Generally I'm all for not neutering a dog, as there can be more disadvantages than advantages in doing it and for pack hierarchy reasons it is a big no, no IMO as it generally does not work.

You need the professional eye on the pack and the continued health assessments first, but after reading this thread further and learning that there are a lot of un-spayed bitches around your area running wild, and yes a dog can pick up that scent for miles, I'm going to confuse you even more now, as I am wondering if in the long run for this reason alone it may be best to have him neutered, dogs can get extremely het up, anxious, and overwhelmed picking up the scent of bitches in season, along with them becoming master escape artists to get to the bitches.

If I were in your situation and my dog were not for show, breeding and had a solid personality (in question at present with yours) I would neuter to save my dog going bananas with temptations driving him crazy that he can't get at. The bitches no doubt will also do their utmost to find any dog available too.

However, I would hold off any neutering plans until he is 2 years of age and fully developed, so if you can just hold on until then.

Just as a side note. I've never, ever locked a dog away from my company, I absolutely do not agree with you keeping him away from you for fear of upsetting the packs vibes and causing jealousy, if anything he is going to become more and more anxious, I would knock that on the head right now. Spread your time between the dogs and treat them all the same unless a reputable behaviourist once studying the pack tells you differently, just keep the JR away from the Lab. :-)

And fingers crossed that there is no underlying medical reason for this.

well after all thi info overload, i decided, to keep him on his own and the other three (lab rescue, JR and lab mix) together, he is allowed into our lounge with us for short but frequent times during the day and after we have eaten dinner at night, then he goes out as we go to bed, believe it or not hes actually a MUCH HAPPIER DOG!!!! it was suggested before that he may prefer our company more then the other dogs and even though its only his second day of this new routine, he has adjusted SO well and really seems much happier. he still gaurds the house just from a different side of the yard and goes out at night in a very relaxed state, stopped whining, no shouting or irritation involved( im not that way inclined) and when we get up in the morning, he is very happy but i dont allow this to escalate into over excitement, he seems very happy.

i can whole heartedly say the stress is starting to lift slightly. im going to start obidience and adult dog classes in the new year for sure. maybe some things really do just happen for a reason. he hasnt thrown up or anything unusual, eats VERY WELL (whats new:D).

just feeling alot happier for him and hopefully tonight i can get some rest. will leave the tv on for him tonight just for extra comfort even though he coped great last night (being the first night on his own) the door and security gate are left open all day and he doesnt put a paw into the house unless invited which is all i ask of him, just a bit of respect, not just barging in even after hes been allowed in before. hes sooo good. love this dog so much !!

will take it day by day... the other 3 dogs thrive on each other where as roley has always chosen us over the dogs where he could.

thanks you for all your help everyone ill keep you all posted with his progress

It will certainly reduce current stress factors for all of you.

Haven't read all of the replies so sorry if this has been said before. I had this situation with two of my setters (both entire). It began when my daughter was stroking Brodie and Callan came past - Brodie attacked Callan and wouldn't give it up. Then a few months later i had another fight from them - I didn't see what caused it. After that if Brodie so much as growled at Callan Callan attacked him and wouldn't back down (neither did Brodie until he was old). It only happened occassionally but it was horrid. Then Brodie died and after a few weeks the whole atmosphere in my pack went "and relax". To anyone who didn't know they would have thought that Callan was the issue BUT the fact of the matter was that Brodie initiated the original issue and Callan became defensively aggressive towards him. By the way my other 2 entire male dogs did not join in they were just not relaxed and they relaxed once the situation resolved - sadly that was my poor old boy going. It sounds to me that your problem is you JR.

Vets in the UK think just as misguidedly as vets in the US and UK, I'm sure (at least, many of them!).  The advice you're getting here is from very doggy-people - people who work, show, compete and breed their dogs.  Plus a behaviourist or two and a trainer or two (myself included).  Put together, the level of knowledge of canine behaviour is far greater than that of almost all vets - who receive very little training in canine behaviour and are physiological experts.  Would you go to your GP for psychotherapy?  Nope.  That is the equivalent of expecting your vet to be able to treat a behavioural issue.

>He already started generalising as when i brought him home this afternoon, a lady with 2 old JRT who were minding there own business , he began growling at.

Again, I'd suggest a period of many days - even a week - without him even seeing another dog, and having no contact with them.  You being available and nearby and him feeling secure and in a regular routine.  You can use that time to research options and think.  There is nothing urgent that needs doing this second, so let things settle and use it as thinking time to plan forwards and consider all the info you say you're feeling overloaded by.

>he can see us through the sliding door and he is whining alot, i feel terrible as i dont want him to come in the house while he is whining as then he may think this is how it works all the time to get my way, but he is very attached to me so i dont know if bringing him in for a bit will help ease him into being on is own or if im making a mistake and its going to cause problems when we go away etc.

I think problems when you go away are very very low on your agenda at the moment.  Ensuring you can keep this dog is top priority, since he doesn't stand much of a chance of a good life if you rehome him with dog aggression.  He may even end up being PTS.  So worrying about whether letting him indoors is good in terms of his future expectations just doesn't come into the picture here.  AS I said, he needs to feel secure.  You are his main attachment figure, and contact with you is going to help him feel secure.  If he is shut outdoors, whining and away from you, just how are you helping him to feel secure and settled??

Haven't read all of the replies so sorry if this has been said before. I had this situation with two of my setters (both entire). It began when my daughter was stroking Brodie and Callan came past - Brodie attacked Callan and wouldn't give it up. Then a few months later i had another fight from them - I didn't see what caused it. After that if Brodie so much as growled at Callan Callan attacked him and wouldn't back down (neither did Brodie until he was old). It only happened occassionally but it was horrid. Then Brodie died and after a few weeks the whole atmosphere in my pack went "and relax". To anyone who didn't know they would have thought that Callan was the issue BUT the fact of the matter was that Brodie initiated the original issue and Callan became defensively aggressive towards him. By the way my other 2 entire male dogs did not join in they were just not relaxed and they relaxed once the situation resolved - sadly that was my poor old boy going. It sounds to me that your problem is your JR.

Hi to you and I sympathise with your predicament and the conflicting advise re castration. I would definitely have it done as it will not make things worse and could improve the situation. I also think that what others have said is right: too many males will not always live harmoniously together (especially if a JRT is one of them) and that things could get worse as they all begin to get tetchy with each other. I know you don't want to hear this but I think you will have to rehome Rolo. It is not a nice situation that you are in.

> as it will not make things worse and could improve the situation.

There is no way you can say that, in many cases it can make thigns worse by makign an under confident afraid dog more so.

The other dogs are neutered, yet it isn't stopping the JRT from instigating fights.  It may be something to be considered once he is fully mature and thisa issue is resolved, because of the stray situation, but not at this point.

yes i totally agree with you. and appreciate your advice.

i wont ever give one of our dogs away or re home them unless i had done absolutely everything i could to try keep them with me and it still wasnt helping and so far they are all very happy with the new adjustment. My mom has a female JR as well as 7 other dogs and she picks fights with the Rotti of all the dogs there!!! these JR really ARE TERRORS!!! Rolo im pretty sure isnt the problem at this point, im convinced its the russel as this morning he had a full on go at my lab mix who he usually backs away from.... thank goodness our lab mis ignore this and walks away and lays down leaving a good distance away.

i love my russel but he really does test my patience. full of rubbish at the best of times.

time to let rolo in for some tv;) hes such a honey

i do want to ask what everyone keeps referring to as an unconfident and fearful dog because i dont consider any of our dogs to be either. rolo is always the first to run up to see what a strange sound is, hes definitly the one gaurding our house and always walks around at night almost patrolling, tail up ad straight. he come for drives on the farm occasionally. swims all the time.

i dunno, i just dont get that from him, i really do think the russel just took on a dog who at this time in his life isnt going to take anymore crap. as well as all these strays ALL OVER THE PLACE!! as it is the compound at the bottom of our plot has a heap of new puppies who will in 8 months time or as soon as they are old enough have puppies of their own! really sadens me, these poor dogs suffer so much. the locals poach on our farm with snares and due to the strays having to hunt for food often get trapped in these make shift snares and die a terrible death, my bf and his father have often had to end animals suffering when they have come across such things:(:(:( i cant handle it. its a serious problem here.  its no suprise hes going crazy from these pheramones. POOR BOY:(  for trigger the russel its just about boxing with the strongest male im sure

I just wanted to add that although there is a lot of knowledge on this board, none of us should be advising you in absolute terms because none of us has seen your pack first hand and had the opportunity to do a detailed assessment. This is not to say discard everything you read here, but please do get an expert in at some point. We can offer thoughts from a distance, but none of us can give you advice with real certainty. As I said, no properly qualified behaviourist would be telling you what to do without first seeing your dogs.

As Brainless said, there are things to be considered.

I might be wrong, but probably the chances of finding the right sort of canine behaviourist in rural South Africa are very slim and online advice maybe perhaps all that this person has available.  Certainly better than getting the wrong sort of behaviourist in...

hahaha thats very thoughtful but we arnt "rural" we just have rural villages illegally built up in our agricultural areas. and south africa as a whole doesnt have easy access to brilliant behaviourists if there are one or two they will probably be out of reach for me and will have to answer my questions online too.

For me im just very wary as people really do claim to be professionals when it comes to animals here and there have been many articals on people in SA that after seeing the dogs in the owners homes have insisted on removing them for a period of time to work with them away from their familiar environment and ended up never getting their dogs back as those "professionals'' are exporting them overseas for dog fighting. also had articals on people taking the dogs away for the same reasons and the dog showing even worse aggression or have developed new problems.

im definitly going to get someone in, im just very cautious.

i do want to ask what everyone keeps referring to as an unconfident and fearful dog because i dont consider any of our dogs to be either. rolo is always the first to run up to see what a strange sound is, hes definitely the one guarding our house and always walks around at night almost patrolling, tail up ad straight. he come for drives on the farm occasionally. swims all the time.

Deciding whether the removal of testosterone should be done, is nothing to do with any of the things you describe above, a dog can be confident with humans and his territory and may not flinch if a gun goes off, may be happy and social and look and in fact be extremely confident......... it's how he is around other dogs! ;-)

If a dog is submissive around others (apart from towards a true alpha) it should not be castrated, as testosterone gives a dog it's backbone (for a better phrase) take it away and the dog may well become aggressive through fear. Also in turn if a dog is aggressive around other dogs it can be because it is suffering from fear aggression already as an adolescent one of the most important things is to keep your dog safe from fights as it imprints it's impression of other dogs. Many adolescents and pups have grown up dog aggressive due to being caught up in dog fights. Removing testosterone due to these situations makes a dog even worse, with re-socialisation and all hormones intact, a dog can be re-moulded, remove it's 'backbone' and it is near impossible.

It is why it is important to work out what is causing aggression, dogs are aggressive for so many reasons, territory, resource guarding, fear, breeding rights, temperament issues, missed body language...... and of cause hierarchy issues, so many reasons... castrate for the wrong reason and your dog will become 100 times worse.

I can't tell you how many dogs I've met castrated at 6 months who are now fear aggressive and that is down to the vet not understanding how a dog matures and how it needs that testosterone to build his character, it should not be considered until full maturity. Please!

If there is no medical reason, most of us who have a lot of experience with dogs can pinpoint the cause here, but.... as we keep saying we are not there to know for sure that this is not fear aggression which will be transfered to other dogs, or a heirarchy issue, or a problem with just one dog.

Rolo needs full maturity before anything should be decided yet.

Just keep doing what you are doing for now, all the dogs seem happier and your preventing fights, whether things will settle is unknown, as for the bitches I really feel for you it's a huge problem for you all, just make sure your dogs can not get out and also get caught in one of those traps.

And once his character at maturity is properly assessed if all is well, as I said due to those bitches I would castrate, but first you need to make sure he is not fear aggressive. :-)

> i do want to ask what everyone keeps referring to as an unconfident and fearful dog because i dont consider any of our dogs to be either.

What we are mainly refering to socially, in his canine interactions, he is at the stage where many young males (in many species) are at their least unconfident and fearful, with only their hormones to give them confidence, until they mature.

As they reach puberty puppy license will have gone, and older dogs will be less tolerant causing stress etc.

He is in a very artificial male grouping, and the only entire. t he JRT is the ewquivalent to a littermate (they are so close in age) with who it would be natural to compete, but they are mismatched for size and strength though perhaps equal in social standign hence the fighting. 

Rolo will be 2 years old in april 2013

Might sound a bit odd, but would you be able to video your dogs at all?

I'm just trying to think of ways we can help, if you can't get someone with the right knowledge in person to see them - on video (if it's good quality of course) we might be able to see some body language going on, little gestures, stress, that sort of thing.

Nikita,

Not odd  at all, it is exactly what a good behaviourist would ask for if they really cannot get to the person on the ground. Skyping is also an option.

> Rolo will be 2 years old in april 2013

That is still an adolescent especially for larger breeds.  My breed are very much puppies until 2 years, I have a very adolescent 22 month old bitch.  Full social maturity is not usually reached until 3 or 4 years.

> Not odd  at all, it is exactly what a good behaviourist would ask for if they really cannot get to the person on the ground.

Good to know I'm doing my job right then ;-)  It's just not a situation I come across as my work is all local, and I imagine some people would think it quite odd - heck, clicker training is quite odd to a lot of people!

Heidzzn, I#ve just seen this post and for what it's worth I offer my commiserations. I have three entire dogs aged 5 )the pack leader), 4 3/4 (quite a submissive dog who belongs to a breeder friend--he stays here because she keeps bitches, and he's not as well socialised as my other two) and 3 1/2 who were the very best of friends, but that has changed, I think by bringing a puppy bitch into the household and by putting them on a different diet.

It turned in the blink of an eye in the kitchen--the dogs were waiting to be fed, a crumb rolled off the counter and the middle one jumped on the oldest boy. I separated them without too much trouble and all was well for three weeks or so and then they had another barney--I can't even say what triggered it but again there was no warning. Of course I separated them, and for a while everything was manageable but the third and last episode was the worst. I've had to take my oldest dog to have a puncture wound to his shoulder cleaned and stitched and he's been crate rested for the past 10 days. In the meantime I've had to devise a routine of moving dogs where my oldest boy is not loose with either of the other two. He barks constantly if I leave the room with the other dogs and this evening I've had my neighbour banging on the door to complain (I don't blame her at all). It's really stressful.

The saving grace is that they are fine on a walk, on or off lead, but I worry that if I'm not careful things could deteriorate. So my days are spent trying to work out routines that are safe, but none are ideal. Once my oldest boy has healed up properly maybe we can start again.

When you say he lives with you because your friend keeps bitches, why is that - is it the seasons that are the problem?  I'm just curious as to why you decided to bring a bitch puppy in when he's with you because he can't live with bitches at home.  I'd have expected problems in that situation.

I won't bring a puppy in at all here, but especially not a bitch because I know my two neutered boys would end up at each other's throats over her as soon as she matured.

Hi Nikita--he lives with me because it's the breeder who won't run her dogs on past 10 months, she rehomes them as pets without papers (I show him with her permission under her name)--he gets on absolutely fine with bitches, and the younger dog. His breeder just doesn't want the expense of boarding her dogs out when her 6 bitches come into season...:-).

I suppose the easy route out would be to hand her her dog back, but he has been with me since he was 10 months old, he's lived with me for 4 years and this is his home.

My previous posts earlier this year about bringing a bitch in and managing mixed households will show that I did consider all the angles and on the basis of other CD contributors' experience and suggestions I thought we would manage it. As it turns out it is not problem free by a long chalk, but having seen what can happen I am putting in place separation routines and deterrents for all the dogs. There is no one at home to accidentally leave gates or crates open when they need to be separated and the dogs are learning the new routines and accept them. If I didn't believe I could still offer them a good quality of life and safety I wouldn't risk any of it.

I'm really pleased that you are working your way through this JAY15, just had a quick look to find your thread about introducing a bitch into a house with 3 entire males and on a quick glance can't find it, (but I'm too lazy to read them all :-D )  I just can't imagine who said that would be ok and not cause niggles and heiarchy issues?

Of course the boys may have had issues anyway eventually but a bitch being introduced if all are un-neutered, whooo........ risky is all I can say.

Don't envy you at all however, the pack may well settle anyway, but the bitch will cause it to question itself and juggle around, IME having un-neutered mixes of dogs works best when there is already a very strong alpha bitch there first to keep everyone in line.

Hoping the boys will settle. x

> Hi Nikita--he lives with me because it's the breeder who won't run her dogs on past 10 months, she rehomes them as pets without papers (I show him with her permission under her name)--he gets on absolutely fine with bitches, and the younger dog. His breeder just doesn't want the expense of boarding her dogs out when her 6 bitches come into season...:-).

Ahhh I see.  I wasn't meaning to criticise, apologies if it came across that way, I was just curious as it read like he couldn't live with bitches at all :-)

ETA or rather, I read it that way - that whole internet interpretation minefield!

LOL Nikita, perfectly understandable conclusion to draw!

Hi jay15

yes it hasnt been easy at all, things have definitly settled down alot!!

rolo is very quiet and settled lately,  which im sooo thankful for!!  i have decided to go ahead with the castration and hes got a few days left with till his stitches come out, he hasnt even worried about going to the fence to look for the other dogs and they the same.  been quietly thinking to myself that at some point, possibly getting him a companion (female) but its just a thought for now. its a huge responsibility and i would definitly get a pup, FROM A BREEDER THIS TIME!!!! but yes, alot has to be considered as i dont want our other three dogs to become all uptight having a female around. THATS THE LAST THING I NEED TO HAPPEN!!!

Rolo is an all round MUCH MUCH happier boy! i cant believe it! hes so playful and happy i can just see it in his disposition... definitly made the right choice:)

The JRT has been recieving some seriously strict disciplin too!! which was in desperate need, clearly whats considered the norm of disciplin just doesnt cut it with the little terrors but hes much more respectful.(thinks twice;)

would bringing a female pup into the picture upset the balance with our dogs even though she would be rolos companion and seperate from the other dogs.(just thinking for the future)

The female hormone inj. will have altered him and taken the male hormone level down a few notches.

I haven't been in this situation to know if a bitch will fit in or not but it will mean juggling 5 dogs that can't all be left together.

yes i am extremely aware of this, but thanks anyway. takes a month for the injection to have had any effect as the testosterone decreases( suppose to come into effect as the testosterone diminishes a bit) so i was told by the vet