Hi, my youngster is just coming up to 21 months old & I seem to be getting nowhere with him in stopping him running off after other dogs. His recall is very good until another dog appears, particularly if its running, & then he just runs off after it in the hopes of a game. The second part of the problem is that once he gets to the strange dog, he immediately lies down & looks away which I presume is a lack of confidence & he appears to be scared of dogs bigger than him. On the one hand I feel he needs to meet lots of dogs to gain confidence but I need to stop him from running off after everything. To complicate things further, he is going to be castrated early next year as he has a retained testicle but I am worried that this will further reduce his confidence. Any words of wisdom for me please?

firstly there is no hurry to castrate, and actually no reason to remove the descended testicle at all.  I would not castrate a dog showing such overt submission to other dogs.

Re the recall, he needs to go on a long line and be trained to ignore other dogs, his reward can then be going to meet them and if both parties are happy for a short game.

Just curious Barbara, but would you just have the undescended testicle removed or leave alone entirely?

I agree - that is no reason to castrate him.

And every time he succeeds in running off after the other dog, he is learning that he can go and access that reward (the other dog) instead of your treat.  Prevention is a massive part of reward-based training, it's not only about giving treats.  You can have all the treats in the world in your pocket, but if you can't implement things to prevent the dog from accessing other rewards (dogs, bunnies, horse poop), you will not be successful.

Absolutely no reason to castrate, as for best time to remove the retained one, no hurry and could perhaps be combined with another non emrgency procedure, such as hip scorign if yoru plannign to do Agility etc..

Ok I will try the long line. I did discover this afternoon that really stinky garlic sausage did just about keep him with me on our walk when we encountered another dog in the distance so will make sure I have plenty of that in my pocket. Any thoughts on how to improve his confidence with other dogs?

Once you get the long line on, it's repetition - call phrase, and treat when he reaches you.  Repeat x nauseous amounts, until it becomes a knee-jerk reaction he doesn't even think about.

Lying down and looking away are both calming signals, which suggests to me that actually, he's not at all confident once he gets to them and doesn't know how to handle them properly.  So goes for mild appeasement.  Not uncommon - often dogs will throw themselves into situations that they don't know how to deal with, get themselves in the deep end then get stuck!

Yes to the long line, and also if you can, calm, controlled introductions to other dogs, praising and rewarding for calm behaviour and anything that isn't OTT.

Another tip I can give is to get him clicker-savvy, and whenever his gaze lands on another dog, click it.  As in, instantly - the second he looks at them.  If you've made the clicker nice and strong for him (or a short, fairly high-pitched word like 'yes!' if you don't have a clicker or can't get to grips with one), then he will immediately turn around for a treat.  In pretty short time, he'll start to look around to you the moment he spots a dog.  If he's a little way away, he'll come back to you for his treat.  Basically it turns the sight of other dogs into its own recall cue, as an additional to the normal recall.  It makes it stronger, and easier too as you can turn his inclination to run over to them into an inclination to run back to you!  I started doing this with Linc - it was the only way I could get any recall around dogs, despite the usual training he would just blank me - and I now use it on everyone and a lot of clients' dogs, to great effect.  It's also really strengthened Paige's recall around dogs.  And, I did the same for people with Linc, same result.

> I started doing this with Linc - it was the only way I could get any recall around dogs, despite the usual training he would just blank me - and I now use it on everyone and a lot of clients' dogs, to great effect.

I use it on mine, who will eyeball other dogs the other side of the street and then react when they decide they don't like being 'given the evils'! Providing I get the treats out before he tenses up, he just looks at them briefly then snaps his attention back to me, and stays under threshold.

It's hard to say anything about the lying down behaviour without seeing it.  It could actually be the behaviour of a really confident and playful dog who just wants to make sure his playmate is not too threatened by him - I often see very well-socialised but boisterous young dogs doing this, before leaping up and playing very confidently.  Of course it could also be a sign of a lack of confidence - it's just too hard to tell on here...

I would also suggest doing lots of work with him in smaller more confined areas. Start in the house praise and reward him greatly when he comes.
Then progress to the garden, make it fun, keep a toy that he only gets to play with with you, and keep him wanting, don't overdue it, so he looks forward to this toy and knows he is going to have a good game. The toy then goes back in the cupboard till next time.
When his recall is spot on you can then move up to larger areas, on the long line. The idea is to make sure he gets it right every time and you set him up to succeed not fail.
Each time he gets it right, he gets treats lots of praise and a good game with you. The more you can repeat and he gets it right, the more it will stick with him. Don't give him the chance to get it wrong, as it will set your training back and you would then need to go back a stage.
It may not take that long for him to get it, it depends on the dog and how much training you can get in, lots of very short sessions are better than longer ones.
It is better to get it right now and be on a long line than to let him off and never solve the problem.

With regard to the socialising, I would arrange to meet up with freinds who have known nice non confrontational dogs, let them meet and greet on a loose lead, other dogs are the best teachers and the more he meets of all shapes and sizes the better adult he will become.
Have you got a good training class near you ? You could get help then from an instructor and the dog would get to meet lots of other dogs as well.
Good Luck with your boy, he is just going through the juvenile phase which most of them do, and do let us know how you get on.

I think the appeasement behaviour is just springer behaviour.  Mine will do the same thing even though she is a confident girl with other dogs. 

Fin did go to classes but he would snap if any of the dogs came near him. The rest of the time he was desperate to get to play with them & it was very hard to get him to focus. The trainer told me to tell him off when he snapped but I wasn't convinced that was the right way to go about it (my last springer was aggressive with other dogs & I don't want this one going the same way). I've not seen him snap at dogs apart from in class though.

I have my long line ready for todays walk & I have some more sausage to fill my pockets so we'll so how we go. Unfortunately its raining so there's not much chance of seeing any dogs on our walk . His recall is is really good though when theres no one else around!

Right, well if he is snapping when other dogs come near, it does suggest he is lacking confidence.  I definitely recommend you don't castrate him... as that is only going to make him even less confident (probably).

What you need is careful supervised socialisation with the right sort of dogs.  This can be hard to come by if the only time you meet dogs is out on walks...  What happens when he runs off after them on walks?  When he reaches them, what does he do?  Is he aggressive then as well?  Does he just play with them??

Sometimes some owners can keep their dogs away from other dogs too much when they are puppies/adolescents.  This could be for many reasons:  They may have been told to stop play with other dogs so their dog is focussed on them.  Or they may be over-anxious about their dog having a bad socialisation experience, so they keep the dog away from any dog encountered.  Or they may have a very boisterous and playful dog which loves to play with other dogs - but they don't know how to manage this because the dog wants to run off and play with every dog come across.  Whatever the reason, the owner ends up keeping the dog away from other dogs.  But this can often make things worse:  Remember that deprivation increases motivation.  This goes for food, but it (usually) goes for contact with other dogs as well.  If a dog doesn't get enough of it, they are 'starved' of it and crazy for it.

Whereabouts do you live?  It doesn't sound like the class you were at was a good one, if you were told to correct your dog for showing fear aggression.  Someone may be able to recommend a better one, or even better a dog socialisation group which you could join. 

He just wants to play with other dogs but if they are bigger than him, he just looks worried & comes back to me.  He did turn & run home once when a large dog tried to play with him. Fin does have some doggie friends that are bigger than him, they don't play with him but he likes to mooch round with them. He does appear tp prefer smaller dogs (he lives with a mini daxie). I also run a dog minding business so he does get to meet plenty of dogs & he does try to play with them all even if they don't want to play with him. I've only ever seen him snap at dogs in class.

I'm in Bournemouth so if anyone can suggest a class I would be grateful. I've tried a few over the years but I wouldn't recommend any of them

http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers/dorset Have alook here for trainiers apdt are good qualified people the nearest i could find to bournemouth was christchurch. Obviously it depends where in Bournemouth you are. The other was poole,

I agree,I dont think you should have him neutered just for recall.

You sound like you have a really distressing problem though,I cant help with training tips but please,please be carfefull about trainers people are getting ripped off by them all over UK have moreprobs than before

Check the link below for one of them,theres others around youtube if you look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pChEsm6LRsE&safe=active

I'd get in touch with Jennie Smith, who runs a Puppy School branch in Bournemouth (at Holdenhurst Village Hall, wherever that is?). 

You can read about her by going to: www.puppyschool.co.uk  > Class Locator (menu at the top of page)> Dorset

Even if she doesn't run classes for adult dogs, she will hopefully know of reward based trainers there.

**Please ignore Hethspaw, he is a troll.**

**Please ignore Hethspaw, he is a troll.**

Pictures dont lie-

Also poster,be very carfeful on these forums,they are full of commercial trainers posting under whatNot names referring people to their mates in other parts of UK, same as the rest of the net,scams everywhere,unsafe at best.
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I think some comment from our experienced trainers re the video is apt.

No Trainer or club can train the dog, that is what the owner needs to do.

Seriously damaged dog? frustrated maybe.

There are better tools that that owner can use to make walks more pleasant, and without her being 'knackered' these can be used to gain more control, take the edge off the dog for her then to have more chance of training.

The dog and owner are not communicating with each other, seem almost to be unaware of each other in that video.

Don't know what the video is trying to prove?????  Certainly not offering an effective acceptable alternative.  I suppose if you cut the dogs legs off it wouldn't pull, or if it was half the size the owner wouldn't mind so much (tongue in cheek comments folks).

Took Reggie to Jennie at Puppy School and wasn't impressed with her as she was no help with Reg's barking problems

Another quick question: Fin doesn't hear the clicker if a high level distraction is around. Would using better treats help? I use cheese, hotdog, chicken etc but it deosn't seem to hold his interest if there is something interesting to sniff or a dog to play with.

springfever, I don't know Jennie personally, but I would know that she doesn't use aversive methods if she is a member of Puppy School - and will likely know of other reward based trainers in the area.

If he has barking problems in class, that would be something else - you haven't mentioned these till now.  Unfortunately trainers have lots to get through in class, and sometimes just covering the course material itself in time is tricky.  When dogs then have individual and specific problems (barking, anxiety etc), it is hard to have time to go into detail on them - because they are not relevant to most other dogs present - and you do have to ask yourself if one-to-ones or even behavioural work is indicated, instead of a class.  Classes are not appropriate for all dogs.

I'd always say, though, that if you're not happy with any aspect of your training classes, you should tell the trainer so (politely of course) and give them a chance to rectify the situation - don't just leave.

To be honest, Fin sounds very under-stimulated and frustrated, although it's hard to tell online why and without more info into his daily life and history.  If he is not able to hear the clicker, it suggests that either it hasn't been paired with tasty enough treats in the past (doesn't sound like it), or that he is so anxious that he needs to focus on other dogs and not on food - or that he is so frustrated/deprived of other dog contact, that he is 'hungry' for it more than for food... OR that he's just not hungry enough for food to be motivating... And so on.  There are loads of reasons for it, but something is going wrong, somewhere, and it's hard to know what it is online.

You would probably benefit from seeing a behaviourist who can help you put together a package which will guide you with the various issues and also who knows the trainers in your area and which classes might be a good step forwards for him.

PS I'm not watching any videos posted by Hethspaw and neither will I speak to him directly, just wanted to pass onto the OP that he's a troll.

The barking problems are with my other dog, sorry didn't mean to confuse, but I was generally unhappy with the classes as were a few others I believe. I did complete the course but I'm not sure Reg learned anything other than to bark!

I'm glad you said that you think Fin may be understimulated as I did wonder myself if that is why I get nowhere with his training. I get frustrated & then I don't do anything with him for ages. I have reduced his 2 meals a day to a very small amount & the rest he gets when we are out on walks - recall, heeling etc. Someone suggested I did doggie dancing with my old springer but he had dementia & I couldn't persuade him to learn anything so I did a little with Reg (my daxie) so maybe its time to introduce Fin to it & for me to learn some new moves. Reg also likes to do the agility course (only the bits that are his size) at a nearby park but I can't get Fin to focus on any of it otherwise I would get him going on that.

Well if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that what happens with many working-bred dogs that end up in pet homes could be happening...  (you get a similar thing with some collies too...)

Which is that they have a lot of energy, and this energy needs an outlet.  If there is no available working outlet for it, then it can be expressed nervous energy, and comes out in inappropriate ways.  The dog often seems 'stressed' and nervy but it's not apparent exactly why, in that precise situation, it is stressed. 

In human terms, it's how you'd feel if you drank 3 espressos and ate 2 packets of sweets with high E numbers in them, and then had to sit still...

I'd suggest you look into something which is going to exercise his mind and his body:  Gundog work, agility, flyball - something that involves a lot of activity.  (Rather than, say, competition obedience.)  Make sure you play tuggy with him every day, as that's a great outlet for nervous energy and a bonding exercise - you can use it as a reward for behaviours when training as well.  (Click and then produce tuggy, rather than a treat.) 

I think you first need to solve the issue of his motivation though - then you'll be able to train him in whatever of these sports you want.  Is he interested in working for food in the house?  If yes, then that's the place to start.  Have a few training sessions every day and don't attempt anything (besides recall) outside the house until it's going brilliantly inside.  Make him work for his meals - use kibble as training treats. 

Then do the same thing but in the garden or just outside your house.  Stay there with the training until you have total focus from him, then try the park or somewhere more distracting.  Once you've been doing this for a while you will probably find you can join a class and he will be able to focus on you no probs.  You just need to build the distractions up gradually.

Hi. Forgive if any of what comes appears rude. It's not meant to. Tragedy has struck, so I might come across as such, but it's said with good intent. I wouldn't be bothering posting at such a time if it wasn't.

As other's have said. If the recall aint there then why let him off? Long line, lunge lines from riding shops are really good and very cheap ... also good on the hands! He's a working dog. I know nowt about your breed of worker (if I'm guessing right) but I've got workers, I know lots about them.

If he's running off, then basically, you're not exciting enough to spend his time with. You need to look at and think about that.

I am all for reward based training using food, I use it a lot when I want precision work. But. I absolutely do not believe food is required for all things, specially with a quick minded breed as I think you have. A recall is one of those things ... just look at some of the sniffer dogs. Do they get a miniscule piece of cheese when they've found a multi million pound drugs haul? Or do they get a damn good 10 minute game of ball/tug/frisbee with their handler?! Just get to be exciting. But, you don't have to be over exciting. Plus there's an art to playing tuggy! If you're not sure how then the expert is Susan Garrett. Have a look at her website (if not come across, she's a Canadian agility trainer, hugely, hugely motivational, with books, dvds, but a fabulous free website full of resources and ideas ... it's not all about food). If he's interested in a tuggy toy or a ball (preferrably on a very long rope if necessary so you retain control) then you are well away.

As others have said too ... why cut his bits off if not medically required? Removal of body parts are not the answer to everything.

Have a good look at yourself. What's most attractive to him out on a run? A play with you or a play with another dog? If it's the latter then you need to re-think what you're doing. But for now, get a very long line so that you are in control and get motivated :-D

Oh, if he's barking, then use it. Train him to 'speak' on command, give him nose games ... train him to become a drugs detection dog (catnip bags are wonderful for this), get him to speak when he finds it. He has a brain, he must use it! On agility, agility is great ... sadly it's full of wildly over enthusiastic and ill informed owners. Dogs do not need to be super wound up to use their brains or their noses or any other of their skills. If he wont focus on you doing agility then do something that requires focus.

I would love to take every single agility handler to a sheepdog trial. OK, you can see which breed I'm used to now! Never, ever, not in a million years will you ever see a sheepdog handler approach the start post and say "right then Fido, let's now get you wound up so much your brain is incapable of coping with anything sensible" ... agility handlers don't physically say this but there are far too many who do this. I know, it's the reason I left agility. If your dog aint calm and focussed before it starts an activity, it sure as hell aint going to be once the adrenalin starts rolling. Dancing dogs things I can't comment on, never in a million years would I try it ... not 'cause I disapprove, I just accept my limitations ;-)

As said, I have given myself very good reason to be blunt. It is not intended rudely, the key thing is to analyse what's happening and why it might be happening. On the matter of doggy courses, they are great, but they prepare you for doggy courses and give you basic skills, they are not really preparing you for free time out on walks. Good luck :-D

PS Never believe that working dogs (collies I'm talking for now - this is the only breed I know and would have, but I don't see why other working breeds would be disimilar) have to be 'on the go' the whole time. That's a fallacy and I would love to meet the person who started it. Working dogs need an outlet yes, they have intelligent minds, as an intelligent child/adult an outlet is required. This does not mean that they need to be 'on the go' continually. I could direct you to many top sheepdog trainers with exceptionally happy and well balanced dogs. Their dogs are not working all the time, in fact if they get 20 minutes a day that may well be the norm. Sometimes they may go on a full hill gather lasting 7 hours, for a few days in a row ... but then they'll have weeks with little work. They do not become destructive, they do not become deranged. They have to accept the working life, the main thing is they have an outlet.

Many will say that you have to give a working dog a lot of physical activity. It's mental stimulation that's required, depending on the individual, this may well only be 10mins a day! Lots of physical activity = an extremely fit out of control working dog :-D I know, I've been involved in their re-homing!

it sounds to me like you've got a delightful dog ... just you might be needing to find the delightful helper to help you along your way!

My youngest Golden did this at least until she was 2. I walk on the New Forest, a very long way from roads, so usually I just let her do it. She went off to meet other dogs, sometimes lying down when she got near, sometimes not. That is definitely not necessaripy submission or nervousness. I watched her all the time and only called her back for a treat when she looked and started to return. I feel that it is their hour of the day to have fun and youngsters need to learn by experience. We get very few aggressive dogs on the N.F. and all dogs are with owners. At 3, Isla grew tired of running to other dogs and now comes back almost every time she is called and certainly enough to keep me happy. I would stop panicing and just watch what happens. I run a dog training school (in Ferndown) so do have some idea of the standards that I and other pet owners want from their dogs. Someone has a young Golden at my school and he has TAUGHT this dog to be totally disobedient by calling. " *** come" constantly, at every walk since she started going out, in the most boring voice I have ever heard. That poor dog totally ignores him and I doubt she will ever be good at recall because she has never been allowed freedom to learn.

I wonder if you run the training classes that I keep eyeing up in Ferndown?!!

I must admit I do wonder if I have trained my other dog to bark, inadvertantly, whilst trying to train him not to - he's a dachshund so he's programmed to bark unfortunately. I'm very careful with Fin that if he's busy then I wait for him to notice me before I call. He's also whistle trained which he responds to much better than to a voice command but it still won't override the desire to have a game with another dog.

By the way, Fin is a show bred Springer not a working type. Whoever once told me that show type springers are calmer than working ones was wrong!! Fin is much more hyper than my old working springer was.

Thanks for all your help everyone. I will bear it all in mind & see what I can come up with to try & get him to focus more on me.

I have a rescue working goldie who came with a non existent recall and strong hunting instinct, she was on a long line for two weeks and I trained a recall using food circuits.
My munster pup was taught the same way only not on a line (tiny pups don't often want to run off) only sometimes when he got back to me it was for a good game of tug instead of a food chase. Luckily my collie speaks English so I didn't have to teach her :D Though I clicker train everything I haven't used it for this but its also a great suggestion.

Found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpYNOfMxPDU
I do it a bit differently- and I'd do it on a long line in your case: call dog, lob food one way, dog eats, turns, call, dog runs back, I throw food in the direction they're running past me, eat, turn, call, throw, etc. Sometimes I reward when they get to me from my hand.

I would also be inclined to ask friends with "sensible/nice dogs" to walk near you to bump into while you're training. You can work on your recall on the long line then release them to say hello once you've done a bit of work.

Aha! I have this video but not looked at for some time. I must dig it out. Thanks for your comments.

Well ,recall in my 20 month Border Collie has gone completely AWOL. We have four girls in season and he is very frustrated due to lack of 'nookie' -timely separation is not easy in a home situation. Padz seems to regard walkies at the present time as opportunities to practise  technique, on neutered males. He is such a lovely, friendly boy but unfortunately,some owners of said neutered males become hysterical when he does this and I am finding walkies difficult at the moment. I know he will 'grow out' of this behaviour. Our 7+ Retriever was the same but I really cannot understand the 'dogowner rage ' that this behaviour generates. I used to live in Hungary where it/is was very rare to neuter dogs. My entire boys never chased/mounted  males there. I reckon it's a case of neutered  males giving off scents that males in their natural state do not under stand so...'when in doubt mount'!

p.s. he never has problems with entire boys. Greets them, sniffs them  and moves on .

> I reckon it's a case of neutered  males giving off scents that males in their natural state do not under stand so...'when in doubt mount'!
>
>

Yes it is a negative side effect to neutering males (feminisation syndrome) that vets seldom mention.  For less confident dogs it can lead to fear aggression with other dogs, and make the poor dogs lives a misery.

> I know he will 'grow out' of this behaviour.

Not necessarily, depending on the cause - it could be from stress caused by not being able to get at the girls rather than solely frustration, in which case yes, it'll stop when the seasons stop but could well start up again next time seasons kick in!  I'd be distracting him and stopping him doing it.

> Our 7+ Retriever was the same but I really cannot understand the 'dogowner rage ' that this behaviour generates.

Because some of us have dogs that get very upset when they are humped, Remy for one will really have a go at any dog of any sex or status (neuter/entire) that tries to hump him, he just hates it.  And, he and Saffi bothb have very bad arthritis so it would cause them considerable pain - I got hold of a dalmatian the other day who was trying to put his front paws on Saffi in play, because it was hurting her and the owner wasn't doing anything.  I made sure he knew the problem and he stopped the dog doing it again.

Raine also would absolutely go to pieces if any dog humped her (no, she's not a neutered male but I'm sure there are neutered males with similar issues out there) - if a dog goes near her bum it frightens her, if one was to hump her it would scare her witless and cause severe social anxiety around other dogs for months.

It's not necessarily just the humping that annoys owners - there may be other reasons too.  I won't go 'rage' at an owner of a humpy dog but I will make sure they stop their dog and why they need to stop him (or her!).

It is very rude for a dog to attempt to hump a strange dog, uninvited.  It is not socially acceptable canine behaviour.

Puppies often attempt humping because they get very excited but often don't have the social/play skills to be able to express this excitement in a more appropriate way.  Once they learn those skills, the incidence of humping reduces massively.

Even if he did this to a female dog, uninvited, it would be rude and he'd be likely to get told off. 

Not only would I be somewhat horrified and very apologetic if my dog decided to mount a random dog on a walk, I would expect to get an earful from said dog's owner and I would expect my dog to be gobbed at by the mount-ee!

Most dogs don't want to be mounted by dogs they know let alone a stranger on a nice walk. Not to mention your boy only needs to do it to the wrong dog who WILL retaliate and it'll end in tears.

I am sure the OP doesn't allow her dog to mount other dogs, but was questioning why it was that he was attracted to neutered boys.

As long as they apologised and stopped him continuing to try to mount the the neutered dogs owners should not be aggressive to OP, and also should realise that this is one effect of castration, as many are never told that their dog may attract unwanted attention.

Not to mention your boy only needs to do it to the wrong dog who WILL retaliate and it'll end in tears

Mounting,challenges to dominance & maybe as bad as both is the fact that numerous dogs these days,compared to as recent as 10 years ago, show few if any signs they can read the others body language and of course,who do the owners try & blame?? the good old "I'll mind my own buisness you mind yours" type of dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym11wLvwxVI&feature=related&safe=active
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Absolutely correct ! Of course I don't 'allow' my boy to mount other dogs. As I explained in my post, he is in a particularly 'aroused' state at the moment on account of having 4 gorgeous girls in season at home ( nookie forbidden ) but does under normal circumstances have a tendency to mount neutered males at other times. He is most certainly at the 'hooligan teenage' stage being 20 months old but in every other respect is a gentle, well mannered dog and very well socialised. This does beg the question, in my mind at least , why it is the norm in the UK to neuter male dogs? There do not appear to be any health or behavioural advantages whatsoever. Indeed, neutering has a negative impact on the health of male dogs, particularly when it is done at a young age , the norm in the UK. I have lived in other European countries where dogs are left entire and never encountered issues between males. The interaction between male dogs would be greet, sniff and move on ,as my boy does with entire males. 
I would really appreciate a debate on this .

I think this is an interesting question.

I wonder if in other European countries there is quite the same density of dogs in certain areas, in particular city parks etc..? Perhaps canine population density makes it harder for intact males to all rub along together.

I also wonder about breed differences, others may disagree but I do feel that some breeds have males (when intact) that may tend to be more intolerant of other intact males in their space and more likely to fight (the local park for instance). Additionally we have many more breeds in the cities with some kind of fighting heritage and these males are more likely to be intact and probably have lower reactivity thresholds.

I also wonder about socialization and canine signalling. Some breeds don't have the apparatus to send appropriate, timely signals, other breeds/types are not socially sensitive in terms of boundaries, others are super sensitive. All these differences can lead to tensions and misunderstandings and intact males are probably more likely to boil over. There is also a 'modern' trend for some bitch owners to free run in-season bitches in the park!

The other thought is that in days of yore dogs probably had more freedom to explore and get to know about other dogs and young males would probably get into a scrap or two and learn their manners and how to behave with other intact male dogs. Today there are probably fewer opportunities for that to happen.

This is not a coherent argument but some ideas as to why we favour castration in the UK. Generally, people view intact males as more problematic to own.

It's primarily about population control.

The welfare agencies have gotten into the mindset, that neutering will prevent unwanted litters and ease the rescue problem.  This is certainly an over simplistic view. 

The worst part of which is the neutering of very young puppies, which even some breeders in the USA and Australia advocate to protect their lines from exploitation by puppy farmers and back yard breeders, or one could argue to prevent competition).

This may in fact be the case in the USA where fully fenced gardens are not always the norm so avoiding unwanted pregnancies is harder.

The thing is that a large amount of irresponsible breeding is not accidental but deliberate.

Most of those responsible enough to pay the several hundred pounds to neuter are likely to be able to prevent accidental breeding anyway, by not allowing their male or in season bitch to roam.

Very few people seem to know the alternatives in case of mis-mating (Alizin injection up to 6 weeks, or spaying), so continue with an unwanted pregnancy rather than terminating it.  Males living with bitches can have an implant for temporary sterility, or even made completely sterile by chemical injection (which leaves the hormonal system intact) if not required for breeding.

Also in the drive to persuade male dog owners (who after all don't suffer the consequences of the unwanted pregnancy, unless it's their own bitch) it has often been pushed as preventing all manner of behaviour issues, that in fact maturity and training would solve far better, but once done it's too late.

I wonder if in other European countries there is quite the same density of dogs in certain areas, in particular city parks etc..? Perhaps canine population density makes it harder for intact males to all rub along together.

I also wonder about breed differences, others may disagree but I do feel that some breeds have males (when intact) that may tend to be more intolerant of other intact males in their space and more likely to fight (the local park for instance). Additionally we have many more breeds in the cities with some kind of fighting heritage and these males are more likely to be intact and probably have lower reactivity thresholds.

. Some breeds don't have the apparatus to send appropriate, timely signals, other breeds/types are not socially sensitive in terms of boundaries, others are super sensitive. All these differences can lead to tensions and misunderstandings and intact males are probably more likely to boil over. There is also a 'modern' trend for some bitch owners to free run in-season bitches in the park!

The other thought is that in days of yore dogs probably had more freedom to explore and get to know about other dogs and young males would probably get into a scrap or two and learn their manners and how to behave with other intact male dogs. Today there are probably fewer opportunities for that to happen.

This is not a coherent argument but some ideas as to why we favour castration in the UK. Generally, people view intact males as more problematic to own.

Good post, some of everything is on the ball.

I also wonder about socialization and canine signalling

Thats a problem (in cities anyway) thats never going to be solved, as you say "in days of yore" it was easy enough to get reasonably adequate park socialization, people were willing to spend time to help with a new pup on top of that good % of owners did tend to hold their dogs back with puppies on their first few days out and give time with their dogs to let the puppy get to know their dog without it feeling over whelmed & maybe scared.

Not anymore, if a puppy gets gets bowled over on its first outing all we get is the predictable "Oh he/shes alright only wants to say hello to puppy", blah blah blah

.

Brainless,

Yes, you are right it does underpin best intentions about population control, but as you say all the efforts probably go into the wrong people.

I do also feel that because the general population is possibly less dogwise that very normal canine behaviours are labelled as malign. The adult dog that snaps and gives a quick muzzle jab/fang whack to an overly rambunctious youngster is likely to be labelled an aggressive/vicious dog at least in some city parks I know of. At the other end of the spectrum you have the status dog owner with the revved up intact male that is left to barge up to other intact male dogs - again, through no fault of their own the happy go lucky bully temperament can be too in your face for some other breeds and it can end in tears. Plus those dogs are often under-socialized and just don't know how to be polite around other dogs.

I find that any 'reactive' behaviours are often met with advice to castrate as soon as possible and while sometimes this can help, it is not always the case.

> I do also feel that because the general population is possibly less dogwise that very normal canine behaviours are labelled as malign. The adult dog that snaps and gives a quick muzzle jab/fang whack to an overly rambunctious youngster is likely to be labelled an aggressive/vicious dog at least in some city parks I know of.

I'm not in the city and I come accross this too.
A few dogs have given Buster a little growl or warning snap. Even though Buster was physcially behaving, to me, it looked like the other dog has picked up on the fact he is excited (eager to play), so has given him the signal to keep himself under control. On other occasions dogs may growl at him through fear (not used to coming face-face with such a big dog).
In 99% of these cases, the owner of the other dog will tell thier dog off for being 'agressive' :(

Not one of these times has Buster ever had a go back, he knows it's just the other dog telling him to keep himself under controll and respects what he's been 'told', so it's not even as if the other dog has caused any incident to happen to be embarassed about. These owners never seem to understand when I say, 'don't worry about it, it's how dogs communicate' :(

But the dog-savvy owners stand out a mile and it's so refreshing to meet them & thier dogs :) It's so much more relaxing letting Buster interact with the dog of a dog-savvy owner,  and it's nice know they are not going to die of fright if Buster does some play-biting with thier dog!

I think there are so many tiny little signs that we can miss and a very large breed dog that cannot help but tower over a smaller breed may cause offence without meaning to. Thank goodness you are such an understanding, responsible owner.

If you think about it, unless as a pup our dog is exposed to very large dogs, very small dogs, dogs that have very long fur that obscures much of their face and eyes, dogs with permanently pricked ears, dogs with long dangly ears, dogs with no tail, bracycephalic breeds etc..... how can they be expected to interpret the body language of that other dog as an adult? As we know, some breeds have very little in the way of social boundaries other breeds are really quite aloof.

My own pup was terrified the first time he met an adult Old English Sheepdog- he couldn't see the dog's eyes or face...it was a whole new experience and a sharp learning curve.

I lived in the Netherlands for over a year and daily walks with my two plus joining the local dog club demonstrated several things to me;

I wonder if in other European countries there is quite the same density of dogs in certain areas, in particular city parks etc..? Perhaps canine population density makes it harder for intact males to all rub along together.

I saw many more dogs on my Dutch walks than I have ever done on a typical UK walk, even in popular area's and most of those were entire.  For me to see half a dozen dogs close enough for mine to say hello in the UK would be a busy walk, in the Netherlands that would be quiet with a typical walk including 10 or so dog encounters.  The vast majority of those dogs were friendly, I can only remember two that were less than ideal - one was muzzled and on a lead so we kept our distance, the other was a 6 month old bullmastiff that was a bit too boisterous in his approach but my eldest told him off and he went off in a sulk.  Next time we saw the bullmastiff he had either learnt his lesson from mine or from several others as his approach was much more considered.

These dogs were of a variety of breeds from a pair of shiba inu's to boxers, GSD's, akita's, labs, spaniel types, BMD's, wolfhounds; every type from tiny toys to heavy giants with a variety of face and body shapes, none of them had a problem communicating with each other.  I am currently in Turkey where it is normal practice for a dog to have it's ears cut off about half way down if it has had a rabies vaccination and they are some of the most well socialised, dog friendly dogs I've ever had the pleasure of meeting even without their ears to communicate to each other.  If my two can pick up on the tiny physical signals I give out to indicate my mood I am fairly sure they are able to pick up on the various signals other dogs give out - they are designed to communicate visually with their own species after all.

The stray dogs I have seen and met here in Turkey have stongly hammered home one point to me - problems dogs have communicating with each other or approaching and behaving around each other comes from one source only - their owners.  These strays are on the streets from puppy hood, they grow up around other dogs who teach them how to communicate.  Dogs brought up by humans that deny them that opportunity to learn from their elders are the ones that have problems.  PEOPLE are the cause of the problem.  Train the people and the problems dogs have will disappear.  In the Netherlands the dog training community was huge - the classes I attended were run in a field with 40 dogs and their owners attending half a dozen classes run adjacent to each other with up to 12 in a class.  This club run 8 sessions a week (so approx 250 dogs) and was one of 6-8 clubs that run classes in the same area.  For a town of about 75000 people thats a lot of dog training clubs compared to the UK and would go a long way to explaining the much better manners and general behaviour of the dogs we met.

I think you make interesting points, definitely food for thought. How do these large puppy training classes work and what training styles are used? Are pups allowed to interact or are the classes highly controlled. In a park context if adult dogs snap at pups how do owners on both sides react, or do the dogs not snap?

It is really hard for dog training clubs to find suitable premises in our urban areas. Community halls are often used by children and mothers do not want dogs in the same space at any time for reasons of hygiene- there are also cultural objections. It is hard to get local councils to agree to use of park space for dog training- they don't like it or want the hassle. Out in the country things are easier but in city spaces dog training is not really welcome and talk of classes with 40 at a time would make most council officials blench.

Do you think there are the same amount of status dogs/owners on the continent? A major problem here is bad ownership...really bad ownership. There is a proliferation of bull breeds in the inner cities as well as Husky type dogs. The effect of various  popular 'vampire' series on TV has generated interest in owning dogs that look like wolves, again ownership is often totally unsuitable.

I must agree that some of the most balanced and best behaved dogs I have ever come across have been rescue street dogs often from Spain or similar. As you say, they have had freedom to roam and intermingle with different dogs and people and have learned much as a result.

The club owned/rented the very large field we used and the classes were spread around the field so all the dogs could see each other but you couldn't hear the next class, the evenings I went had a ringcraft class (which is what we went for), baby puppy class, older puppy class, agility, general obedience (I suppose like the KCGS), schutzhund, gundog and agility classes.  Each class had their own instructor (baby puppy and gundog had two) and their own part of the field to practice in and contained 6-12 dogs.  Most of the classes used positive reward style training - there was lots of pocket sniffing going on before the classes started! However I did notice a dog in the schutzhund class wearing either an e-collar or spray collar.  The dogs were allowed to interact on lead before and after each class at the mutual agreement of the owners and often under the supervision of the trainers.  As the classes went on so the puppy's were given more off lead time as they practiced their exercises.  Depending on the class some dogs were always on lead - such as our ringcraft but the agility and gundog classes were completely off lead.  I think that this meant that the puppies learnt that being surrounded by dogs did not mean they could play - they had to learn to concentrate on their owner and not saying hello to everyone.

On the edge of the field was a log cabin that had a bar style layout and served tea/coffee/soft drinks and snacks and that was packed before and after each class which gave the dogs plenty of time to do their socialising too!  We were the second session of the evening and the first session seemed to be exactly the same.  They then did two other evenings and Saturday afternoons each week, all with two sessions each.  I think they also did some theory classes too using the tea cabin as a classroom.  This field was located in the 'dog park' that had training fields for agility clubs, other general clubs, the local Doberman and GSD breed clubs, a schutzhund club and a couple of others who's signs I couldn't understand!  The 'dog park' where training was carried out was right on the edge of town - an area of fields with each club having it's own field, usually with a wooden cabin on that could be used for owner socialising and equipment storage.

The parks in the town all had a small fenced off agility course for dogs and this was always in the area they were allowed off lead - there were then other areas where dogs were allowed on lead and others that were dog free so everyone had a space they could use without disturbing other park users.  When mine set the bullmastiff straight on how she found his behaviour unacceptable it was his owners appologising that he hadn't learnt proper manners yet.  A cross word was rare but when it happened most of the owners took it for what it was - communication not agression.

Attitudes to dogs in the Netherlands are completely different - finding a rental home with dogs is easy, most cafe's, restaurants and shops welcome dogs, they are a common site at the weekly market, and unlike the UK everyone I spoke to thought it was common practice for dogs to be walked twice a day for 1-2 hours.  I never heard of one instance of a latch key dog.  I also didn't meet a single status dog - doesn't mean they don't exist of course but I never met one.  They saw dogs as dogs - pets to be responsible for that when well mannered are a joy to own and a part of the family.