Hello I am looking for some advice concerning my little boy, I bought a toy breed puppy dog at 7 months old who was sold to me my a friend and breeder, I bought him as a show/stud dog and we did well qualifying for crufts 2013. Then in August of this year disaster struck he was let out into the garden as usual for him breakfast and when I went to check on him he was had a problem with his front right paw, he was not limping on it but it had turned up and he was dragging the back of it along the ground when he was walking. I phoned the breeder straight away who came around about an hour latter and she kept saying he had injured himself but I heard no cry and he was in no pain. We used a vet who had been recommended to me by the breeder and a separate breeder and told me he was the best small dog vet in the area. He told us it was a neurological problem and put my little boy on steroids, there was a small improvement but then his back right leg was not working properly as well, I went back to the vet on my own this time, and was told it again it was neurological and that a scan would tell us the actual problem but he also said regardless of the problem the treatment would still be the same, cost of scan £1000 approx, in his words he said (have the scan if we win the lottery). After several months of treatment there was a slight improvement but not complete, I explained to the vet what I had bought him for and he recommended castration as a hereditary problem could not be ruled out, as he said it would not be fair to put another owner through what I had been through with all the tears I have shed over him. so we booked him in and the op was done last Friday. Another breeder then said so what has his breeder offered you, which was nothing as a novice did not really know where I stood with this and also being so upset had not given it any thought. I was told that the breeder should offer me either another puppy (which I would not want) or the difference between a pet and a show dog, the breeder who told me this is a top class breeder and said she sells her pets for £400 then another breeder told me the same and that she sells her pets for £450 as I paid £950 that is £500. The breeder then rang me after I believe being told to sort the problem out by someone else and offered to pay the castration costs which she said would be £65 we actually paid £110, The breeder asked me for a letter from the vet which he gave me stating that in his opinion without the scan he would recommend castration so as not to pass this problem on to any prodigies has now said she would give us £300 which I have been told is not right it has all now got nasty and out of hand and I have been recommended to take this now to the small claim courts. Has any one got some advice for me please.

To be honest I think it is absurd to e asking for money back! You bought the pup in the hope he would be good enough, nothing with dogs is guaranteed and it doesn't sound like the breeder would have had any hint that this would be produced, there is also no definite evidence it is inherited.

Sorry, you sound money grabbing to me if I'm honest.

did the breeder knowingly breed from unhealthy dogs? are the parents affected by this problem? if not and if there are no tests available to screen for this problem then I don't see how you can hold the breeder responsible for the problem.

Dogs are living creatures and as such can be affected by lots of diseases etc that no one can predict. It is not like buying a washing machine that goes wrong because of a manufacturing fault. Your vet has not said that the pup inherited this from his parents and indeed your dog did well in the showring so was of show quality so I cannot see that you have any claim against the breeder at all.

If they are willing to give you anything then I would be pleased with that. You do realise that if the breeder refunds the whole price of the puppy then by rights you should return the dog? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm assuming you're basically posting to ask for confirmation from other breeders that you should be expecting some sort of refund?

Has an injury been ruled out? Were x-rays done? I'm just thinking you must have onne hell of a vet to declare a neurological problem without first ruling other causes out, unless there is a breed specific problem that present itself as your dog's did.

I'd be thinking alomg the lines ... you got your youngster, you qualified him for Crufts therefore your purchase was fit for the purpose for which you bought him.

Hereditary problems do crop up, with the best will in the world and with all the DNA tests, any good breeder is trying to do their best and to reduce potential problems as much as they can. With any living creature there can never be any guarantees where future health is concerned other than assurance a breeder has done their best.

I'm not sure why a refund would be forthcoming, unless you believe the breeder has deliberately gone out of their way to dupe you with a young dog with a known problem.

Although it is true that there are many neurological disorders that can be genetic there are also many that are not and are just random gene mutations and environment causes.

If this is a top breeder she will know her lines and whether anything genetic has shown up previously, if it hasn't then quite frankly it is just bad luck and the breeder to help as she has is being brilliant and does not legally owe you one penny, what she is doing is a moral issue absolutely not a legal one. Just like people many of us will develop problems over the years from neurological to cancers to well the list goes on..... dogs are just the same, and you should not be badgering her for something out of her control, and I hope if you have been nasty to the breeder over this you will stop right now, she owes you nothing, but her good will and that is down to her.

If there are neurological disorders in the line, then it is a different story and the dog/bitch should never have been bred from in which case small claims court is the way to go.......

But, in many of these cases it is just bad luck and no-one would know this would happen. If all lines have had health tests to rule out everything the KC asks for and nothing else has shown up there is little more the breeder could have done.

I think some of the people you have been listening to have been stirring things a bit, the breeder is under no obligation to offer you any money back. 

Just because you bought him with the view to showing him the breeder would not have sold him with any guarantees of this, just the potential.  Would you have taken them to court if he didn't qualify for Crufts?

I'm sorry you are in this situation but it really is just bad luck and nothing you can blame on anybody. As for the expenses you have incurred, they are just a possible expense of dog ownership that everyone should prepare for and something that can be avoided with the correct insurance policy.

I wish you and your boy all the best.

Awful situation but I wouldn't be refunding any money.  I would be over-joyed about the breeder offering any help whatsoever.  She has no responsibility towards the vet bills for your dog, that was your responsibility to take out insurance.  I always send my pups away with insurance and recommend that the new owners take out a full policy asap, just incase.
I don't think your breeder has any blame here at all.
PS  Pups are sold with show POTENTIAL.  It's not a guarantee.  How could the breeder possible KNOW how your pup will turn out.  Same with breeding.

I think you are unfair to class me as money grabbing as we only acted on the say so of other breeders who thought it unfair that we had not been offered anything from the breeder, and as I said we were novices, and finally the breeder then contacted us over the matter not the other way around. I also forgot to mention that 1 of his litter brothers died of water on the brain.

The only way you would get a result in court would be if this was a condition in your breed that had a DNA test for and the breeder had failed to test the parents.

How are his siblings doing? If they are having problems then this may not be a random thing.

Just love him for who he is and forget about any lost potential.

Thank you for this advice, I would not think that he would have knowingly been bred if they knew there was a problem, and we have not been told to ask for a full refund only the difference between pet and show price as would not part with him now for the world.

Thank you for this advice but we were not questioning show potential just that we have had to have him castrated on the vets advice and we had bought him for breeding and showing now we have a loveable pet.

I assume your vet has requested your pup's medical history from his previous vet? If there has been no mention of neurological problems or limping on the front leg prior to your getting him then it's not reasonable to expect the breeder to pay for something that occurred after he left her care.

Hydrocephalus (water on the brain) is relatively common in chihuahuas but unless previous pups had suffered from it then again it's not reasonable to blame the breeder for his brother's condition.

> we only acted on the say so of other breeders

Unfortunately some people take great delight in stirring things . You bought a pup with show potential who did well and qualified for Crufts, anything that happens to him after that point can not be the breeders responsibility. Unless as others have said this is a known condition that could have been tested for, which it doesn't sound like?

What a shame you've fallen out with your friend over this, I would try to make up with them again, they haven't done anything wrong. They're under no obligation whatsoever to refund you even a penny and I guess they have offered you some money back because you've been speaking to other people about it and this will now be talked about all over the place.

Thank you for this reply, I think you may be 100% on the button here that people might have been using us as novices to stir up a hornets nest and then sit back and watch,

> we have had to have him castrated on the vets advice and we had bought him for breeding

There are never any guarantees when you buy a puppy that it will eventually end up good enough for breeding. You paid for breeding potential, unfortunately it didn't work out but the breeder is under no obligation whatsoever to refund the difference between show and pet prices.

> people might have been using us as novices to stir up a hornets nest and then sit back and watch

It sounds very much like it, and I'm sorry for all you're going through. Devastating enough to have these problems with your pup, and we've all had high hopes dashed, but now to fall out with your friend and have people getting you all worked up over something that can not be helped is very unfair.

How old is your pup now, just out of interest?

Thank you everybody for your comments, although I do not think it was fair to class us as money grabbing or accuse us of badgering, as I have already stated we are novices and have obviously made the mistake of listening to a a top breeders who has told us this is not the correct procedure. It appears very hard to know who to trust and listen to, as everyone has given us different advice. or maybe this is how they would have dealt with this matter.

Just turned 1 year

I have a couple of questions:

Did you have insurance?  They will, after you've paid an excess, have covered your medical expenses including any investigation costs. 

How old is your puppy now?  It sounds far too early to have decided castration was a good option.  Just because a dog is entire doesn't mean you have to breed and your boys hormones are more important to his growth and development

You bought him at 7 months old so as a fairly fast maturing toy dog you could see he had potential at that stage, and he was good enough to qualify for Crufts.  Why do you think the breeder owes you anything at all, is it just because a few other people have said so?  You are buying potential not results and many such dogs do not realise their full potential despite their breeders expectations and their owners hopes.

My view is that you should have persevered with a scan - or sought alternative medical advice - and you should have pushed for a diagnosis.  If the breeder, or you, didn't see anything before 7 months (which is quite old to sell a puppy) then he/she cannot be held responsible for what happens later UNLESS it can be attributed to poor breeding.  Even then it's a bit of a stretch particularly as you don't seem to have a proper diagnosis.  If the problem developed quite quickly after the pup came home to you then it might have been possible to ask the breeder to take him back.

I'm amazed the breeder has offered you anything at all and I think her more than generous in the circumstances.  I have every sympathy for your situation and for your puppy's health BUT I do not see the breeder is to blame, these things happen, and cannot be foreseen.  I think you rushed into having your dog castrated for no medical reason and you've certainly no right to expect the breeder to contribute to those costs.

In law dogs are classed as 'goods' (horrible though that sounds) and when you bought him as a show pup he was 'fit for purpose' as proven by his qualifying for Crufts. If he had both testicles descended he was to all intents and purposes 'fit for purpose' as a stud dog. Unless someone can prove that his condition was hereditary (and it doesn't sound as if it's even known for certain what the condition actually is) then it shouldn't be assumed that he would pass it on to any progeny.

It's such a shame this has happened, but I don't think it's anyone's fault and so no refund should be expected. There are so many other things that can spoil a good dog's breeding prospects at any stage of life that they should never be taken for granted. I hope he has a long and happy life with you. :-)

you have by far given us the best unbiased feedback of everyone today thank you.

tonytenerife, it sounds like you genuinely don't know the rules of the game, as it were, and aren't sure who to listen to on them.

I'm not sure how it works in breeds where there is a big difference in cost between show and pet dogs.  Personally, I don't think this practice in itself is ethical because no one can tell, at 8-12wks old, whether a pup will turn out to be a show prospect or even a healthy prospect.

In my own (large) breeds, all pups cost the same - male and female, whatever conformation or potential they have.  That is, I think, how it should be. 

I agree with dogs a babe in that a definite diagnoses should have been reached. It's pity the OP didn't come on here for advice before the dog was castrated. However the Vet has covered his actions as further investigation was declined.
"The breeder asked me for a letter from the vet which he gave me stating that in his opinion without the scan he would recommend castration"  

The vet also told her the £1000 scan would not change the treatment and wait till she won the lottery.

I do feel that the castration was premature unless she has a houseful of intact bitches but then vets opinions on that subect are different to ours, they see it as steady income.

Did you have no 'contract' with your pup between you and the breeder? All of mine come with a contract stating
"The purchaser is advised (if he/she wishes) to have the dog checked by a vet of his/her choice at his/her expense within the seven days of collection. If at this point a significant health problem, not attributable to its journey home (travel sickness) or change in food or water (tummy bug), is diagnosed it should be documented by the veterinary surgeon, on receipt of this report and the LIVE puppy and registration papers the purchase price will be refunded in full. "

There are obvisouly circumstances where this would be extended - e.g.a genetic issue.
This does not extend to the life of the dog as obviously there are so many things that can happen over the years. I also state:
The seller cannot guarantee that the dog will mature as suitable for the desired use.

Poor breeder :(

You have listened to some down right nasties. Yes castration will stop him siring and possibly passing on any condition even though not even been diagnosed nevermind determined hereditary. But also stopping his genes being carried on could be done by you not offering him to stud and this costs NOTHING!

Unless your breed has a crystal ball she is not to blame, and you asking for money is like a kick in the teeth. Pretty much implying hes worthless now so recompensate me.

I suggest you buy your breeder some flowers and chocolates and sincerely apologise for listening to others who only gave you this advise to put salt in the woulds and provide them with some entertainment. Work it out and hope that she forgives you

Hi,
I'm not going to get into whether the breeder should pay you anything or not, I'm more concerned that a diagnosis has been made without scans/x-rays. If this still hasn't been done then you need to know for definite as to what the problem is to treat it correctly. If your dog is insured then use that route but either way I'd want to see a specialist in neurology, however I'd want a basic x-ray done by the vets to rule out any bone and joint issues.
I do feel that your vet jumped the gun in recommending castration, I have a male who won't ever be used who is entire, however the deed is done and nothing will change that.

If your vets aren't listening to you then find another vet who will, it's about the health and well being of your dog now.

Good luck and don't allow anyone in your breed to stir things up further. They are in all breeds, try and make up with your friend and give full explanation to get yourself back on track :-)

I agree with the others, you have been given bad advice by people trying to stir. Make things up with your friend, she couldn't know this was going to happen, and the dog was clearly good quality as he qualified for Crufts. Yes it's a great shame if you now can't breed from him, but it's just bad luck, not anyone's fault.

Suejaw,

I agree with you. The only thing that made me pause was that the vet in question is said to be a toy breed specialist and I wonder if he has seen these symptoms before within the breed and this is why he has made a diagnosis without further tests. I do not condone this but I might ask the breeder if she has seen these symptoms before in her own or in other lines within the breed. I would also ask others in the breed.

Given that at this juncture the vet has not ruled out a hereditary problem I would also ask if the breeder is continuing to breed from the bitch and dog she used for this litter.

I would be inclined to get a second opinion. It is not great to have symptoms of this nature go undiagnosed.

>I do feel that your vet jumped the gun in recommending castration, I have a male who won't ever be used who is entire, however the deed is done and nothing will change that.

I agree that this is a real shame, because if it turns out that the dog recovers from this condition and becomes sound again he could still have had a very enjoyable show career, without being used at stud if the problem is eventually diagnosed as being hereditary. I do feel the OP has been given bad advice by many people, the vet included, and that the castration was a bit premature. It does burn the bridges rather. :-(

He was 7 months old when we bought him.

>top class breeder and said she sells her pets for £400 then another breeder told me the same and that she sells her pets for £450 as I paid £950 that is £500.

Sorry to jump in here but as a toy breeder I dont know of any  "Top breeder" selling a puppy for £400 and your "show prospect" was rather cheap at £950.

As others have said, there are no guarantees with live animals and as you got him pretty much full grown and had him for so long I doubt you would have a case.
Those other 'breeders' must know this and are using you for their own ends.

£400 was for a pet home

£400 is very cheap for a KC pedigree pup even as a pet, sort of price you would pay a BYB not top breeder.

> ... was told it again it was neurological and that a scan would tell us the actual problem but he also said regardless of the problem the treatment would still be the same, cost of scan £1000 approx, in his words he said (have the scan if we win the lottery).

You can ask for a referral to see a neurologist and just have a consultation. You don't have to have your dog scanned, and a neurologist would not necessarily push for this either. The neurologist would talk through with you their observations at the consultation. You would end up with a report to the referring vet containing a possible diagnosis and any recommendations for treatment, with a copy for you. It might cost you a couple of hundred rather than a thousand or so.

> only the difference between pet and show price

He was show worthy when bought, and in most cases there is absolutely no difference in pet and show price, as no breeder has a Crystal ball, so all pups no matter how much potential they show are Pet price.

I am absolutely astonished that following an injury or event occuring in the garden that the first person you would call is the breeder.  I have never heard of such a thing and it would never occur to me.  The first opinion I would be seeking would be from a vet and only if it became apparent that is was in any way likely to be an hereditary condition would I question whether it was something the breeder could or should have known about.
Anything that occurs accidentally or unpredictably I would regard as MY bad fortune not the breeder, although of course if it was something that could affect their lines I would be informing them.
Nor would I consider it the breeders responsibility, in an instance, to pay for a castration as castration is entirely unecessary from the point of view of ensuring no further offspring. It is your responsibility to ensure against any unintended mating anyway so why would it be any different following a health diagnosis so why would they be responsible for the cost of such an unecessary procedure?
I am also very uncomfortable with the title of this thread.  For most people the purpose of a dog, first and foremost is as a lovely companion.  I doubt very much he has failed in that purpose.

I'm actually very surprised at this thread -maybe it is because of my cat background? If I was the breeder of a pup that just a few months after being sold was rendered useless for showing and recommended not to breed from, then I would most definitely offer the buyer a free pup from my next litter. No money, but a replacement pup.  Whether it is just down to bad luck or not, I'd feel terrible and want to HELP. It's not like it was after years down the line, after all. I have in the past had no less than 3 dogs from different breeders that for one reason or another turned out not to be suitable for showing and/ or breeding when I had made it clear at the time that this was my ultimate aim. Two dogs were epileptic, one a possible PRA carrier and no way of knowing for sure. In each case the breeder gave me a free pup when they were able to, and of course I kept the original one as a pet (except one who went to live with my daughter instead -that dog I still see every week). I have done the same when somebody bought a pup off me who never dropped his second testicle -I guess there you could argue it was my fault as I should have checked and not let him go to somebody wanting to show unless both were down at 8 weeks, but that's one lesson learnt since. :)

It's all about goodwill, being a good breeder, and wanting to help, ESPECIALLY in the case of a novice. Plus putting the boot on the the other foot -would I not like the same courtesy to be shown to me? However I would not offer money, it's too much of a grey area, and anyone who has bought a puppy for showing/possibly breeding would surely need another one to take over in any event.

But if the dog was run over for example otherwise injured in a way that was obviously not down to you would you still replace it? in this case there is nothing to say the breeder did anything wrong and it is just as likely that the dog injured its self.

Geeze - dogs are not products you can buy in a shop or a supermarket and 'get a replacement' if the one you buy is faulty...

What if the breeder is not planning another litter?

What if the breeder is, but it's at a time which isn't convenient/possible for the OP?

What if the OP doesn't want a pup, but when offered something for free, decides to take it - and then their heart isn't really in it, because they didn't really want the extra pup.

And so on...

A few years ago I sold a dog to another country, to a novice breeder. The dog was lovely, and she got BOB and Group 2 the very first show she took him to. She was very happy with him, and sent me emails every now and then, saying how much she loved him, and telling me about all his accomplishments.

When she decided to use him at stud, she had him tested for eye problems and found a cataract. I offered a refund, and paid for the travel costs; even though, up to that point, I had never found any cataracts in my dogs, or anything that suggested there could be a problem.

The dog came back, and he had been neutered. I requested all the vet records to give to my vet, and found out that the dog had spent a couple of weeks in the veterinary hospital as a result of being poisoned by something (it was thought to be mushrooms).

The veterinarian ophthalmologist I take him to every year thinks that the cataract, that hasn't evolved in 6 years is a result of the poisoning, so besides being "tarred and feathered" for breeding and selling dogs with cataracts to "poor innocent novices", the dog was neutered and can no longer be used. I did learn my lesson, though.

I suppose this almost goes into where does the Breeder's responsibility end? As I have my first litter playing by the side of me, I have offered them lifetime support and a home should any of them ever not be able to stay with their new owners. I am and will be always there for them for any issues they want to discuss with me, but I have made no guarantees as to show/working potential, how can you see into the future? If you sell a pup that has show 'potential' how long should breeders be responsible for that career in the hands of someone else? The breeder had the dog in question for 7 months with no issues (that is known of)  Why should the breeder offer to replace the pup from the next litter? To see if they have a longer show career? How long would that be and what level would they have to get to?

If the dog was run over it could have been prevented. Anything that couldn't have been I would replace when it was just after a few months like in this case. Think its unbelievable so many breeders would be so uncharitable. :(

How could the breeder be responsible or know what was going on when a quality puppy had an 'accident' in the garden that nobody saw and with little investigation the Vet decided that it 'could be' inherited problem and cut off his testicles just in case?????

I wouldn't subject another one of by puppies to that possible treatment again. :(

> Think its unbelievable so many breeders would be so uncharitable

I posted a few months ago about my nephew's springer that collapsed and died a few days after being spayed. She was about 22 months old and it is thought she had a heart problem. The breeder was devastated and has promised my nephew a free puppy next year when she has her next litter :) :)

I think there is a difference between feeling sorry for someone and generously offering them something - and taking on responsibility for a puppy way into the future, so you offer a replacement because you believe it is your responsibility to.  Compassion (giving because you want to) and responsibility (giving because it is your fault) are not the same. 

> Empathy (giving because you want to) and responsibility (giving because it is your fault) are not the same. 

Of course - my nephew's breeder wasn't to blame for the dog's death.

> Of course - my nephew's breeder wasn't to blame for the dog's death.

I suppose if it was a heart problem you might, at least, feel some responsibility but it was undoubtedly generous all the same as it could never be known. 
However, if the breeder had not made this generous offer do you think he would have called her for it?

> if the breeder had not made this generous offer do you think he would have called her for it?

? Not quite sure what you mean :) :) My nephew didn't blame the breeder at all - he had kept in touch with the breeder and so phoned her to let her know what had happened.