> THE WORLD SMALL ANIMAL VETERINARY ASSOCIATION (WSAVA)

Yes, that bits easy to find out :)  but who or what are they?

http://www.wsava.org/About.htm

Says it in the name really like we have in the UK BSAVA, but this is international

dorca, that is exactly the response I get from vets where I live (south west).  Regardless of what the latest guidelines are, and regardless of what most of you say about all vets you know of giving the 3 yrly jabs - that is blatantly not the case for many vets in many areas of the country.  I am pretty livid that such vets think they can disregard the latest guidelines on the basis of chop logic.

Interestingly I am south West, and my friend who has the insist on booster yearly issues is Manchester region/area.

It does make you wonder what other areas of vet med are left behind and failing to progress to with the latest research doesn't it!

The vets in this area insist on yearly core booster also - if you are a month late they insist on revaccinating all over again - ignorance, or something else - you decide.

I have chosen to give the puppy vaccs and then nothing, I used to booster with the oldest but after reading all there was about it made the decision to stop.

I have nursed a dog through parvo - he caught it at the vets when he was supposed to be vaccinated, which he didn't get as it was given to a dying pup- the pup died 5 mins after the injection and having seen the pup in the crowded waiting room I wouldn't have vaccinated as it was clearly too sick.  I was astonished at how irresponsible the vets had been allowing the pups into t:he waiting room when they were suspected of having parvo in an epidemic.

> It does make you wonder what other areas of vet med are left behind and failing to progress to with the latest research doesn't it!

It would be regretable if they immediately jumped upon the result of every piece of research just because it was the latest.  A research finding will lead to more research until it is established as a true finding, sometimes it doesn't but the ideal is to work with the understanding you have established at that point.
As a previous poster said this issue is and no doubt will continue to a matter of interest for further research and one might speculate on the outcomes but until they are established it would be very wrong for the profession to jump the gun, particularly as the present protocols are not particular risky.

> It does make you wonder what other areas of vet med are left behind and failing to progress to with the latest research doesn't it!

And, as with most things, research is a very expensive business and as the world is in recession, companies with limited money will only pursue those areas where they feel they will make a profit. Drug companies are not charities.

Yes you are right, haste isn't clever either, but this is something that has been around for quite a while now. The 2002 report to defra is 10 yrs old and that was post the research that triggered other organisations to change their recommendations. In my opinion 10 years is quite a long time to get up to speed. I feel quite lucky with my vet, he is abreast of the latest research.
Anyway i can't add any more to the op so I'm bowing out of this discussion now. It would be interesting if anyone has any more info on titres etc.

This is further complicated by the fact that I still haven't found a vet who will just give the single vaccines that are required, every single vet I have encountered routinely vaccinates with the whole lot

when i asked just for a distemper vacination for my girl my vet said they can no longer get them singulay only in the 3 in 1.

Does anyone know, if a dog is vacinated then a month later titer tested am i right in thinking that the results should come back high as the body should be producing them after reasontly being vacinated yes?

Yes Jo Stockbridge, that is how it should work.  But sometimes dogs (and people) fail to manufacture the antibodies as expected - for whatever reason - which is why, with the rabies shot, we used to have to test to be sure.

>It would be regretable if they immediately jumped upon the result of every piece of research just because it was the latest.  A research finding will lead to more research until it is established as a true finding, sometimes it doesn't but the ideal is to work with the understanding you have established at that point.As a previous poster said this issue is and no doubt will continue to a matter of interest for further research and one might speculate on the outcomes but until they are established it would be very wrong for the profession to jump the gun, particularly as the present protocols are not particular risky.

I'm sorry, what research exactly do you feel is lacking, when it comes to proving that dogs don't require every vaccination, every year?  There are now multiple studies dating back some 10 years all supporting this, as shivj says above.

> I'm sorry, what research exactly do you feel is lacking, when it comes to proving that dogs don't require every vaccination, every year? 

I don't.  The problem with this thread is different issues are being mixed up.  Some posters seem to be talking about whether the three yearly vaccines should be even more extended and some seem to be bemoaning the fact that not all vets are following the current guidelines. 
 

Thanks rabid.

CVL - The vet practice I used to go to would give the full vaccination every year. My dog became ill following the set of vaccinations he had when he was 4 years old and I mentioned to the vet I saw there that I believed it may have been a reaction to his injections - he had an auto immune problem that started the day after his vaccinations. As I had heard of some dogs reacting to vaccinations I looked up the protocol for Novibac on their website and it clearly stated that the full vaccine only needed to be done every 3 years although Leptospirosis needed to be vaccinated every year.

I printed the relevant part of the protocol and took it with me when I saw that vet and queried why my dog had been given the full vaccination every year for four years. He told me it was how they had always administered vaccines but did agree to only give a booster the following year. I changed my vet practice shortly afterwards and my new vet follows the DHP every three years routine. He also advised me to not have the KC vaccine given at the same time but to have it six months after the booster to help prevent overloading my dog's system.
As I attend agility shows and he comes into contact with hundreds of different dogs from all over the country throughout the year I have continued to vaccinate rather than titre test but it is certainly something I have considered.

If your vet is still insisting that the full vaccination is given every year do what I did - google Novibac protocol, print it out and take it with you to your vet and explain that you would like the vaccine administered as per the recommendations from the manufacturer.

It seems that there are vets who are not following current UK guidelines and one wonders why? American guidelines have recently changed to extend the period between vaccinations more (up to seven years with some). I would not be surprised if we follow suit at some point.

I'm amazed that Vets are getting away with not using the drugs according to the manufacturers' guidelines... :(

It seems that there are vets who are not following current UK guidelines and one wonders why?

It's their bread and butter, cheap to buy, quick to administer so they're not going to give it up without a fight.  I was a veterinary nurse 45 years ago and was told all those years ago that all puppies should be vaccinated but boosters were 'Vets' pocket money' was the phrase they used to use.  So I have never had any of the dogs that I've kept boosted.

The current routine doesn't make sense to me.  Most vaccines appear to last for more than 12 months but the leptospirosis one only lasts for 5-7 months, so at any time, half the dogs who are boosted aren't covered for the most common and nasty of the problems, unless of course, they have developed their own immunity... :)

I lived with rats in my garden for over 5 years with the council rat man coming every fortnight and all of my dogs were only given nosodes - none were every ill.

The 12 month check gives Vets the opportunity to sell wormer, flea products and 'veterinary approved complete food' as well as go over the dog to check for anything that the owner may not notice.  Not all owners are as 'savvy' and dog aware as most people on here. :)

>do what I did - google Novibac protocol, print it out and take it with you to your vet and explain that you would like the vaccine administered as per the recommendations from the manufacturer.

Not all vaccines are Nobivac; the details of the brand will be on the vaccination certificate. :-) Vanguard 7, for example, is an annual vaccine.

Westcoast,

Lepto probably needs to be done every year, is my understanding, I think the three year minimum interval applies to core vaccines only. I think some types of Duramune are made to be given annually too. But, as you say, it's as clear as mud.

freelancerukuk

but the leptospirosis one only lasts for 5-7 months, so at any time, half the dogs who are boosted aren't covered for the most common and nasty of the problems, unless of course, they have developed their own immunity... :-)

:)

>  Vanguard 7, for example, is an annual vaccine.

Our vets use Vanguard and apart from Lepto, they recommend full vaccination every three years.

WestCoast,

I did see it and it is food for thought isn't it.

I've attached a link to Jean Dodds' protocol just in case anyone here has not seen it. Obviously it's for the US and they use different types of vaccine but she makes some interesting observations about lepto too (it would need to be given twice yearly to give protection but, in her view, risks outweigh benefits). Of course, epidemiology will also vary between regions and, as you suggest, perhaps dogs develop immunity anyhow.

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Not all vaccines are Nobivac; the details of the brand will be on the vaccination certificate

Thanks JG - should have added that to my post :-) My vet currently uses Canigen.

It would seem, very sensibly, that the information given for Vanguard 7 leaves frequency of vaccination open to the Veterinary Surgeon's discretion. Which is what Esme's Vet has chosen to do.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/pfizer_limited/vanguard_7/-31290.html

However there remains the clear recommendation of annual revaccination on the same datasheet:

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Pfizer_Limited/Vanguard_7/-31285.html

Vet I worked with 1990 already was practising the protocol laid down by  WSAVA and would get in separate vaccines for me . My dogs were titre tested   when parvo was rife , they travelled to shows most weekends. None of the 3 dogs needed  boosters .If you go through the WSAVA reports there are tables clearly stating  longevity. Also says The vet should explain to the client the types of vaccine available., their potential benefits and risks, and their applicability to the particular animal., given its lifestyle  and risk of exposure.
Vets are concerned  that a reduction in the annual frequency will stop clients going to the vet and quality of care will diminish .

I also understand that this is one of the reasons frequently given as to why vets want to continue with annual vaccinations. It doesn't add up really since it is probably wise to go for annual titers instead, so you'd still be seeing the vet as often and the cost of annual titers would take the place of annual vaccinations. It's the pharmaceutical companies who would lose out.

> Also says The vet should explain to the client the types of vaccine available., their potential benefits and risks, and their applicability to the particular animal., given its lifestyle  and risk of exposure.

That sounds lovely until you realise it would have to add cost to the consultation.  I would be perfectly happy with a general health check, which is the important part of the process anyway, and I would be surprised if that was not the case with the majority of clients.

>Vets are concerned  that a reduction in the annual frequency will stop clients going to the vet and quality of care will diminish .

Are these reports suggesting the leptospirosis vaccine duration is likely to be extended?

I had a bull dog. he is now 1 years old . i have not given him a vaccine Since 3-4 months. Is it compulsory to give him a vaccine.
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I certainly think a booster or titre test at a year old is a good idea to check whether the puppy vaccines were even effective.

Vaccination at any age is not compulsory, but I certainly would always give the primary course to puppies and then booster after a year.

I agree with Brainless.  I'd give puppy shots and then a booster at 1yr and that's all.  (Or titre test, if you're worried - bearing in mind that the results may not give the full picture of immunity.)

The explanations vets give should add nothing to the cost of a consult . It should be part of the service. I have just got a boarding client  to ring her vet about the cats  op to have teeth out ..no explanation just that it's booked in next week at a cost of £160. Sorry that's not good enough .What teeth are coming out ? How many ? Why ? What is the aftercare procedure . ?  This cat eats well . does not drool . Has no pain, allows her mouth to be touched , with no recoil .

> The explanations vets give should add nothing to the cost of a consult .

It will add time to what is a routine consultation.  Clearly a veterinary business would have to recalculate the cost of that routine if it is going to be extended to include extra information and discussion about an individuals requirements, in short becomes non routine.

I'd expect that being fully informed so I can make educated decisions relevant to my dog's health to be a normal and routine part of any veterinary procedure.

> I'd expect that being fully informed so I can make educated decisions relevant to my dog's health to be a normal and routine part of any veterinary procedure.

Fine but surely you can see if vets were expected to do this for every client appointments would have to be extended and the number of consultations within a clinic would have to be cut thus making it more expensive for the client.  I am not so sure many of their clients were prefer that.  I wouldn't.

I don't necessarily think that would be the case:  Clients would need to have things explained the first time round, but once a procedure was in place (ie vaccinating every 3 years, or titre-testing annually etc), there wouldn't be more to explain every year - the dog would just return for whatever routine had been agreed upon.  It is only at the time of setting things up that some explanation would be required.

>It is only at the time of setting things up that some explanation would be required.

From experience I'd say the majority of clients would need the explanation every year; very few show any interest in protocols or aptitude for remembering them. ;-)

>It is only at the time of setting things up that some explanation would be required

Despite that, many clients might still just follow the vets recommendation anyway.  Likewise, could clients be reasonably expected to remember what the vet said during the last booster so that they do not have to go through it all over again?   There is always new owners coming to the fold, and not everyone takes dog ownership to the levels of CD folk.  The question is - on balance, would it be pragmatic with an additional benefit to all dogs and their owners for vets to explain the wherefores of vac?

I don't think I have ever had a consult with a vet, which doesn't involve information and a discussion about the individual's requirements.  It's the very least I would expect but I do go fully armed.   Vets are human too, and don't have all the answers.  There again, some clients might want to leave everything up to their vet, and that's their perogative.   The research is out there; those that want can research vac and the diseases to reach an informed decision beforehand. 

The last booster I had done; I went to the practise and saw a vet I hadn't met before.  I asked for the core vaccines only and explained why I didn't want non-core giving him the opportunity to persuade me otherwise.  He actually agreed with me!!  6 days post-vac my dog developed quite a nasty vomiting and diarrhoea episode that went on for a few days.   She was fine in a week but I was thankful at the time she didn't have the full range of vac in her system to contend with as well.  

> The research is out there; those that want can research vac and the diseases to reach an informed decision beforehand. 
>

Exactly.  I think it is only fair to the rest of us who do not want to pay for extended appintment times that if you want a vaccination, you book for a vaccination, if you want a discussion you book for a discussion.

Sorry, my vet calls me on his time to discuss things at length with me.  He responds to my emails, also on his time.  If he chooses to talk with me longer in the consulting room, that is also his choice.  When he runs late, I assume that he needed to spend longer with someone before me - but I don't mind, since I know that he will also spend longer with me, when needed.  Happily, I don't pay him per minute.  I pay him to be my vet.  He goes above and beyond the call of duty and I wouldn't want a vet who was going to bill me per minute.

You are very lucky having a vet that is willing to work for free but just imagine if all his clients expected the same.

>but I don't mind

Why would you! :-D
Actually I think the majority of vets act in this way but that is rather different to saying they should go through a lengthier process of explanation and discussion at each and every vaccination appointment, clearly costs would have to rise if that was the case.

but it isn't/shouldn't be a longer process, it should be standard for a doctor, or vet, or car mechanic to fully explain things.

With new pup I went for vaccs in a new vet clinic at pets at Home (the CV's of the vets seemed good), and I actually had to ask them to curtail the explanations as I had already researched etc.

They freely admitted that most of their clients were not very knowledgeable at all, and it was nice to have someone who was.

I like my usual vets but they do not operate weekend surgeries and they use a very expensive out of hours service.

The Vets in pets at home have 7 day a week surgeries (they also use an out of hours service, but their surgery hours are longer, so less likely to need out of hours).

Agreed Barbara, no doubt literature and FAQ's can also help to remind after initial explanations. If vets can cope with the complexities of the pet passport scheme as was, then I'm sure they can do this without charging extra. I don't recall my vet charging me to explain how the rabies jab and pet passport scheme worked, but perhaps I was unusually lucky.

My vet delights in explaining things at length and last time we were there he even brought out a skeleton thingy to demonstrate something which wasn't even related to why I was there! I don't think that lengthy explanations are a problem to any vets I've visited, except for one agency vet who was really in a rush and I left and rescheduled for my regular vet. However from posts above it seems that habit is a problem. It seems to be habit that people are going to the vet and getting annual jabs. Whose habit is this? I don't know a single person who gives their dog annual vaccinations. Out of curiousity, does anyone on here? And is that because that is what your vet wants to do or is it your habit?

> And is that because that is what your vet wants to do or is it your habit?

If I followed what most of the vets here do it would be annual jabs.

I choose to only do puppy vaccinations and booster a year later.

Funnily enough this seems to be what those owning dogs for decades in my obedience training circles have always done, amny only ever did puppy vacciantions, these were often multi dog owners of anything from 3 to 16 dogs at a time.

Until 5 years ago I had started doing the vaccs 3 yearly, I did have one vet telling me that I had to restart the course and when I challenged them that that was not the case, I was the cleint and I wanted a booster for core vaccines only, they never queried me again.

I did not do Lepto annually as it seems to be a poorly effective vaccine at best and the eon most prone to causing reactions..

>I don't know a single person who gives their dog annual vaccinations. Out of curiousity, does anyone on here?

Yes, I do, and have done with every dog for the past 40 years, with never a problem. Until about 10 years ago they all had the whole lot, every year. Now they have DHP every 3 years and Lepto annually.

>And is that because that is what your vet wants to do or is it your habit?

Because past experiences when vaccines had lapsed, and because far fewer dogs were vaccinated the diseases were more commonplace, demonstrate to me their value.

I mentioned it up above in an earlier post, but I would be very interested to know what kind of proportion of dogs are vaccinated initially and then with regular boosters. I suspect there isn't a reliable way of coming up with a figure unfortunately. Does anyone know of anything along these lines?

> I don't think that lengthy explanations are a problem to any vets I've visited

Nor I for the sort of appointment where a diagnosis and management plan are to be covered but for a routine vaccination I really don't see how you can add in extra explanations without adding time. 

> I don't know a single person who gives their dog annual vaccinations. Out of curiousity, does anyone on here? And is that because that is what your vet wants to do or is it your habit?

I think you have to be specific when you ask that question.  Most of us will be having some vaccination carried out annually because that is what is recommended.  Only some of the recommended vaccines are now three yearly.

I mean the whole lot as described by some posters earlier on