want your puppy to be ok when left alone, you need to provide him with an experience of being ok in the same circumstances with you right next to him.  Only once he has learnt that it's manageable with you there, will he also feel safe in similar situations without you there.  He comes to have a sense of safety inside himself, rather than provided by your physical presence.  In human terms, we might talk about the baby having internalised the mother's presence so that she can reassure herself - even when mother is away for short periods of time. 

If you don't want your puppy in the bedroom when older, I recommend carrying your puppy in and putting him in the crate by the bed (and carrying him out again) - don't let him find his own way in and out and wander about in there, learning the route in and out and the layout of the room etc.

Once your puppy is fine at night by your bed, gradually move the crate further away from the bed each night until it ends up back where you want it (downstairs, if that's where).  If, at any point in this process, the puppy becomes distressed, stop moving the crate away and if necessary move it back again for a few nights and progress away more gradually.  Don't be in a rush, there are no prizes for getting the crate downstairs soon.

Some puppies have absolutely no separation issues at all and are fine sleeping alone from the day their owners bring them home.  Others are very 'needy' and demanding and exhausting...  If you have this latter sort of puppy, you can think that you must be doing something wrong because you hear of other puppies which are fine.  That's not the case - puppies are very different.

Hi, our new baby is now 3months old, not having a pup for 3 yrs you forget about the crying at nights. especially when your baby has been brought in to your gang. The secret I found was to give readybreck with welping milk before we went to bed. She started to sleep untill 7am which was great.