> My nephew didn't blame the breeder at all

That's what I mean :).  "Called her" is probably a Northern term meaning maligned her.

> "Called her" is probably a Northern term meaning maligned her

LOL :) :) :) You learn something everyday :) :)

If I was the breeder of a pup that just a few months after being sold was rendered useless for showing and recommended not to breed from, then I would most definitely offer the buyer a free pup from my next litter. No money, but a replacement pup.  Whether it is just down to bad luck or not, I'd feel terrible and want to HELP.

As a breeder most of us are incredibly close to our puppy owners for years and years what you are saying probably is not out of the boundaries of reality to what many of us may indeed end up doing as we would feel terrible for the pup and the owners particularly after 7 months, it is however a breeders choice and it often comes down to the closeness we feel for those with our pups.

However, if something happened to a pup and I was being told it had a ''neurological' problem and I were being told I had to pay for this, pay for that and it was my responsibility and took a nasty turn you can bet your life I would shut down and take exception to being accused of things and being asked to pay for things, along with other breeders interfering, you have to give breeders time to absorb and think about what they may wish to do, no-one likes to be bullied into things, which is how this felt at the beginning, as though it were a right to have monetary compensation.

There is actually no proof that the dog has a 'neurological' problem from what I can see, only a guesstimate, it could have been anything from toxins onwards causing the problem, and I also agree with the castration, why the breeder paid for that I don't know, along with why it needed to be done now?    Vet on the make, taking advantage of the situation?

The whole thing is a nasty mess and I would be very upset as the breeder here.

I agree with the poster who said to buy the breeder some chocs and flowers and go from there, and as for a the diagnoses that needs looking into possibly by another vet.

Must read more carefully - This pup is 12 months not 7, you collected the pup from the breeder at 7 months.

So you have only had the pup for 3 months? In 3 months it has gone downhill like this and been castrated to boot.

I'm just wondering if Lyme disease was looked into as a cause for the legs going? And other causes environmental, or was neurological disorders the only thing the vet jumped on?

I have to be honest if this were my pup I would probably ask for it back after only 12 weeks away, I would be worried about why a seemingly healthy pup at 7 months were now having problems after a few weeks away from me, I would have my own vet investigating under your insurance, which leads me to the question of the scans costing £1,000 why is the insurance not covering that, as the cause needs to be found, not a guesstimate therapy, have you got insurance? As it seems strange it has not been done.

The dog may even have banged his head running around unattended in the garden, I'd be thinking all sorts if I were the breeder, I think you have been very lucky that they have paid anything, too many unanswered questions and what if's here.

>This pup is 12 months not 7, you collected the pup from the breeder at 7 months. So you have only had the pup for 3 months?

5 months.

7 + 3 = 12? That is not a dizzy blonde moment.............. think I need a dr.

Is that a dr ink :)

:-D Love it! You see this is what happens when you change to decaf, my brain keeps going walkabout. :-D

Daisy, I think that it is very kind of the breeder to offer a pup from their next litter. What I would question is are there any notes at the Vets that state that they found a murmur or such when they anaesthetised her for surgery. As I presume it is the Vet that has suggested that it may be a heart problem then he should be able to back up his statement. I would be perhaps thinking that the Vet was making it easy saying that it was a heart problem unless of course the breeder has known problems in their breeding. I just think sometimes that Vets are happy to pass the buck on to breeders. As for the OP, I think the Vet was a bit quick in recommending castration without knowing the true problem of the dog. He is a prime example of a Vet that wants to blame breeding rather than help find the problem as he was already putting the £sd signs up at the OP and putting the fear of God into them before further investigation.

OP I hope it all gets sorted out with your friend. I too think that maybe there have been too many 'helpful' people putting their spoke in. I never sell pups with any difference in price as they are all bred the same way, all reared the same way, loved the same way and fed the same food and as for show potential, that is exactly what it says on the can, show 'potential'

Im just curious to know... why would a "novice" buy a stud dog?
Or did he become a stud dog when his loss of earnings were pointed out.

These other breeders have really stirred the pot havent they?

Whether a dog gets the opportunity to be a stud dog really depends entirely on whether any bitch owners want to use him, unless his owner also breeds and has compatible bitches to use him on, which wouldn't be the case with a novice.

I would always bow to the knowledge of experienced breeders, but I do think that unless a pup is born with some obvious deformity or fault it is difficult to know if it will be a big winning show dog or not and puppies change so much as they develop, some getting really ugly only to develop into swans and vice versa. Granted the word used is prospect but unless something really obvious is awry is not every healthy, well bred pup a prospect?

I also think that using a dog at stud depends on the bitches lines and how his conformation etc.. fits with hers, as well as the COI. A great show dog is not necessarily the stud you want for your bitch and there is always the problem of overuse of one dog, even if he does throw good pups. So selling a dog as a stud raises questions for me. A very average dog can throw good pups with the right bitch.

A very average dog can throw good pups with the right bitch.

But what will the bitches from that litter produce - breeding is not about one litter.

The point I am trying to make is that a big show winner is not a guarantee that he is the best stud, some perfectly good dogs do not care to show but may be discounted at stud because they do not have the most rosettes. By average dog I mean one that is not a big winner.

The breeder was contacted first because as I stated in my first request for advice the breeder was a friend and lives very close by, if you had read it properly you would not come up with stupid comments like this.

> What I would question is are there any notes at the Vets that state that they found a murmur or such when they anaesthetised her for surgery. As I presume it >is the Vet that has suggested that it may be a heart problem then he should be able to back up his statement

I may not know all the details as I've only seen my nephew once since this happened and this was a couple of months ago so I may have forgotten ! All I know is that the dog had been absolutely fine. However, she had been having bad phantom pregnancies at each season so it was suggested that she was spayed at a suitable point after her season. At some point prior to spaying (not sure whether this was a few weeks or so), she had had an 'incident' while at the park (or somewhere) - something like a funny turn, not sure. At the time it was put done to the phantom. She then was spayed, checked at the vets several days later and collapsed and died in the garden that evening. My nephew chose not to have an autopsy - he didn't think it would do any good. I have no idea about what the vet found (or didn't) when performing the spay - I assume that everything was normal. I don't think it particularly matters. What was relevant was that the breeder offered a new puppy which was very kind of them - my nephew didn't expect that, he merely told the breeder of the dog's death which is what all breeders would like to happen, I assume. No-one (myself, my nephew, the vet) has even suggested that it was the breeders fault so I'm not sure why you should think this ? We have all accepted it as just one of those things. The breeder has the right to know and hopefully take action IF any needs taking.

> if you had read it properly you would not come up with stupid comments like this.

I did notice it was your friend and it may seem stupid to you but friend or not if my dog is injured or unwell it is a vet I would be contacting.

>I did notice it was your friend and it may seem stupid to you but friend or not if my dog is injured or unwell it is a vet I would be contacting.

How do you know the OP didn't ring the vet also? Why do you always have to be so argumentative Stooge? They asked for advice, were given advice and they listened and took the advice. What they do not need is you making comments on something unrelated to the thread which is not constructive in the slightest.

>How do you know the OP didn't ring the vet also?

Because this is what they said

>I phoned the breeder straight away who came around about an hour latter

Of course they may have also phoned the vet in which case they would then say so but it was the phoning the friend and breeder first that I found unusual.

In what way was that unrelated to the thread?  The whole issue is about who is responsible for the dogs condition and, I may be wrong here, but the majority of posters appear to also be saying they cannot see the responsibility lies with the breeder.

We did go to vets on the same day against breeders advice who suggested waiting

and we used the  vet recommended to us by 2 separate breeders

>How do you know the OP didn't ring the vet also?

>Because this is what they said

>I phoned the breeder straight away who came around about an hour latter

Of course they may have also phoned the vet in which case they would then say so but it was the phoning the friend and breeder first that I found unusual. >In what way was that unrelated to the thread? 

The whole issue is about who is responsible for the dogs condition and, I may be wrong here, but the majority of posters appear to also be saying they cannot see the responsibility lies with the breeder.

Just because they rang someone who they considered would give them advice does not mean they didn't ring the vet aswell. Just becasue you want to jump to conclusions.
It is unrelated as your input was just about the vet being rang rather than if the breeder was to blame.

> Just becasue you want to jump to conclusions.
> It is unrelated as your input was just about the vet being rang rather than if the breeder was to blame.

As you wish but I would say it is related to the whole issue of considering the breeder responsible.
You accuse me of being argumentative! :)

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">You accuse me of being argumentative!

">You accuse me of being argumentative!

Yes and not just in this thread. I believe the OP has now realised their mistake and understands the breeder was not responsible.

> I believe the OP has now realised their mistake and understands the breeder was not responsible.

There you go then :)

I don't understand this one price for a pet and one price for a show potential. Don't they all end up our pets? Just sounds like money grabbing by the breeder to me. As show potential/breeding potential cannot be guaranteed how can breeders justify a difference of £500 for a puppy? The puppy qualified for Crufts, there might have only been 3 in it's class, doesn't mean it is exclusively show potential. Just find this difference in price weird as never come across it before.

Daisy, I think you may have taken my post out of context. I did not say that you or your nephew blamed the breeder. I think the breeder has done an admirable thing by giving your nephew another dog. What I was trying to point out is the OP's vet was quite happy to castrate a dog even though the castration would have not effect on the health issue except that the dog could not re-produce the health issue (if there had in fact been one) To me the Vet was quite happy to think that there may be a breeding health issue. Some Vets seem to think that it is easy to blame the breeder. In the case of your Nephew's dog I don't remember reading in the original post that the dog had had an incident before the spay (I haven't re-read it so I haven't checked) However, what if the actual spay had not been done correctly, would he have been prepared to immediately blame a problem with the spay. I am in fact playing devil's advocate on this . Sadly sometimes death occurs without any reason and we are left wondering but I was just using your post to point out that just maybe Vets can be wrong and will often blame breeding. It is hard to tell sometimes as we all hope to have Vets that we can trust. But in the Op's case the Vet has gone down the route of a breeding problem and then other breeders may have tried to put the boot in. I am very pleased that your Nephew will be getting another pup and also knows that he can trust his breeder.

> I don't understand this one price for a pet and one price for a show potential.

Nor do I there is no way you can be sure when a puppy is sold.

Other than to say a pup with an obvious cosmetic fault is not as show worthy (though of course all dogs have faults), and even then it will make just as good a companion, cost the same to rear etc.

I sell all pups as companions first and foremost, anything else is a bonus and not even entirely dependent on the dogs quality.

On the other hand selling a dog that is already doing well at shows, can be more than an 8 week puppy, but often pups run on, adn when the breeder has chosen the one they prefer, are often less than 8 week puppy price, though often not so in toy breeds.

> In the case of your Nephew's dog I don't remember reading in the original post that the dog had had an incident before the spay (I haven't re-read it so I haven't >checked

I didn't know about this at the time I originally posted. My nephew lives a long way away and he was too upset to go into detail at the time. I only heard the full story when he and his wife and son visited a few weeks later. The cause of the dog's death is pretty immaterial anyway as no-one directly involved believes there was any blame attributable.

You know you have said this is a friend so therefor you must know what shes like as a person and a breeder?  I would be surprised if you would have bought a pup from her if you didnt agree with her breeding ethics?  The fact she was there within an hour of the problem starting says volumes to me and the fact you have even considered taking money or going to a small claims court speaks volumes about how you treat your friends

>I don't understand this one price for a pet and one price for a show potential.

In breeds where markings are important, a mismark will never have 'show potential' and that'll be very evident from early on.

I don't understand this one price for a pet and one price for a show potential.

Nor do I, every puppy in a litter costs the same to produce and rear and will be heading for pet homes, OK some owners will choose to do obedience, some agility, some will shoot over their dogs and others will show but to the breeder they should be all the same and sold to loving homes as pets. Some may have working or show potential and some will not but that is about matching the right pup to the owner and the price should not change.

In this case the pup had, one assumes, been run on or returned as it was 7 months when sold and it would be up to the purchaser to judge if a pup of that age was suitable for their purpose.

Edit to say I don't understand allowing a vet to castrate when the cause of the problem is undiagnosed.

I think one of the most important reasons all pups should be sold for the same price is exactly that which is highlighted by this thread:  If pups are sold as 'show' pups, for more money, then I can actually see why someone might feel hard done by and make demands, should that not come about.  I think as a breeder you're opening yourself up to all sorts of litigation if you sell pups for different purposes, for different amounts of money, at a young age.  If all pups are sold for the same amount, it's clear that things are a completely unknown quantity.

>If pups are sold as 'show' pups, for more money, then I can actually see why someone might feel hard done by and make demands, should that not come about.

But in this case it did come about - the pup qualified for Crufts when being handled by a novice so was obviously not 'purely pet' quality.

> as a breeder you're opening yourself up to all sorts of litigation if you sell pups for different purposes, for different amounts of money, at a young age.  If all pups are sold for the same amount, it's clear that things are a completely unknown quantity.

exactly, and we all know there are some dogs in purely pet homes that would make fantastic workers or show dogs, but their potential is not being utilised, as theri owners have not chosen that for them.

> But in this case it did come about - the pup qualified for Crufts when being handled by a novice so was obviously not 'purely pet' quality.

and there of course is what is a show dog or good working dog, what level one would be happy with might be different to what the other person views as a show/trial/working dog.

For example would we consider a lad playing for a third division football team as a successful footballer? or would that only be so if they got to premiere league???

>> Edit to say I don't understand allowing a vet to castrate when the cause of the problem is undiagnosed.

Don't think vets need much excuse to suggest or talk someone into castrating a dog, a nice little earner.

Yep even though I breed, I still get the 'when would you like to book her in for spaying' at the second vaccination.

My answer is usually I'd rather book it closer to the time as I doubt you have appointment books for 7 years time.

the breeder who told me this is a top class breeder and said she sells her pets for £400 then another breeder told me the same and that she sells her pets for £450 as I paid £950 that is £500.

Also like to pick up on this point, I have never in all my years met any breeder who sells pups that they do not think will be of show quality for half the price of one that they potentially judge to be. The only way I can think that this could happen is if they perhaps sell them unregistered? Which to me raises a lot of questions as to why a pup is not registered:

Bitch too young, too old, too many litters, parents not KC reg to start with or from dubious backgrounds, close relatives and unallowable registrations? These are the pups that you see on the free add sites at half price, not from top breeders who health test and put costs into rearing a litter and making the best of the best bitches and studs for breeding purposes, makes no sense to me, I've never seen such a thing, the odd £50-£100 off maybe for a bad mismark, (which yours wasn't) but nothing like half price.

Pups that breeders deem to be of 'potential' show quality are also very rarely sold at a higher price, they are usually kept by the breeder or in preparation for a breeding programme elsewhere or go to a much sort after and often loooooong waiting list, show 'potential' pups are often like gold dust, many of the public never get to see them so no need for a higher price at all, we know when we breed that a percentage of the litter will go to pet homes only and those pups do not go for half price.

I'm totally gobsmacked by the advice that you were given, but maybe there is a new school of breeders out there, :-(  I would guesstimate these 'pet market only' pups are unregistered, it makes little sense otherwise.

You got a KC reg pup of proven show quality, quite lucky, infact very lucky and a good friend the breeder is to have allowed you to have him as a novice, I'm sure there would have been others happy to snap him up.

I'm really sorry that your dog is going through this and yourself, but gosh you're being hoodwinked right left and centre here.

The only upstanding person in this seems to be your breeder.............. think about that apology to your friend........ I would. :-)

I hope that your dog will be ok, and I really hope that you find out for sure what happened and may or may not be wrong with him.

>Yep even though I breed, I still get the 'when would you like to book her in for spaying' at the second vaccination.

Yes, one vet where I live offers a 'free health check' at 6 months, 'at which we will discuss neutering' :(  Who is going to turn down a 'free' health check?!