I everyone,

Just a quick question, I have a 4 year old Springer who was diagnosed with Epilepsy at the end of Jan this year.

I met a woman today while walking my boys that breeds Cockers and was telling her about Olli and how ill my boy as been, she advised that I have a responsibility to inform the breeder that there may be Epilepsy in the lines!!
This has never crossed my mind and nor has the vet suggested it!!

Olli was perfectly health until the start of this year.

Can any of you experienced breeders please give me some guidance on this?

Many thanks

Lesley

Certainly it is important to notify the breeder.

Breeders are often unfairly slated when a health issue arises, but they can only make breeding decisions with the information available to them.

This may prevent them putting the same combination of lines together in future.

It doesn't mean they must not breed from their dog or bitch again (though certainly litter-mates might be more risky) if they are healthy and neither has produced the issue before, but it would be unwise to combine the lines that did so, and will allow the breeder to check if there are any more littermates with issues.

Epilepsy is sadly actually quite common in the canine, it is only considered to be a breed/line speciific issue if the incidence is above that in the general population.

Any lines where it has occured should be especially monitored to see if a pattern can be found, and breeding decisions be altered accordingly.

Brainless put it all very well and I fully agree. Any good breeder would really want to know as it would be vital to their continued breeding programme to find out what has happened.

Thank you for that Brainless.

I certainly do not blame either the breeder or the stud dog owner for this, but the thought of informing them never crossed my mind until I spoke to that breeder today :/

I have an email address for Olli's Sire so will pop him and email just to advise and contact the breeder with the Dam and inform her also.

Thank you again for that :) most appreciated.

Thank you for your reply.

I know the stud dog used had been mated before with the same dam and was not told of any issues!

Is it possible that Olli's Epilepsy could just be a one off?  when the dam and sire have a previous litter?

Yes, absolutely you must inform the breeder.

As you know idiopathic (I recall from your other post Olli has been diagnosed with idiopathic epilepsy) means they haven't got a clue what the cause is. There may be a genetic factor, there may not. If there is a genetic factor it may be just a one off, it may be due to a particular combination of genes (ie his parents combination), it may be something that's sprung up from many generations back. It may have nothing whatsoever to do with the genetics, but the breeder must be informed so that they are aware and they can make informed decisions about future breeding plans.

Agree totally with what Brainless has said.

Edited: sorry, you had a little flurry of replies all at the same time then :-D

Yes, it is possible that Olli's epilepsy is a one off, for whatever reason, most likely you'll never know. With regard to informing the owner of the stud dog, personally, unless you know them I'd be inclined to let Olli's breeder do this (unless you think they're unlikely to).

I would most certainly want to be informed. And this applies to any condition arising in a dog I bred, at any stage in its life. When a puppy leaves I ask new owners to keep in touch and stress that I want to know the good AND the bad !

You should tell the breeder, I would want to know if it was one of my pups. Breed clubs do research on epilepsy too and collect data. I hope you and your boy get on ok.

Agree with the rest, your boy's problem may well be something completely out of the blue and either not inherited or just an unlucky combination, but any decent breeder will want to know. :-)

i agree if it was a pup id of breed i would want to know.

I agree that you should tell the breeder - a 'reputable' one will want to know everything, good and bad.... I don't know about springers but there are definite 'lines' of epilepsy in border collies, although one offs as well... at 4 it may be that it's not genetic, the border collies I know who have clear genetic epilepsy issues usually have fits from a young age, often a few weeks after leaving the breeder and up to around a year or 18 months.  I've heard that with older (ie not pups) fitting it may not be genetic... I don't know how this works with springers though...

Sometimes you only get one mating which gives epilepsy - repeat matings may not have any epileptics, but the pups may indeed be 'carriers' - I know of at least one border collie who sired many pups including 2 epileptic ones... I fear for what may happen when in a few generations related dogs are put together :-(  Interestingly after one pup died at 18months and the other almost a year later the breeder repeated the mating - he gave a pup to the owner of the pup who died at 18months.  Fortunately this one has avoided epilepsy as I believe the others in the litter did, but very much down to luck.

I would say yes as a breeder and as a owner of a stud dog i would want to know if there were any problems with the pups i have been responsible for.

thank you everyone.

I called the breeder this morning and she was fine on the phone until I told her I had phoned to let her know that Olli had not been well and has been diagnosed with Idiopathic epilepsy, I had just got the words out my mouth and she hung up!!!

I phoned back and no answer so left a message, just saying that I just wanted to let her know about the epilepsy in case of future breeding with the same sire.

I have not heard back from her and to be honest I do not want to keep calling in case she feels I am harassing her :(

Since she acted like this, I took it upon myself to inform the stud dog owner, and he was really nice and reassured me as far as he know's he has not had any epilepsy in any of his own lines and has not been advised by any dam owners that have used the dog of any problems.
He said it is not something he has really encounter in the breed, as the breed the best they can as they are working dogs and have to be bred well for that purpose.

He advised me to keep a hold of his number for any help I may require in the future :)  he was really really understanding and honest.

I just do not understand what is going on with the breeder, all I wanted to do was inform her as everyone has advised me to do so :(

Ive done what I can, my priority now is looking after Olli the best I can with the help of the vets.

Thank you again everyone.

thats so sad to read!! sorry but she will get her karma im sure ....your boy is what matters now and i pray he goes ok x
breeders like this make me sick!!! you are a much better person then me cus id be going all out to make sure ppl knew she didnt care!! :( x

You know, it may just be she doesn't know how to deal with this at the moment. Whilst you've known for some time Olli has epilepsy, putting a different hat on, as a breeder to be suddenly sprung with this she might just have found it a complete and utter shock. Or it maybe that she has heard of another sibling with it, and still a shock, specially if it was hoped it was a one off. Or it might be she doesn't want to know.

A friend had to inform someone recently of very bad news, the person being informed did exactly the same, just hung up. My friend was utterly stunned. The person who did the hanging up did ring back some time later, the following day I seem to recall, when they'd taken it in and composed themselves and gave huge apologies.

Don't write the breeder off for doing this just yet, just give it a bit of time to sink in. In the meantime, there's nothing else you can do except to concentrate on your priority, Olli.

Everyone deals with things differently, there is no right or wrong way with dealing with news that may be a big shock. Hopefully she will come back to you.

I know of another breed where just the word epilepsy causes an effect that ruins friendships and causes great fear, so I can understand that reaction. Doesn't make it right though!

Oh dear! Hopefully as someone said it was just a bad reaction to the shock of hearing your news! I would hope I would be rather more supportive even if I was shocked though. I know Henry's breeder was very supportive when I first rang to say we had lost him. Anyway, whether or not she gets back to you, you have done the right thing to inform her and the SDO, and now you can concentrate on looking after your boy.

There is something positive you can do here Lesleyspringers. The Animal Health Trust are looking for a gene mutation that causes idiopathic epilepsy in dogs. We had a very interesting seminar on this at the recent World Congress for BGV's. They are looking for DNA from dogs that have been diagnosed with IE and also those over the age of 7 years that have never had a seizure. There is information here about what they are looking for.

I'm contacting them about our Bernese who is now nearly 9 and has never had a seizure. The more people who can contribute the better the chance they have of finding the gene mutation and a genetic test so really every dog owner and breeder should contribute to this research.

I hope Olli is well and his IE is under control

m x

> really every dog owner and breeder should contribute to this research

Thanks Marion - I've contacted them :)

Also it is a good idea to inform the parent breed club as breed clubs should have a health committee monitoring any breed related or emerging health issues.

Generally breeders will give them information, but owners can also do so to make sure they are aware.

Hi
Thank you for that message, I have not been on for a while, but  Olli is not well.

I had to rush him into the vets this morning after 7 seizures, just had an update and it doesn't look good.

Sorry to read this, it must be a very worrying time for you.

fingers crossed for olli so sorry for you both ((hugs)) :(

So sorry to read this. Hope they can settle him x

Poor Olli and much sympathy to you. I have  witnessed seizures in humans and can only imagine how distraught  you must be seeing your beloved pet  suffering in this way. Have you had any response from the breeder ?