Is there anyone near to Pontefract in W Yorks that is knowledgeable about border collies that could help with a problem?

Have you tried looking at BC breeders on the main CD site?

What's the problem?

He has started to snap, both at her and her boyfriend.  He isnt getting the mental stimulation he needs and I think he is trying to be dominant. He is 12 months old, they moved house about 4 months ago and have a 7 mth old baby.

He is walked everyday, he isnt being mistreated in any way but I just believe he needs something to occupy his brain.

She was giving another dog a treat when he snapped at her and he was sat on floor with dog and wanted dog to lay down so went to get hold of collar and dog snapped at him :(

with a border collie it does not matter if it is walked every day mental stimulation is needed,
they are a working dog and need to do things things to do with their brain,out on a walk things like drop a ball and make them go back and find it, lots of little things that keep the mind active
so simple things like working for a treat, give a paw, learn to roll over,sit down all basics he must do
and then other things like bring a ball before a treat.
Also do not forget he is now in teenage stage so will be trying things on, to see how far he can push,
been through this with a 14 month old who did not win and kept trying his luck with the family but we all stuck with the same rules and he is getting better, he forgot manners, he pushed his luck with the rest of the pack, he thought he knew everything and forgot everything he had learnt so had to go back to basics with him.
good luck it can be hard work

He is not trying to be dominant, dogs are not capable of this.  It's a myth.  Collies are also very sensitive dogs.  It sounds like he is being mishandled and/or misunderstood:

You have said he isn't getting the mental work he needs - that is problem one.  This is essential for a dog like a collie, he will be bored and frustrated which will be making things worse.

Problem two is how he is being handled.  If you want a dog to lie down, you do NOT do it by taking hold of the collar - that is a recipe for aggression.  No matter how gently it is done it is force, it's directed at an extremely vulnerable area of the dog and very close to his face also, it is going to make him feel very uncomfortable and likely threatened.  If he wanted the dog to lie down for whatever reason, then a 'down' should be trained in a positive way.  If the dog doesn't want to lie down, then he shouldn't be made to and the reason for that needs to be looked at; for example lying down is a vulnerable position to a dog, which could tie in with handling issues; he could be in pain somewhere which could explain the snapping in both situations.  If he's worried he could be tense, which could be causing muscle pain somewhere.

The snapping with the other dog is harder to consider without more info but possibly guarding issues over food, or wariness of other dogs which, coupled with a higher emotional situation like handing out treats, is coming out as snapping.

She needs to get a good behaviourist in who can read body language well, understands collies and will NOT advocate any kind of rank reduction/dominance program, but will guide them on the use of positive reinforcement and how to manage the situation and handling methods so that he does not feel the need to snap.

Whereabouts are they?  Someone here may know someone good local to them.

Edited to add: all of the above is conjecture based on the brief info given and my experiences/knowledge of dog behaviour generally and collies as well; do not take it as read!  They need someone to see the dog in the flesh.

good post,nikita.I am continually learning,with my three-they run rings round me sometimes!

oK, let's cut to the basics here, working on what you've given here. Dominance - forget that for a start!  At 12 months this is still a very young dog. Now let's just put our thinking heads on. You don't mention at what age these people got him, but a baby arrived 7 months ago, when dog would have been just 5 months, an age where it should have been getting attention with training, etc. I'll bet the preceding months were not particularly settled with a baby on the way, hormones apart :-O Then on top of that a house move just 4 months ago. The poor dog is probably hugely stressed with so many changes and if you are seeking help for the owners I imagine that they haven't even considered the dog in all the recent upheavals!

You don't say if other dog present lived in the household or was visiting but given the situation I think I may well have had a snap too! Not to do with the collar handling. No you don't need to do a down that way but sounds as though this dog may not have had the training put in. However I do expect to be able to grab, and I do mean grab, any of their collars without being snapped at, but then the collar grabbing game has been taught from an early age and means fun! I suspect the snappng is more to do with a frustrated young dog seeing what he wants beng given to someone else! There's an easy solution, tell them not to gve treats with Other dogs close by for now.

I am sure there are a lot of good behaviourists but if you are going to seek one out for them, find one with a good understanding of BCs, so many don't and have idiotic ideas about how to deal with so called Problems.

My advice would be to call Border Collie Rescue in Richmond. No not with a view to homing but with a view to gong to some experts for advice. I am sure they will be more than willing to point you in the right direction.

Stmulation is important. Tell them to train him to be an assistance dog. Fancy tricks are all well and good if you have time, with a baby in the house the dog is going to come second. Train him ti pick things up off the floor, to hand things to go nto washing machine ... it can be just as much fun as tricks but a whole lot more useful :-). I have put my back out ... I am very glad my dogs know what 'pick up' means!

Course, any help is irrelevant if owners don't see the need for it or are unwillng to act on it.

But forget the thoughts of a 'problem Border Collie' emerging. In truth such a thing doesn't exist. Sadly though there are too many 'problem' owners. Just get them to sit down and think about ... and I'd be looking at the stress levels in this very young dog for starters.

On another point, there is a lot of good help on the net about introducing a baby into a doggy household. I would hope they did think about that??

Sorry, tried to edit too late. Forgive typos in my post, working on a 2"x3" ipod screen, with one finger, lying flat on my back and trying to catch WiFis that are being as elusive as the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow!!

The bit I put about collar grabbing, that should have read something on the lines that I expect to be able to grab the collars of any of my dogs without fear of injury, not just any dog I happen to meet :-O Just wanted to clarify before someone leapt in :-)

Good post Nikita.  My Border Collie is sensitive, so with you all the way on that comment.  He is so very willing to please that he wouldn't handle being dominated, and there is no need for it.  But someone with a new baby may well feel that it's too much work for "only a dog."

Thank you for your comments but Nikita I have to disagree about the dominant dog as I have seen it in my breed.

Trialist they got the dog as a 7/8  week puppy.  The dog hasnt had basic training and I was losing my patience with them as they expected the puppy to be clean in the house automatically, I have told them until I am blue int he face that the dog needs training and doenst automatically know to do its business outside, automatically know what the sit command means etc etc.... I have tried to help them with the basic training but they both thought they knew better :(  (I've had dogs for over 40 years, worked with rescue for over 10 yrs, studied dog behaviour etc)

I have been able to see what would happen and have said right from the beginning that they didnt want to put enough into a dog like a BC and it would bring trouble later on.  The dog treat issue... the other dog was over the fence as it was nextdoors dog so they werent "together in the same room/place" not sure if its a solid fence or one the dogs could see each other through.

Certainly weimaraners, if given the opportunity, will take advantage of a "weak" owner and will refuse to do what he/she is told especially if the training isnt put in place early on.  I dont know anything about BC's, I have always had gundogs, but I do know that they needs something to keep the brain occupied. 

I know that they cant afford to pay for a dog behaviourist, that why I asked if there was someone local to Pontefract that might be able to offer some advice, there is not much point in me going to try and help as I know about weims but not BC's and I appreciate that they will have different traits/behaviours and I dont want to muck up the poor dog and make things worse.

They had him castrated about 4 weeks ago thinking it would "calm him down"..... something I dont think necessarily works.

I dont know how to tell them to deal with his snapping :(

having him castrated was probably the worst of some pretty awful things that they've done to this dog :-(

collies are generally sensitive and clever souls and need mental stimulation and some clue as to how to behave and what to do.  I would advise them to go to some local trainer who uses kind methods and who may be able to help them.

all I can say is 'poor dog' - ignored, expected to learn stuff without any teaching, no mental stimulations, teased by people feeding the dog next door, being castrated instead of trained (never works!)......

Oh fooey :-( I think it sounds as though you've tried as much as you can but you're going up a brick wall. Let's just blame the idiot breeder who allowed these people to have a BC pup in the first place!

I do know BCs, pretty well really. They do need the mental stimulation as you rightly say, but I really think this is all down to stress, lack of guidance, training, probably time and generally a lack of responsibility on the part of the owners. BCs are very sensitive. Yes, there are some pushy BCs but I really don't think this is one of them.

I'm still inclined to suggest they still get in touch with BC rescue in Richmond http://www.bordercollierescue.org/ ... they're only 60 miles from Pontefract (think that's where you said in first post) so might be able to advise someone to work with them. They also have a number of foster homes around and about, it might be that they would know someone to suggest giving some guidance. Who knows ... it might be best for youngster to end up with them!

Thank you for your comments but Nikita I have to disagree about the dominant dog as I have seen it in my breed.

Dogs are never trying to dominate people, that's a scientific fact and nothing to agree or disagree over. Plenty of people however misread dog behaviour. :)

Thank you trialist, I will pass on the details of the BC rescue and tell her to ring them for advice...

Agree,marrianne,I once had someone tell me my dog was"pretending"to be scared,to avoid work,yet she loves to work!In my opinion,i wouldnt have thought a dog could"pretend " to be scared-it either is,or it isnt!

As Marianne says - "dominance" isn't a behavioural problem but a completely misused term when it comes to dogs; they are simply incapable of dominating people.  Never, in any species, does it happen from one species towards another.  Some dogs are more determined, more driven, sure, but not dominant :-)

> Certainly weimaraners, if given the opportunity, will take advantage of a "weak" owner and will refuse to do what he/she is told especially if the training isnt put in place early on.

Sure - because the motivation is not right, the owners are not interesting enough (again motivation), or they do not understand how to go about training that type of dog and work WITH the dog's drives and desires.  I see this all the time - dogs that would be described as dominant by other trainers yet come along beautifully when I set the owners using the right techniques and motivation, none of which have anything to do with rank reduction or other such nonsense.  Just channelling the individual dog's drives in the right way, using methods that work for that particular dog.

What I have seen however is dogs come to me that HAVE had dominance-reducing methods used on them and invariably, it's made them worse and in Rai and Linc's case, made them aggressive towards their owners.  It's part of why Phoebe is such a total psychological wreck.  It's a dangerous word IMO.

ETA: I missed the Pontefract bit.  I can go that far if need be, it's only 45 mins from me - can't go for free unfortunately though!

Replying to all posts on thread . Re. dominance -lovely family came to collect their puppy last week. One of the kids had been doing a lot of reading around doggie issues and amongst the many questions/points she had written down to ask me was this gem: If doggie sees you picking up his poo, he will think you are being submissive to him. I kept a straight face and replied that picking up doggie do is one of the responsibilities of  dog ownership and I've never considered that my dogs  regard me as a lesser species for doing so. The 'deed' is done , they move on and I clear up.  Having said that, and I hesitated before adding this, my Flinti often relies on me to help when he has difficulty 'expelling ' difficult deeds, particularly those consisting of woody material. I grumble and say have you guys evolved/degenerated into such a useless species that you cannot even s..t independently !!???' And put on the protective handwear and pull!

Unfortunately it will take the world a long time before the whole "dominant/dominance" theories are diluted enough via education etc to disappear.........

Unfortunately, this term still exists on websites and well meaning (but inaccurate) information disseminated by so called "breed experts".

Labels are used by the lazy and uneducated and are of no benefit to either dog or owner.

Weimaraners are no more or less "dominant" than any other breed, but it suits some people to ascribe to their dogs some sort of "specialness" that does not in fact exist outside of genetic predispositions which have been actively bred for.