Hi everyone

Im new to the site and am really in desperate need of help:( I have a Male chocolate lab, he is 1yr and 7 months old, still intact and the kindest dog i know.  2 days ago he viciously attacked his pack mate (jack russel, male, neutered, 2yrs) it was the most traumatising thing i have yet experienced and definitly the last thing myself or my boyfriend ever expected to happen.

We have 4 dogs all males and have grown up together. Riley a rescue lab ( he was the only dog we didnt aquire from a young pup but he was only 5 months old the others we have had from 8 weeks), mojo a lab mix possibley shepard lab not too sure but a real gentlemen and trigger the jackrussel all males but rolo (chocolate lab has not been fixed) Rolo goes into the vet for neutering tomorrow.

as a puppy rolo was extremely submissive to trigger(JR) but they were the best of friends, played all day and were attached at the hip. as they both got older the JR began bullying rolo by jumping on him and biting his neck and legs and back very viciously too but i did correct that, but being a JR didnt care too much what i thought or said although he does listen he tends to block out the important things.  Rolo did take alot longer to develop and grow then riley and mojo but he never lost his gentle kind and focused nature. All our dogs would swim together chase balls and frizzbees together etc and generally got on better then i could ever have asked for, until about 3 weeks ago when our lab rolo started defending his toys from the JR only by growling  no food aggression or anything with any of the dogs and i watch them eat every night to ensure no swoping of bowls or intimidating, never had any issues though. 

3 weeks ago i was brushing the lab mix on our lawn and rolo had put his ball down behind me to throw it for him, but i was busy so he does what he always does and just lay down waiting patientlly for me to finish (very fixed and focused on me and his ball, the JR walked between me and the ball to come sit near me i assume and all hell broke loose! rolo attacked trigger right into my back with no warning pushing me over and with a loud growling tone and a thrown shoe they broke it up. the JR had lot of bruising on his throat.

Our dogs have always got on well, thats never been an issue other then our JR and his constant attitude.  rolo has been standing his ground towards the JR and making him walk away through growls and barks, which i thought wasnt great but maybe its time he stood his ground to all the biting and intimidating from the JR.  then the terrible happened, 2 days ago i told my boyfriend i was going outside to play with the dogs (thow the balls etc) as we had been in town all morning. i walked out the front door around our van and the choco lab rolo and the JR Trigger just went for eachother no warning that i heard as i wasnt looking at them while i was walking, no ball around or toy and no food, i tried pulling rolo off of trigger as he was ontop of him and had him by the throat again i hit him as i couldnt pick him up or pull him off, i was hysterical screaming and yelling brought my boyfriend out to help, i had thrown a bucket of water on them in hopes to get them apart, they didnt even notice eventually we managed to get them apart, when the JR came after him again from under the van, grabbing his leg and violently shaking it, causing lacerations, again we had to get them apart buy literally tearing the JR out of his jaws.

my boyfriend went back outside after checking the JR over for punctures (luckily none on either dog) to ensure the tension was gone, after a few stares and my boyfriend stopping the fixating it seemed all was fine. he said to me it may be when i go outside that triggers their jealousy, so he said while he is home and not at work i must go outside, so i did, things seemed fine until rolo lay down ont he lawn and the JR came out of the shrubs and attacked him again this time rolo was not going to let go and we saw it, we tried pulling them apart hitting them, opening rolos jaws, i put my finger in his backside and absolutely nothing helped he didnt even flinch, i really thought today our JR is going to be killed in front of us:(:(:(:( somehow rolo lost his grip and my boyfriend pulled th JR off holding him up and by his scruff, rolo bowled me over jumping up against my boyfriend to get to the JR. my boyfriend kneed him off but he didnt stop, the next moment the JR got free from his grip and went straight back for rolo, i kicked him away but he dodged me and they latched onto eachother AGAIN, this time riely the rescue got hold of trigger too, riley lost a back leg a year and a half ago so he lost his balance and falling over he released his brip but rolo was still on him by this time trigger was hardley breathing and i smacked rolo until he let go. somehow he did and we ripped the JR away, i sat on rolo so he couldnt move again and we put the JR in the house. i made the lab lay head on the ground on his side and not MOVE for a while before going back inside.

everyone including the dogs were finished!!! we were injured in the process with lacerations, no punctures and bruising, all my nails had lifted and bled due to pulling on rolo(they didnt have collars on) and my hands were blue from gripping so tightly. Trigger has a very larger puncture to his throat, lacerations and is extremely bruised. he is home from the vet, has been inside while we divide the yard and electrified it so he doesnt dig under the fence, rolo paces up and down the fence growling, the look on his face when he sees trigger is intent on finishing the job. the lab mix is with trigger now and is very unhappy as the 3 big dogs are all very close but rolo has begun showing signs that concern me when he is around mo the lab mix. he is submissive in that he leopard crawls under mo but keeps trying to lick him in his mouth which mo doesnt like, he makes alot of noise to show he doesnt enjoy it but never ever gets aggressive, however while rolo is leopard crawling, licking and ears back, he makes a kind of growling deep sound which worries me that it could escalate into a fight, which is the last thing i want or need. mo really never interferes or fights or any bad behaviour.

over the past 4 months rolo has been nudging riley  (the rescue) constantly and jumping backwards and bending down in a playful way then standing over him encouraging him to lick his privates. and this behaviour is very very obsessive and i wonder if its due to him being intact and frustrated.

is this normal ''teenage behaviour'', will neutering reduce the frustration he seems to be having and so reduce his aggression and intolerance for the JR. the JR is definitly going to catch a huge wake up call regarding his attitude, at this point i feel like we will have to keep him seperate on his own permenantly (the JR)

Rolo is very good with the other dogs and people, hes a lovely dog, this is just so worrying and im not sleeping as my dogs are my life and im at a loss at this point. rolo stays, gives paw, lays down and sits on command, hes very clever and i just need any advice or help if anyone has any for me.

look forward to hearing from you all.

It would be possible to make all kinds of observations and suggestions at a distance, but in all honesty I think you should get a behaviourist in who can look at the pack dynamics properly and sort out what to do.

On the surface it sounds as though Rolo has been pushed beyond all endurance by the JR. JR's were bred not ever to back down, even on pain of death, so you may have one that has those traits to the max. What you don't want is Rolo's experiences to transfer to the other dogs. I would also want to know if the JR had ever been a problem before Rolo came on the scene? If not you may also need to consider whether Rolo has been doing something to push the JR's buttons, but that you have not noticed or picked up on? Anyhow, I think it needs someone actually in your home to go through everything first hand and help you sort out what to do next.

As for neutering Rolo, yes this might be the right thing to do but I just wonder if now is the right time to do it? Additionally, depending on how you analyse what is going on between the dogs, castration may not make a difference, or there's an outside chance things may get worse. It is so hard to say. It all depends on what the roots of the fighting is. Make sure that the JR has a health check, as well as Rolo.

Again, I would really seek some expert advice before doing anything, other than keeping Rolo and the JR completely separate for now.

Rolo is of an age now where he is probably elevating himself to the more alpha position, dogs push their luck, test the water and are either accepted or not.

Rolo and your JR are at odds here neither backing down or giving in. JR's don't care that a dog is bigger or stronger they are feisty and headstrong, your lab isn't taking it, you need to keep them separate as practically anything may kick them off and your right as neither is backing down there is only one way it will go.

You just don't know until all dogs are mature whether there will be friction or not, best friends can become new enemies at the drop of a hat.

Neutering is no guarantee that Rolo will then suddenly not feel the need to stand his ground, I've never noticed much difference to roles in a pack once neutering has occurred myself, however heightened testosterone may be encouraging him to elevate which may then dissipate, trouble is you don't know if it is a natural character elevation which won't change with neutering or a testosterone thing.

The best behaviourist in the world, won't change the natural assertion of a packs roles.

As none of us are there to see how your pack has developed and notice the interactions it is almost impossible to say on a forum who is the alpha, who is pushing their luck and whether it is a 'forever' problem or one which will work out.

Removing testosterone can in fact cause aggression if a dog is not confident. It may be worth asking your vet to try Suprelorin which is a temporary solution to neutering to see if it makes any difference to Rolo and your JR my guess is it probably won't.

The best and safest solution is to separate and take it in turns with the two dogs to mix with the others and family, these two could be at it for another 2 years before things settle if they ever do.

Sorry this has happened, my advice is to never leave them alone together and keep them separate in the home, they may well be ok on walks, but that will have to be tried and tested too.

It may be just Rolo deciding he has had enough of being bullied by the JRT and jumping in first, he is at an age where his hormones will be raging and any in season female in the vicinity will confuse and upset him too.

I have never had a male dog neutered nor have my parents,never felt the need and reading about how it can change dogs and rarely for the better I am glad.

If you take away Rolo's hormones is that going to make things worse because he won't have the oomf to keep the JRT in place and will be bullied again. There is a chemical castration inj that can be tried to see what happens when the hormones are supressed but it wears off which is not possible after surgical castration, if the desired behaviour results from the injection then you can go on and go the whole hog, if things don't change then you need to work on training the dogs better especially the JRT who is ignoring any instructions by you and got away with it.

Good Luck sorting things out.

Is he allowed his "own" toys.  It is nice that dogs share nicely but just like us they have a right to have things which they regard as their own.  If he is used to having to put up with being faorced by the other dogs to give up his toys he may just be sick of it.

Also with regard to pack order I initially tried to make sure my beagle was treated as top dog as she was there first and as the oldest.  This did not work terribly well and led to her being quite stressed and worried about being top dog, and as my puppy got to maturity she got very in to resource guarding and quite nasty with her.  I stopped trying to force my idea of a pecking order on them and they are both much happier, Lola is not top dog but she likes it that way.  Not saying I put up with bullying/food stealing etc but I don't keep trying to enforce Lola as first to do anything etc.

Dogs do find their own pecking order but it doesn't take much to mess things up and it isn't always possible to spot what caused it.

thank you so much for all your swift replies.

a few minutes ago i wanted to put mo, the lab mix back with rolo and riley who there hasnt been an issue with and rolo lunged out his kennel, while our security gate was still closed thank goodness, growling and very unhappy, mo didnt even notice, which helps i guess as he doesnt escalate rolos already aggressive tantrums, the problem now is this: is rolo now developing aggression with our other dog for no reason except that he knows he defeated trigger. 

im thinking of getting a behaviourist but im so sceptical with people claiming to be dog behaviourists ill ask my vet maybe and see what or whome he suggests.

this really has turned, what used to be a peaceful happy home, into a nightmare, im paranoid 24/7 and am fearful to even attempt going outside should mo go back with rolo, and honestly our lives have been turned upside down by this.

trigger i definitly think has been the root of all of this aas much as i love and care for him, he really has a VERY LARGE ATTITUDE. Riley the rescue has a very annoying habit of making a repremand into a game but 'talking' to us and rolling around and pushing his legs on us(very hyperactive dog) and seeing as rolo stand over him all the time and nudges him as mentioned before, could it be that riley is teaching rolo that our disciplin is a joke.

with that said rolo really does listen when repremanded, just clearly not when he feels trigger or as of now mo, may be threatening his position as dominant male? if so, is he going to attack all our dogs to find his place?

i really really hope thats not the case.

very very worried

I agree. Think pack dynamics can shift according to what is going on, context etc.. I just hesitate to give firm advice from a distance as there could be elements that the owner is missing. I wouldn't rush to castrate; I would keep the lab and JRT completely separate. I would seek expert advice.

I've just seen your last post. It sounds to me as though you need to keep Rolo under very close supervision, possibly separate him from all the other dogs and I think he needs a vet check too.

Yes, lots of people claim to be behaviourists without the qualifications or the experience...you need both. I'm not clear where you live? If in the UK look for APBC or UKRCB and they need to have had lots of experience dealing with pack dynamics.

By the way, I don't think Riley is having a game, I think he is probably trying to pacify you by acting silly and puppyish when you tell him off. I may have this wrong but it sounds like you have alpha rolled Rolo? If I have this right, please be careful about doing this kind of thing as it could backfire badly, if I'm wrong, apologies. For now you are best to avoid, avoid, avoid situations that could trigger a fight and yes, that will be hard to manage. Again, I think you need expert help with this.

btw regard the previous reply, i brought mo through the house to the front of the yard where rolo and riley have been for the day, before i opened the gate i waited to make sure rolo wasnt surprsed by mo and accidently set mo up for a fight. (thats how pathetic this all is)

my poor dogs:(

What about keeping Rolo on a "houseline" attached to you so as soon as he makes a lunge at one of the dogs you have control and break his concentration and bring it back to you, don't let the others taunt him though.

in keeping them seperate, what do i do if rolo begins to become depressed being on his own. trigger mo and riley have been put together as mo and riley are very close and we have alot of storms this time of year and mo looks to riley for comfort instead of trying to get into the house. so as of now those three are very calm and happy but poor rolo is alone on the other side of the house.

im feeling so torn emotionally, i know i shouldnt think this way but i feel as though im doing rolo an injustice by making him live alone on one side of the house while the other 3 dogs have company, because trigger gives attitude to riley and mo but they either turn it into a game (riley) or ignore it and not even care (mo)

sorry alpha rolled rolo? im not sure what you mean by this?

do you mean ive made it seem like hes the alpha dog or do you mean ive actually made him think he is by my actions?

maybe protecting him  because trigger has daily arguements with riley where they play at first and then they start snapping in eachothers face and whining while doing so, at this time trigger will lunge forward at rileu and bite his lips and face and riley retaliates except they both stop immediatly when we shout at them and send them away from eachother. trigger has also always run up mo out of nowwhere and snapped in his face looking up at him and walking at his shoulders as mo walks all stiff tailed and ears pricked occasionally nipping at his shoulders, i honestly dont think many dogs would tolerate that

i live in south africa

Okay.

By alpha roll I mean you held Rolo down, holding his head down until he relaxed. I understand that you had to step in to control the situation but this kind of method can cause problems down the line. Sorry you sat on Rolo but held Riley down. I understand that in thick of things you had to take control it's just that when you get really physical with a dog you put yourself at risk too- obvious, I know.

The more you describe the more it sounds like their are all kinds of tensions going on between the dogs and you need clear advice on the ground- this is not a criticism of you, just an observation. We are so far removed from what is going on that I really think you need someone in situ. I would speak to your vet about a behaviourist in you area.

Sorry to say it... but I think rehoming either Rolo or Trigger - or both - to only-dog homes, is the best solution.  Dogs need human company more than other-dog company, and I can't see a situation where one or two dogs are always left out and excluded as being a good one.

From your description, this whole situation began with resource-guarding issues over toys and objects and then generalised to be total hatred of the other dog.  Once you have one dog excluded, watching you, his beloved owner, interact with the other (hated) dog, the situation is only going to get worse:  Dogs can resource-guard people as well as objects, and can be jealous of the attention they see another dog getting.  (As anyone knows, who has had one dog come over and stick its head in the way when you are giving fuss to another!).  If you shut one dog away behind a fence or somewhere, and he can see you interacting with another dog, that is only going to foster feelings of jealousy and resentment against the hated dog.

A life time of keeping them separate and supervision, combined with a lot of deprivation of human contact (because you have to share yourself around all, and can't be with all at once) is just no life at all.  Not to mention the stress, to you, of worrying when this is going to happen again.

As someone says above, JRs are bred never to back down, even to the death.  Furthermore, they are usually 'trigger-happy' and will respond quickly and with little thought, to a perceived threat.  They are bred to dispatch vermin - which can fight back quite ferociously.  There are some breeds I'd never recommend live in all-male households, including some of the terrier breeds with working instincts.

Now the problem is so extreme and so intense, neutering may well have no effect - and could make things worse.  You have 2 dogs which have taken an extreme hatred to each other - with a lot of behavioural work you could perhaps reach the point whereby you could walk them on lead near each other and have them not react to each other - but all that work, and you're talking NEVER being left alone together off lead...

It sounds like Rolo, being the only entire male, (I think?) wants to be top dog.  He's not having any more of the challenges from Trigger and the crap he's put up with over the years, now he's reached maturity.  Trigger, if he were a wise dog or any other breed, would accept this and have backed off long ago.  For his own (perhaps terrier-based) reasons, despite the fact he's neutered, he isn't.  This leaves Rolo with little choice...

With regard to separation, your priority now is to keep things calm and ensure another fight does not kick off resulting in more vet visits or worse. Make sure Rolo has quality time with you, games, obedience training, a couple of good walks a day and he should be fine for now. Dogs do bond to other dogs, but for most the bond with their humans is even more important. You are doing this to help them, so just stay calm.

Sorry, I should be clear that separation is not a long-term solution it is for now until you get the advice you need and yes, rehoming may well be on the cards but I would not want to advise this until I had seen your dogs for myself.

what you say really does sound very true as difficult as this is to swallow:( i dont know what ill do if the truth really is only to rehome one of them.:(:(:( im going to get advice from my vet as well as a behaviourist.

thank you

i hate seperating them especially seeing as they really seemed to be a happy bunch.

i cant imagine what ill do if having to rehome one of my boys is my only option:(:(:( im taking rolo to the vet tomorrow and ill get advice from him about a behaviourist

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">i hate seperating them especially seeing as they really seemed to be a happy bunch.

Separating them is the only way to keep them all safe. Don't view it as a negative - it's a positive as you are preventing a situation starting that will quickly spiral out of control and could cause death or serious injury to any of your dogs or the humans who try to separate them in the event of a fight. The dogs WILL fight again if they get the opportunity - as you have already experienced  - so separation is the only way to keep them and yourselves safe from harm.

I would get both dogs health checked as well. Especially the Lab, maybe even thyroid tests being taken.  It could be that he has just had enough of the JR now, but it is hard to knoew.

the thing is it started with the JR and in 24hrs he now wont tolerate the lab mix through our gate, he wont even look at him, when he does he growls and when i say EY he looks away and lies down avoiding him while mo, the lab mix is so happy go lucky he just wants to be friends and rolo for some reason suddenly cannot stand him, he is the perfect energy for any dog i would say, he never looks for trouble. so i cant understand all this. ill def have things tested. 

we have just put riley back with him outside and he went from morbid depressed dog (from being alone during a storm while riley kept the scardy dogs company) to boistrous excitable mad thing jump over riley, mounting him, pushing him in the neck when riley doesnt respond to his advances and standing over him in his face.

if he did have an internal problem, would he be fine with one dog and have issues with others? trigger i understand as he looks for trouble all the time with everyone but mo who hasnt ever fought or argued etc???? why all of a sudden. Yesterday they were licking eachother in the ears and mouths.??? this really baffles me.

Well, it sounds like there might be something more going on for Rolo than it first appears.  If he is taking a dislike to another of your dog's now, it might be that he is in pain, or - given his previous fantastic temperament - even that he has (say) a brain tumour - which can hugely affect behaviour.  It is worth taking him to your vet and asking for a full physical and bloods run - to be absolutely sure there's no physical reason for it.  I do know of dogs which have had massive behavioural changes as the result of physical ill-health. 

I'm not sure I'd want them neutering him when you don't know what the cause of all this is - if there is something else physically wrong, a GA might not be a good idea, or might be best used in other ways to explore other things... 

Please take your time and don't rush to neuter him but stop and think about the whole situation.

Heidzzn, IMO from how I am reading things........(but what you see and report may be totally different to how we may see it in the flesh, so it can only be at best a good guess)

.......is that Rolo is now on his high horse, Riley & Mo are not being silly and not noticing, believe me they knows what is going on, Riley is allowing Rolo to show his authority whereas Mo is using avoidance tactics, which very often can be a higher ranking male or a male at the same pecking level ignoring the new younger upstart,  you see this as him being silly, Rolo sees it as not taking him seriously, Mo obviously is showing no signs of submission, which is why Rolo is taking him on and will.

He may well wish to fight Mo too, so be very, very, careful.

Really feel for you, it is horrible when these things happen, as has already been said, please stay in charge here, you are the authority figure, keep them occupied and away from each other and I really hope things calm down, but you have two dogs showing no submission and one that will and another thinking he owns the world now.

Gosh and they say humans have problems...........

Just a word of warning can't see your set up but your JR may happily get through an electric fence if he is in the mood so take nothing for granted. :-(

i definitly agree with you.

i was just chatting with my boyfriend and thinking about whats happened from 3 weeks ago up until this week and whats changed etc. im soooo stupid!!! i noticed on monday he had thrown up yellow slime with a piece of bone in it and since then ive seen him throw up the same yellow slime(very yellow) but no bone, yesterday. he throws up in 2 to 3 spots at a time. i thought at first maybe he had an upset tummy because of that piece of bone and now that we spoke about it, he threw up his food too day before yesterday because i saw trigger going to eat it, thats how i found it in the gravel driveway, also 3 spots. THIS IS REALLY NOT GOOD!!!! cannot believe i forgot about all this!!!!! i bathed him this afternoon because we stay on a farm so they always muddy and dusty etc, before he went to the vet tomorrow and his tummy was making the strangest sounds, its also very very hard and sucked in.

as a puppy he had coxidea (how ever its spelt) and since then has never had a great coat and has been very very lean, just above being underweight id say.

i just cannot understand why he would be soooo jovial and happy when he sees riley the rescue lab, but doesnt want to know mo, the three of them have always been close??????

ill have to get the vet to check everything.

rolo is very active and eats a very reputible vetenary endorsed diet so i put it down to still being intact and being very active.

im very worried this could be an internal problem or illness but for now all i can do is take him to the vet tomorrow.

carrington also makes sense, perhaps mo is the alpha and rolo is pushing to challenge him. i definitly wont ever take a chance from now on that could endanger any of our dogs or ourselves. i grew up with feuding bullmastiffs and this has just brought back terrible times for me.

i really pray i can get to the root of the proble, what ever it may be

Hello Heidzzn,

Welcome to the Forum, I'm sorry you have come to us during a stressful time ~ but hope the good advice your getting is reassuring.

I don't know what area you are in SA, (Cape? Gaureng?.... we forget on this little Island of GB how big everywhere else is) but I'm giving you a link to a behaviourist who I know from personal experience is excellent ~ I appreciate she may not be your area but contact her and she can advise you of trainers in your area who do not use out of date, aversive and down-right-dangerous-Cesar Milan- style training!
Candi Moon APDT trainer

I cannot stress enough, that sometimes we NEED at the very least 'an extra pair of eyes' because when we're in the middle of it we can't see the wood for the trees!
A trained eye will catch things in the way you all interact, that you may never have noticed/ realised!

Also the trained eye can give you impartial and honest advice, you know that you need this particularly for the difficult decision of wether re-homing one dog is actually the kindest thing to do.

( there are many experienced owners / breeders on this Forum who have had to do this... I hope they are about and will post their experiences and cautionary tales for you)

I wish you the very best of luck, your posts show your battle between your head and heart on this one... My heart goes out to you.
Please get professional help on this one.

I mentioned it right at the top but for me this confirms you need to get a full health check. Any good behaviourist will insist on excluding any medical reasons for changes in behaviour, before they begin to look at anything else.

I'd certainly hold off on the neutering for now, until the pack dynamics can be assessed by an experienced behaviourist.

It doesn't help that there is only 6 months between them in age (a couple of years between is best), and if the JRT is neutered you will only be reducing the gap between them regarding status.

Unless the aggression is sexually motivated it is unlikely to really help, and in fact may make it worse by reducing his confidence and standing as a male further, as you say he does appear to have been pushed and pushed.

I'd definitely hold off neutering if he is unwell - in fact, any good vet wouldn't be neutering or putting an animal under GA if there is a risk of an internal blockage (bone) or of the animal being unwell with giardia or coccidia.  Recovering from the op will be harder, then - and/or there might be another op needed (ie removing ingested body).  Deal with everything physical first off and keep them separated until you are sure you've dealt with any possible physical causes.  Forget about neutering for now, it's too soon - wait for things to settle and see what they settle into, meanwhile fix the physical illness.

It does seem that Rolo would be fine with the other two males as they will not challenge him.  He is the only entire male and has reached adolescence so is trying to assert his alpha position, and the older boys are happy to let him, so I don't see a problem there.

Splitting them up and reintroducing them causes issues, I often find there can be tension with my lot when we have been to a show between the ones who went with us and the ones who stayed at home on our return.

He is confused and wired at the moment due to the incidents with the JRT, so perhaps just the JRT should be kept separate (so his smell is not on the others).  That way Rolo can find his place with the non confrontational other males and then feel secure in his position, and he will then calm down not feeling the need to assert himself so much, due to being pushed into it by the terrier.

Again I think castration at the moment would be a mistake.

good morning everyone

ive just woken to find mo, the lab mix back on the other side of the yard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hes a 70lb boy that made a hole the size of my hand through a patch of unelectrified fencing and suprise suprise, rolo seems quite fine with him this morning. BUT i havnt made a fuss or acknowledged the big dogs yet. trigger couldnt even get through the hole. he was sitting at the spot this morning????????????? i near burst into tears when i saw mo at the front door, he was sooo unhappy away from his big friends:(:( i was just waiting for the sound of snarls and cries as i didnt know at that point f trigger was still on his side or had followed mo, none the less rolo still growled and prowled the fence at 5am thi morning. so nothings changed on that front.

Maybe(thank the lord) mo really just wants to b around them but no interfere with what ever is going on with rolo, my question is, if rolo does test mo will it need to break into a fight (from rolo"s side) or could it be someother form of testing the waters.

after the fight with the JR(the day after) i heard growls and deep throated snarls and went to the window to see mo up against the wall but sitting, making aggitated sounds at rolo as rolo was sort of crouched down infront of mo licking in mo's mouth and teeth and snarling/growling but ears back( looked submissive and sort of strange behavior.

the thing is because mo is a bit of a grumpy dog when it comes to his personal space im worried rolo could misconstru that that as 'ur pushing me to fight'' and accept that as a challenge when really anyone can see its not and mo has been that way with all the dogs, he like face licks in a comforting way which rolo always gave him and he licked rolos ears, they sleep in kennels together all squashed eben though there are other kennels for them. so am i being paranoid? was his growling at mo maybe because he felt insecure with riley not there when mo was brought to the gate?? even though mo was lieing flat on his back and wagging his tail (hes a very chilled dog) off to the vet at 7am

i forgot to mention we have a sugar cane farm and with that come the rural compounds that our and surrounding farmers workers live in, ALL the village strays are on heat at the moment. please understand we cannot control these dogs, the population is staggeringly high for the area we live in, of strays, they do not belong to anyone and the spca (whome ive called out probably 20 times in the last 2 and a half years takes away about 50 dogs a time due to aggression, neglect etc.

These strays wonder anywhere they please and in packs, unfortunately due to the horrible nature that are humans, they hunt the nature wildlife in our area for food so they essentially need to roam to eat.

could rolo be smelling all this and becoming very intense and as others have said confused by these hormone, he also sometimes chews his genitals, not licks(which he does too) but chews!!! there seems to be a yellow liquid there too at times, not only after he wees. he also scratches the ground aftr he poops which trigger does too, they are the only 2 who do that.

Rolo fence patrolling is no surprise as his enemy the JRT is there.

The face licking etc is usually appeasing behaviour, ti is what puppies do when the pack returns after an absence and is designed in the wild to make the adults regurgitate food for the pups, so I would consider this a good sign, in moderation, and should stop if you don't part them.

As for the feral/village dogs: can they not do what they do with feral cat colonies here in UK, catch, neuter and release them back into their territory?  They usually cut a visible v in one of their ears so that ti is easy to see they have been neutered. 

This way the animals live out their lives but no new puppies are produced./  Much more humane that rounding up and destroying excess periodically.

The fact there may be bitches on heat around may have influenced some of Rolo's behaviour as he is a teenage male.

Sounds like he has taken on the top dog role, but lacks the maturity to make a good leader.

As for the genitals, it does sound like he may have an infection.  It is an area that can become damp and allow bacterial or fungal growth.  A dilute solution of hibiscrub (or other surgical wash) to clean the area should tackle any bacteria or fungal spores, but will need drying.  He may need antibiotics.

rolos results for bloodwork shows very slightly elevated liver enzymes but nothing serious, vet says just keep and eye out for upset tummy. otherwise all seems normal.  a lady named adrienne  olivier  is who im trying to get in touch as she is in our area and she was reckomended by my vet. he also seems to think there may be a very small percentage of something else in rolo, either rottie or pitbull!!!!!!!!!!! he wasnt from a breeder but i got intouch with the seller and her two dogs as far as she knows are both 100 percent lab mother she bought from a breeder and father from a pet shop(not really in favor of that.) but hey, not going to critizise for that, its irrelevant. but niether parents have ever shown any aggression.  the vet has given him a female hormone injection and insisted to neutering him as he was even growling at the birdsin the aviary thats in the center of the vets, which he has seen on many occasions. his disposition was very different this time round at the vet, almost like he didnt trust anyone where as in times gone by he has treated every nurse and stranger like they were his long lost buddies.

very strange, hoping the behaviourist can help, thinking obiedience classes or some kind of social training classes may be good for us both? any opinions?

To me it definitely sounds like something medical is going on with him. Neurological perhaps? But his sudden dramatic change seems very odd to me and i would want a more in depth investigation done by the vet.

It sounds like something has happened, for Rolo, which has made him really wary and distrustful of the world - other dogs and things he would usually have accepted.  You don't know what that is, at this point in time.  It may be that the stressful event with Trigger has generalised so the whole world has become a scary place now. 

TBH, I think he needs a period of peace and quiet away from other dogs before beginning to address things behaviourally.  It sounds like he is still really worked up and, if he were my dog, I'd be trying to find somewhere calm and away from other dogs for him for a few days.

I agree there are more tests the vet should run.

For sure, him being entire and there being bitches in heat around could well have made him even more likely to be aggressive.  But what you describe is not normal dog behaviour, and can't be rationalised with things like 'he's an entire male and Trigger was a PITA to him and there are bitches in heat around and...' - all that may well be true, but this has happened so suddenly and his temperament was so fantastic before...

I think he is now on high alert and seeing the world as a threatening place and before you can do anything behavioural with him, you need to get him out of that state and calmer.  He needs peace and quiet, a stable routine, and contact from his (human) loved ones.  I definitely wouldn't want to be putting him through even more stress by way of a GA and a neutering procedure!  If he's already seeing everything as threatening, that is only going to reinforce that belief if more scary things happen.

Again, full medical investigation required.

If I have understood you correctly you say the vet is insisting on neutering him because he is growling at birds? Reducing testosterone can indeed help with reactivity but I'd question castration as a panacea for everything you have described and the sudden change in Rolo. I think the vet needs to investigate a little more thoroughly than this before opting to explain everything in purely hormonal/ behavioural terms. You've really got to knock our possible medical issues before you can move forward in a logical way.

he is going to be on his own  now with lots of attention, even more then before from us. hes such a good dog this really is nothing like him and i know he jsut needs help what ever the help may be, we will figure it out. we are willing to do what it takes to make him a happier boy again.

Definitely needs medical investigation and I would NOT neuter him at this stage, definitely not.  If there is a medical problem going on it could make it worse through the physical and emotional stress of the surgery and anaesthetic, if not then removing the bulk of his testosterone may actually make things worse, either through this possibly being a confidence thing (the attacker is often not a confident dog, my bully who ozzes confidence is actually quite an insecure dog prone to stress) or simply through the physiological change of having a sudden big drop in hormone.

You need to establish what is happening first before you go making a massive change like that, and I agree with others that a behvaiourist is needed.  We can see body language and behaviours that often go completely unnoticed by even experienced owners, and identifying those can make all the difference in a situation like this.

From what you've written it does sound to me like he's finally gotten sick of the JRT bullying him, all dogs have a line just as we do but I still think you must get him checked out (incl. thyroid, he may be young, but a sudden change in behaviour at adolescence - particularly towards aggression - is a specific symptom for hypothyroidism) then get someone in to observe and guide you.

Rottie or pitbull would not make him suddenly change character overnight.  Especially not from being a well socialised happy dog to an aggressive one.  Either there have been warning signs which have been missed or this is medical or both.  Either way I would be wondering why the vet is so keen to castrate so quickly.  He is your dog and they cannot insist on it at all so why are they putting so much pressure on?

Heidzz, he is your dog and your vet 'works' for you.  So request the tests you want done and instruct your vet on what to do.  I agree about the thyroid tests. 

I too agree that more indepth thyroid tests are needed, I had a friend with my breed, dachsie, who had a male with abnormal liver results and mild epilepsy, this went on for about 3 yrs till a new vet at the practice did more detailed bloods than the basics he had been having done, turned out his thyroid function was off, with medication this was corrected,the seizures stopped and his liver function greatly improved as did his general demeanour, he lived with 9 other dachsies and always been classed as a grumpy old man as he never joined in with the others but he had a new lease of life and lived for another 6 yrs when cancer took him aged 14yrs.

Don't be bullied into castration, as I said before it can't be undone if things get worse. Be interested to hear how the female hormone works, do you know which one was given?

As has been suggested a period indoors with only human contact out of sight and sound of the other dogs maybe enough for him to get back some normality whilst you await help from the behaviourist and get any further tests done.

Keep us posted

>the vet has given him a female hormone injection and insisted to neutering him as he was even growling at the birdsin the aviary thats in the center of the vets, which he has seen on many occasions.

Okay; first of all your vet can't 'insist' on anything. :-) He's your dog - you make the decisions. The vet can only recommend - and in this instance I think he's wrong. This doesn't sound like a testosterone-related problem but a medical one. He sounds like a very scared dog - all aggression is based on fear, remember, whether it's fear of losing a valued resource, fear of losing status, fear of being hurt ... The more violent the aggression, the greater the fear.

A testosterone-related agression wouldn't be directed towards birds, because they're not a threat towards his sexual rank. So that can be discounted as a reason to castrate. How old was he when he was last at the vets? Give the female hormone at least 6 weeks before deciding whether a more permanent hormonal solution is indicated, because castration is irreversible!

Has his eyesight been checked?

i dont know, maybe in SA the vets think differently to the states and uk etc. the thing is im no expert thats why i joined this forum to get some advice, therefore the advice i got i took and i sought medical help and they suggested the benefits of castration outweight that of keeping him intact in an all male environment with a bullying pack mate (JRT) as did the behaviourist i spoke to, yet she hasnt come out as yet. He already started generalising as when i brought him home this afternoon, a lady with 2 old JRT who were minding there own business , he began growling at. i feel so overloaded with info i dont know if im coming or going.

he can see us through the sliding door and he is whining alot, i feel terrible as i dont want him to come in the house while he is whining as then he may think this is how it works all the time to get my way, but he is very attached to me so i dont know if bringing him in for a bit will help ease him into being on is own or if im making a mistake and its going to cause problems when we go away etc.

all his bloodwork results were fine apparently except a slight increase in liver enzymes. i asked the vet if this could be a neurological thing and he said the bloods would have given an indication of that????????????? i cannot argue that i dont know any better

Generally more recent studies http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf have shown there are more health negatives than positives in neutering male dogs, especially immature ones and large breeds where the risk of bone cancer is increased among other things.

The reasons vets and welfare agencies are so pro neutering is population control.  But responsibly kept dogs unlike cats can quite easily be stopped from reproducing simply by not allowing them to wander.

An ordinary blood test would not show hypothyroid, it needs specific full thyroid panels to be run.  It is a major cause of sudden aggression and fits

A while back one of my males started to attack the oldest one and they'd got on for years. My eldest boy a few months later started losing lots of weight, blood tests were normal at the time. Sadly I had to rehome my youngest boy and soon after it was pretty evident that my eldest was ill, cancer was diagnosed not long after my youngest boy was rehomed.  I think he'd known for months something was wrong.

What was tested exactly?  'Fine' means nothing on its own - just that everything is within range.  Within that, things can be high or low in range, affect other things and so on.  As an example for thyroids, my Remy was 'fine' for years as his thyroid declined, because his body can't do the hormonal conversion properly - in fact at one point he was clinically dangerously hypERthyroid as his T4 had shot to over double the top of the range (because it wasn't being converted) - aside from that test he always looked fine on paper as everything was still in range but now he's on the appropriate medication he is much better.  Incidentally, he too had elevated liver enzymes at one point, no cause identified but this was shortly before his particular issue was realised.

That can happen with other factors too, always get the actual figures and look at them yourself.

The behaviourist should not be offering explanations without a visit, taking a detailed history combined with observation of your dogs. She may have hunches and those hunches may be right, but without seeing the dogs it is not really appropriate to comment or recommend surgical interventions.

You are very stressed at the moment and understandably so. Would you take the time to try to contact the person proposed by Husky girl and try to talk to them?

This article on Ian dunbar's dogstar daily site may be helpful :http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth

It might explain this, as apeasemetn behaviour to Riley, who is probably actually top dog.

>over the past 4 months rolo has been nudging riley  (the rescue) constantly and jumping backwards and bending down in a playful way then standing over him encouraging him to lick his privates. and this behaviour is very very obsessive and i wonder if its due to him being intact and frustrated.

and >rolo was sort of crouched down infront of mo licking in mo's mouth and teeth and snarling/growling but ears back( looked submissive and sort of strange behavior.

looks like Rolo is your insecure  middle ranker, with the JRT the same age, hence the conflict and the JRT coming off worse due to size.