I'm having one of those mornings where all sorts of things are mooching around inside my head, and planning ahead to the future comes into it too.

I recall recently reading on a post on CD someone asking "who decided puppies needed special, high protein, high oil content puppy food, when with growing children we don't rush off and buy special high protein, high oil content toddler food" - not word for word, but that was the general gist of it ;-)

I've thought about this a lot lately. In the litters I've had there have been some big pups, not at birth but as they've grown. We're a medium sized, pastoral breed - in my opinion the only one that'll do :-D - and I know genetics is playing a part in this as I know my dog's lines extremely well, and I know some of the individual dogs 3+ generations back very well. The size of the pups isn't a problem, and hasn't been a problem (they're not growing overly/dangerously fast or big - they are doing just what genetics dictates to them, and there's no way of stopping that), however, I can't help wondering about the puppy food.

So far I've used AG and F4D. With my last litter I tried Burns (see, I was thinking about the higher puppy food content even then), but sadly had to give up on that as I couldn't get the pups to produce firm, or firmish, poos ... not even close :-( So returned to what I knew ... AG and F4D.

I understand nutrition, I understand the role of proteins, fats, carbs in our bodies, and their roles within dogs. I also understand that dogs originally evolved to be mainly meat eaters. But, would be interested to hear comments from people who maybe were breeding before the times of the designated, pre-packed puppy foods ... must be some still around? :-O :-O

At least it's giving my brain something to work on whilst rushing Christmas card writing - today IS the last day for posting 2nd class :-O :-O ... I did have lots of protein for breakfast ... good brain food ;-)

Back in the Olden Days it was recommended that a pregnant bitch's diet should change at about 5 weeks gestation by lowering the carbohydrate (biscuit mixer) and replacing it with protein (more meat or fish), and adding a few drops of cod liver oil and a vetzyme multi-vitamin tablet. Nowadays that would be the equivalent of a complete puppy food, so easier for the breeder. :-)

>who decided puppies needed special, high protein, high oil content puppy food, when with growing children we don't rush off and buy special high protein, high oil content toddler food" - not word for word, but that was the general gist of it

Actually it's surprisingly common for toddlers of affluent, health-conscious families to suffer from malnutrition because they don't get enough fats - the family only uses skimmed or semi-skimmed milk etc.

Think it is more a case of when was it decided that adult dogs that did not work would be better off having less protein etc. than the working animal, pups need to continue with the sort of level they were getting from their mothers milk being diminished slowly as the pup gains maturity. In the wild the pup would be fed on what the parent could catch, regurgitated without digestion for the pups and later the parent will catch the prey and hand it to the litter to tear up for its self.

I agree, toddlers do require a different diet, higher in fats for a start!

the sort of level they were getting from their mothers milk being diminished slowly as the pup gains maturity. In the wild the pup would be fed on what the parent could catch, regurgitated without digestion for the pups and later the parent will catch the prey and hand it to the litter to tear up for its self

OK, so that brings me onto another thought. Nowadays I would think the majority of breeders start introducing solid foods (albeit mushed down, whether raw or kibble) at around the 3 weeks of age mark, give or take a bit depending on circumstances. I know from my own bitches, and those of my breeder/mentors that they don't contemplate regurgitating food before 5 weeks of age. So ... when did 'we' start feeding 'solids' early? Or did 'we' always?

Is it better to start feeding earlier? I know it's easier in terms of convenience and it's less strain on Mum.

I hold my hands up to knowing little about toddlers and diet, perish the thought ... I saw enough of them when I got them as teenagers :-O :-O However, I know there are lots of baby foods out there and also have a number of friends who have never fed baby food but basically toddler got what Mum and Dad ate but mushed up :-)

Nowadays I would think the majority of breeders start introducing solid foods

In the same way as we wean children early, it's convenient.

Trialist the way I look at it, today we know with science what a body needs we understand so much more about foods, proteins, vits, minerals etc, back in the day we didn't and we basically just made do.

I guess your real question is how did babies and young animals survive when they were not being given the correct amounts, well...... they did didn't they? :-D In poor countries babies are reared on cows milk/goats milk rather than baby milks or mothers. Puppies in my day were just fed adult food mashed up.

The question needs to be......... did they thrive as well though, how were their bones, their growth, their energy and intelligence? You can see what happens to a child without the correct nourishment , they are often thin and pale, or overfed on rubbish overweight and lethargic, so I guess the same is with pups? Food makes a difference to our behaviour and growth in all aspects, science helps us to realise that. With pups I guess it can be corrected much quicker so any lagging from not having the right nutrition, can be sorted within a few weeks.

Many people do start weaning too early, with babies and pups, midwives will suggest 6 months before solid foods, but I've witnessed some starting at 2 -3 months, thinking it is great! I don't know if any harm has come from weaning too early though, I've even done that myself when my dam could not feed once... the pups also thrived. So in my limited experience I don't think early weaning does any damage at all. :-)

> Nowadays I would think the majority of breeders start introducing solid foods
>
> In the same way as we wean children early, it's convenient.

I think we might be confusing introducing solid foods and weaning which are different events.
I can't see that introducing solid foods can be seen as a convenience, far from it as it usually generates a great deal of mess and dams generally quit clearing the poop up for us :) 
I think mostly we do it because the puppies are showing signs of needing it.

> I think mostly we do it because the puppies are showing signs of needing it.

Also primarily so our bitches loose less condition, and in my case to prevent them having to regurgitate, which can be a real pain, again with bitches loosing condition.

The regurgitating is usually because of the pups being hungry and mobbing, if they are nice and full they are less likely to pester so less likely for bitch to feel the need to do it, though some still do.

>I guess your real question is how did babies and young animals survive when they were not being given the correct amounts, well...... they did didn't they?

Nature designs large litters to ensure one or two young survive infancy - most are, in nature, destined to die.

I meant that it was convenient to have the pups well used to being fed the chosen puppy food by the time they go to their new home not that it was more convenient to have the pups off the bitch as soon as possible that is up to the bitch.

Agree my bitches wean their pups as they choose, except of course they do start leave me from 7 1/2 - 8 weeks.

There are two interpretaions of weaning being used, 1. means no longer completely dependent on the bitch, and the other Totally independent of the bitch for food.

1. means no longer completely dependent on the bitch, and the other Totally independent of the bitch for food.

Well I do not know the correct definition but to me weaning starts the moment a young one ingests something other than it's Mothers milk or a substitute to the moment they stop taking their Mothers milk or are able to continue their lives on food other than their Mothers milk, they are said to be weaned but they will continue to suckle if allowed as most pups will take any food they are used to that is readily available.

>But, would be interested to hear comments from people who maybe were breeding before the times of the designated, pre-packed puppy foods ... must be some still around?

You mean like in the olden times?  :-)

I always fed meat from the slaughter house, because a poodle breeder friend had dogs that looked good on it.  A small amount of biscuit mixture was added.  She told me that she always gave each dog one halibut liver oil capsule a day, so I did the same.  I even remember they were Boots own make for humans.  I had one poodle dog who would hold the rubbery capsule in his teeth, and squeeze until he punctured the capsule,  and looked as if he was in ecstasy as he enjoyed the content.  Like someone else has mentioned, the Vetzyme tablet was recommended by many.

Pups did exactly the same as they do now.  I never decide when to start weaning, the pups tell me by starting to lick mums food (I feed in the whelping box.)  I've had pups crawl to lick the food before they can stand.  Once they show interest I leave extra food and let each pup start when ready.  Bear in mind Trialist, I'm not really this old, I just did a tardis trip.

I am that old and you fed what you fed the adults but more protein less biscuit or bread either ground meat, egg, fish or cheese and they also had the best of the left overs the adults got what was left, very much as we do with children they get the best we get the rest, but then I only go back about 65 years.

Hi - I'm new on here and jumping right into an in depth conversation. I just wanted to add something to this interesting post. I have 4 children, between 13 and 3, so have done a lot of weaning in the recent past.

The reason that babies are now not meant to be weaned before 6 months is due to many people having developed allergies later in life. It is believed that foods given before this time, certain ones in particular, will cause issues later. You can't give wheat before 6 months, you can't give honey or red berries before 1 year old.

The reason that you are recommended to breast feed solely for six months is really for the same reason, as soon as you introduce something other than breast milk into the system, you no longer have what is called a 'virgin gut', it then becomes porous and that is when illnesses can occur.

I know I had thickener put in my bottle from 6 weeks old, and no, there were no adverse effects at the time. All my children have been started on sloppy foods other than milk well before the 6 month mark. None of them had any processed jars,  I made all their meals in batches and froze them. However, it remains to be seen whether they will suffer with allergies in the future I guess. I have massive trouble with my tummy, so who knows.

Babies and toddlers do need much more fat in their diet than adults do, energy being the main reason :)

Hi Pelirroja and welcome,

Thank you that is very informative, :-)

I'm very pleased that I stuck to my guns with my children.  I was pushed very hard by my mother and mother-in-law to early wean my sons, (yes, two voices in my ear, but I held my own. :-D )  along with other friends too, but I listened to my midwife and the books I had read,  it wasn't explained about the 'virgin gut' that I can remember, but I knew my babes needed breast milk rather than solid foods and touch wood looks like I do have the last laugh, my boys are very rarely ill, don't seem to come down with all these bugs and colds, they went through their school years with hardly any days off and have never had any allergies, or problems to date. I've always said it is because they were breast fed, ;-) but seems it may also be because I held off the weaning. I've always preferred to listen to science rather than 'what we did.'

So...... that is really interesting, we learn something new every day.

I feel guilty now that with one litter I early weaned my pups due to hand rearing and the utter tiredness of it all.... although they continued with milk too and years later the adults are healthy, so no adverse reactions but shows that there could have been?

When we had pups (bought at 8 weeks not bred by us) when I was young - late 60's - they were always fed adult dog biscuits/mixer eg Wilsons meal and some sort of cheap meat from the butchers van - heart or something called 'back vein'? spring to mind. They also had Stress powder added to the meals and sometimes bone meal when they were older.

On the human angle one of my daughters was breast fed and the other wasn't - the one who was breast fed has allergies but the bottle fed one doesn't so I guess there is no rhyme nor reason to these things! :-)

I suppose it also depends on how out of condition and exhausted one's prepared to allow the bitch to become.

My bitch has gone down with Eclampsia twice and i had no choice but to start weaning early. Now i feel guilty :-(

We have always known though that pups needed more and higher protein food than adults.  This is why beaten egg, cheese etc featured, as well as more meat.

>Now i feel guilty

Don't. You did exactly the right thing, unless you were prepared to let nature dictate, and you lose the pups and bitch.

> the one who was breast fed has allergies but the bottle fed one doesn't so I guess there is no rhyme nor reason to these things!

Interesting :) Both mine were breastfed - never used a bottle at all with them, they went straight onto a cup and cow's milk at 6 months (although still partially breast fed)  :) :) Neither had/has allergies and were both very healthy children. I'm more inclined to believe that what mum eats while breastfeeding is more likely to prevent allergies in the baby. My nephew's baby was (recently) breastfed and they had been told to not wean until 6 months, but, at around 3-4 months,he screamed constantly and didn't sleep etc, so they decided to introduce 'solids' and he was instantly better (he was a big baby).

>I'm more inclined to believe that what mum eats while breastfeeding is more likely to prevent allergies in the baby.

I'd agree with that. A mixed diet when pregnant means the baby can cope with a mixed diet when feeding independently. It's well-known that spices cross into the amniotic fluid so the baby is born accustomed to the flavours.

Thanks Jeangenie.
My bitch is looking awful bless her, im struggleing to get good food into her as her appetite isnt good.

I would say that none of mine are 'ill' children to be honest - and they were all breastfed, even if weaned a bit earlier. But, with the first 3 kids, you were meant to start weaning at 4 months, it had changed to 6 months by the time I had my 4th child. 

However, 3 of them have specific issues - one on meds for constant migraines, one has ADHD and another on constant meds for constant UTI's for 3 years with no rhyme or reason. Sometimes you can do everything within your power, and still things crop up. But my only son (with ADHD) hasn't had antibiotics for an illness/infection since he was 11 months old, he is now 11.5. He hasn't even had a temperature since then either - so very healthy :)

I'm a trained Doula (birth partner) and also give breast feeding support to mums, so this is a very interesting topic for me :)

Hope your bitch improves Claire

Wishing your girl all the best Claire 41, have you tried scrambled egg with goats milk or mince meat rolled into balls and hand fed? Hope she is well soon. xx

Thank you Carrington, I've tried every trick in the book  (except scrambled egg ; so ill try that ) just about to cook some mince (she won't touch raw)  I've been using wainwrights puppy trays (like nature diet) not her normal food but she's eating it sio I have just gone along with it.  I can't think straight at the moment I'm just taking it day by day .  The gruel rerecipe is keeping us going .

Mine all loved goat's milk and my bernese was getting a tin of tesco creamed rice at suppertime when we first got her which she absolutely loved.

ahhhh rice pudding, another one i'd forgotten about. Will pick some up, thank you :)

Phew, a return to 4-legged talk ... back in my comfort zone :-)

Well, I started breeding cats before any type of "kitten food" was available! 
The cat breeders' mainstay was chicken - boiled or roasted, usually in conjunction with canned food. But I didn't buy the one that 9 out of 10 cats are said to prefer as it contained vegetable derivatives which I found my first girl couldn't tolerate, so it had to be Kattomeat or Felix, both of which were just meat, nothing else.

If mum was losing condition while nursing, you'd boil up the chicken with some rice. Later when the kittens were about 10+ weeks old and absolutely bombing around the house 24/7 (I had a very athletic breed with large litters!) I would roast the chicken instead as they needed the extra fat for energy.

It used to be a bit of a standing joke that if you ever visited a breeder's home, you'd always be offered chicken sandwiches! (No idea what you'd get if you were veggie!).

Then came in Whiskas kitten food but because of the above I couldn't feed that either except when the kittens were fully weaned and Mum was out of the room. Next development was Iams, which did revolutionise things to a better advantage but I still refused to rely solely on it for kittens, instead providing chicken, fish, cooked beef, different canned & dried foods to avoid them becoming too selective.

I would feed raw now, as I've seen how much better the kittens are on it and how the lactating mums tend to keep in better condition, but also add some commercial foods for the reasons above.

I seem to remember in the 'old' days using  weetabix and Ideal Evaporated milk (it was like Carnation) for puppies, and giving mum SA37 with her Winalot biscuit, chicken and Tripe.

Remember when I was little the pups would get porridge (with evaporated milk and a raw egg whisked in) then scrambled eggs for lunch (full cream milk) then mince and biscuit for dinner then farleys rusks for supper.  Also remember vetzyme and stress powder (and  what a weird smell it had). 

Don't remember what the bitches had but the pups always seemed healthy as far as I can recall - at times they certainly ate better than us kids did!