My puppy is now almost 6 months old (He is a Malinois). I had decided long before I got him that I would train him only using shaping. I read up on it and knew exactly what I was going to do and it seemed the perfect method. Now i'm not so sure. I have a nightmare of a puppy! He is very good at 'tricks' but general behavior is not so great. He will not do anything because he has been asked to do it, he has to believe everything is his own idea or that he is going to get something out of it. If I have the clicker in my hand he will sit, down, stay, come etc if I just ask him to sit it's like he is putting 2 fingers up and walking off! His recall is poor, when out on walks he goes on a long line and a harness and I recall him back lots and he does it no problem and is always rewarded but I don't let him off as his recall from within the garden at home isn't brilliant. 90% of the time if I call him in he will come and he gets a treat or a biscuit but that 10% he will stick his head through the back door then trot off. I usually close the door and then try again a few mins later but yesterday it took half an hour to get him to come in.

Ive never had this with any of my other dogs (he is number 6) and i'm wondering if other people have had problems as a result of training their dogs with shaping. He is a clever little man and learns quickly but now i feel like i've created an intelligent monster! :)

I don't think you've created an intelligent moster, I think your breed is naturally intelligent & independant :) I'll leave the advice to the experts here (Marianne is the one for this!).

But, this bit reminded me of problems I've encountered with Buster:-

> he has to believe everything is his own idea or that he is going to get something out of it.

This is the thing that sticks out in my mind the most (there have been others, but this took the longest to crack). I had a hard time getting Buster (different breed than you, but still incredibly independant) to go outside for the his last wee of the day. He had a set place to wee on the lawn, but would flat blankly refuse to even step on the lawn at one point, even if I tried to lure him with a bonio (he LOVES bonios and usually will do anything for anything edible). He got so stubborn with it
We started to make some progress, but that was me pointing for him to go on the lawn and him deliberately walking around the pond to go in the opposite direction to where I had pointed!!! (He knew exactly what I meant by pointing).  I can't remeber how I nailed it in the end, but flippin' 'ek, it was a battle of wills and trying to come up with a way that seemed like HE had the idea to wee and I just rewarded it! (He now readily will go out for a wee when told, no more silly mind games! :) )

I'm thinking typical 6 month old intelligent puppy... Keep it up, as he matures your relationship will deepen, trust will grow and he will want to please you. The ones that need the most work when young often mature into the most fantastic adults

I've come to the conclusion that clicker training, and therefore also shaping, does NOT work well for Malinois PUPPIES. (Adults are a different matter, as long as they already have basic training in place. And many other breeds are fine!) Apart from anything else, I believe it makes them too shy because they are never TOLD to do anything at all, always given a choice. So for my last two Malis I have gone back to more old fashioned methods -not force as such but firmness. A simple example: Rona had never been over an agility jump and didn't want to, so I didn't coax her or tried to give her the idea she wanted to do it, I just took her lead and made her go over (went over myself) -which meant it took two seconds to make her realise it was fun and nothing to worry about. I'm doing the same with my pup Penny who's 4 months now. Like yesterday she had to travel in the front seat of a car for the first time, on the floor, as our van is broken. She didn't want to get in so I lifted her in and she was fine. Last weekend we took her to Newark showground to socialise and she didn't want to walk past the heaters, so I just made her -there was no panic, just hesitation, so I just did it and again she was fine.

Having 3 litter sisters, 2 of which were clicker trained and one was not, there is a huge difference between the 3. The traditionally trained one is the best behaved AND most confident too.

Penny refused to come back during a walk at the weekend, so I realised then every time I call her I have given her a treat and let her go again, and that wasn't enough. We walk on country lanes and at times you must be able to get the dog quickly if a car appears. (Only happens perhaps one walk in five.) So I am now teaching her that when I call her, she is not given a treat before I have grabbed hold of her collar -then she gets the treat and is let off again. That seems to be working.

> He will not do anything because he has been asked to do it, he has to believe everything is his own idea or that he is going to get something out of it. If I have the clicker in my hand he will sit, down, stay, come etc if I just ask him to sit it's like he is putting 2 fingers up and walking off!

At 6 months I'd say that's completely normal.  There's an awkward stage when you think you can reduce the the treats just as he's entering his "Yah Boo Sucks to you" phase!!

I'd suggest upping the treats to higher value ones and persevering.  There's nothing wrong with your training methods (by the sound of it) but some dogs take a bit longer to get the messages, or try their luck for longer periods.  I had the same issues with one of mine but now at 2 years old I realise he's actually pretty good and I've just got used to thinking he's difficult!!

Oh and the back door     -    I cannot count the times he's just stood there looking at me like I was mad to want him indoors and then no sooner do I walk away then he's barking to come in    ...only to stand there looking at me again when I open the door again!!!  I just improved my back door treats and started to recall him in the garden rather than ask him to come to the threshold, and I stopped allowing him to stay outside and made sure he came in when I wanted him to.  Annoying dog :) 

Thanks Marianne, was hoping someone who had tried it with a Mali would reply!

I haven't found Chaos to be shy, he is more confident than any other Mali pup we have had, and if on a lead and made to get on with something he does (put a lead and collar on and put him in the van-he just gets on with it) walk him to the van off lead and expect him to get in-no chance, have to wait for him to 'want to get in'

He hasn't learnt there is a consequence to not doing something other than withholding a treat (which he doesn't care about). Like you say sometimes you need the dog back quickly in a country lane, that's why i cant let him off, he comes to arms length away and runs off!

I think shaping may have to be saved for tricks and more traditional methods for basic obedience.

Dogs a babe, the back door thing drives me nuts too!!! He will even come in but before I can close it he is off again!!

I had thought it may be because he is a puppy but my others were never this bad im sure :)

We will persevere with him but I think shaping behaviors will go on the back burner for now.

I would agree with others just going through a growing up stage. What has worked for me is to up the food value of the treats, and also to become more exciting, I say sausages in a very excited voice.
Sausages is just one of those words than you can say in a very excited voice. I buy in tins of hot dogs when they are on offer, and chop them up into small pieces, or just use normal sausages cooked and cut up, but they see it as a special treat. You could also use chicken or liver or whatever your dog likes.
One way I have used to get your dog to come close, so you can clip the lead on easily or get the dog close enough to you to shut the door is this :-
Sit on the edge of the chair, legs open, hold the treat in front of your crutch, lure the dog to come in inbetween your legs. Once they are doing this, you can then raise the treat as they come in, above their head, this will get the dog to sit.
Once the dog is coming and sitting inbetween your legs, you can move on to doing the same thing but in a standing position with one leg forward. Guiding the dog in, to you as close as possible and then getting them to sit.
Do the above as often as you can, the advert breaks on tv, while in a chair in the garden, on a park bench, as often and as many different places as you can, always getting the dog to come in close and not giving the treat untill they do.
They soon get the hang of it and it becomes second nature to them to always come in close. When you are either sitting or standing. It also helps with retreiving as they will bring the article closer to you instead of dropping it too far away.
When out on a walk if you have trained them this way, they will come in closer, so you can get the lead on, instead of stopping just out of reach and bogging off again.
But you could use it in any situation when you want the dog to come close to you, and the sit on the end means you have got the dog where you want it.