well here is a dilema for everyone, My partner has numerous FTCH labs, all hip elbow eyed and dna clear. we have a kennel girl that works for us 3 mornings a week and stays in with a friend if my OH is judging.
we heard on grapevine that our kennel girl was spending some time with her friend and her new pups. well we put two and two together, looked at dates 9 weeks ago and we were away for the day both judging a working test. to cut a long story short, we went last night to the house of her friend, went in and asked outrightif they had pups, she wasn't there but husband said yes, OH opened front room door and lying on a sofa on a blanket were two yellow pups. he said it was his dads dog that did the deed. after speaking to our kennel girl thatnight (I took a dna swab from pup) she admitted that they had used OH dog on the bitch, who is unregistered, has no health tests and bitch had to have a c sec. we said we were sending the profile off to check which of our dogs it was and transpired it is OH young upcoming one that as yet has not been hip scored or had any other tests. to say we are fuming is an understatement, someone that you trust has stooped so low, put both maiden dogs in danger and bought pups into this world that may have health problems, unbelievable, gobsmacked and hurt by it all. I expect that as they were keeping it quiet they thought that we wouldn't hear about this but the proverbial hit the fan last night and this morning.

OMG that is horrendous.  You must feel very betrayed.

On the other hand, reading the other thread running at the moment about dogs being better studs if they do the deed whilst young, you could consider it in your favour that he's had a go and everything is in working order!

But still, no excuses.  Well done for doing the DNA test and catching them.

I think id be speaking to the police, shes stolen from you or conspired to defraud you - I know its not about the money its the deception.

I do hope you have sacked her as well, what disgusting behaviour!

> I do hope you have sacked her as well, what disgusting behaviour!

I totally agree & I would be hopping mad. The dog was not her property to use in this way, I bet your absolutely fuming..the nerve of some people!!!

> I think id be speaking to the police

Having entered rooms in her home univited and not sure if permission was obtained to swab the puppies I think I would be dealing with it just between the parties myself :)

Definately sacked her on the spot but her friend whoase bitch it was tried to blame our kennel girl, in my opinion they were 50/50 to blame as I pointed out to her our girl doesn't have a dog, she does and it was her duplicity to mate them. Spoke to solicitor this morning and she has you are correct 'obtained goods by deception'. we have a pc friend who shoots on our land and will be seeing him tomorrow about it all. Just feel numb and hurt by the whole thing and it also gets you thinking of the bad implications such as what if they had hurt each other when tied, if the pups have HD, ED etc, bitch may have infection and a minor thing too if OH runs the dog next year and he becomes bitchy, cocking his leg he will have wasted 2 years training of him as he won't be able to run him. people just see pound signs and dont think, god knows what she is going to do with the 2 that survived, she left 7 hrs after 1st pup before she took to vet, 1 born alive after c sec, 4 more could not be revived. It is horrendous and they aren't kept in a quiet clean place ither, 4 day old pups lying on a sofa because bitch wouldn't stay in box and kept picking them up. She has 2 other bitches in house.

Stooge, we were invited into the house so that point is irrelevant, we just opened the door to another room.

> we just opened the door to another room.

I think you should probably have had permission to do that, even police don't search without a warrant :), but it will be interesting to see what your PC friend says.  Did you ask permission for the swab?

Stooge as I said before I am not getting into a petty debate about asking permission for a swab, your points are raised to cause an argument and I shall not bother to answer anymore, did she ASK permission to use our dog NO and this is what the thread is about. FYI I am an ex wpc so I do have a slight idea about the law.

> your points are raised to cause an argument

Not at all, my comments was not even directed to you originally.
I would not dispute that this girl has done wrong, just feel that you may have blown your chances of dealing with this in a legal manner but then as an ex wpc I will bow to your greater understanding of these matters and leave you to it :)

well as I started the thread how can your points not be directed at me? we will agree to disagree and leave this matter behind. I am just so wound up over the whole matter.

Floradora I agree with your moral stance on this issue, and I too would be absolutely fuming.  However it's worth thinking about the next step quite carefully:  given that you cannot undo what they've done, what would you like to happen next?

Do you want financial recompense or at least stud fees paid?
Do you want the pups registered with your dogs details as sire?  (I might have missed whether that's even possible)
Do you want an apology?

There are of course a range of possible outcomes but you might need to plan your strategy to make it/them happen and if you go about it in a heavy handed way or back them into a corner they may come out fighting.  For instance it's entirely possible that they might decide to change their story, after talking to each other.  If confronted with some kind of police or official intervention they might decide to simply brazen it out and challenge you to prove it.  They might say that the swab was obtained without their permission OR simply deny that it came from one of their puppies.

I don't know if they can be legally required to submit to DNA testing if you ask for it to be done again and in a legal manner.  I wonder if this is, in fact, something the police can help with or is it a civil matter?  It's well worth doing your research about your legal footing before you speak with the puppy owners again and I do hope your PC friend, and your solicitor, can assist you.  I don't believe these people should be allowed to get away with it but I fear they might.  Fingers crossed that you get the outcome you want, and deserve.  I'm sending positive thoughts your way

I wouldn't just be hopping mad I'd have hopped to the moon with rage by now. How dare they do such a thing!

I guess it depends on what you want the end result to be:

For me it all comes down to reputation and theft and I'm sorry but if someone did that to me, they would get the biggest lesson of their life, I would hang them out to dry.

The DNA swab obviously is the key but as obtained illegally it is not the be all and end all,  you still have two people's admissions of theft in using your OH's dog without permission, there is still plenty you can have the pair on.

The pups are half yours, infact due to what has happened I would be prepared to go all the way on this one, from having the pups completely seized to suing for large damages you cannot let them get away with this, it is plain and simple theft and as you say potentially putting your dog at terrible risk would be included in those damages.

Your solicitor needs to make sure these pups are not sold or moved on, your rights over the pups need to be implemented now, so that if need be a DNA can be ordered on the pups (if still needed) and no profit or sale can be made by the breeder until this is sorted out.

Don't hang around on this you need to move fast. Find a different solicitor or go back and make yours start working for you regardless of the DNA, you have proof from the kennel girl.

Solicitor now!!!

Let us know what happens.

> I am just so wound up over the whole matter.

Well, I can see that and that is probably why you seem to think I am not on your side.  Far from it.  My point, to the first poster who mentioned it and not you as you had never mentioned it at that point, was legal involvement could back fire for you. 
I agree with Dogs a Babe that you first have to think about just what you want to come out of this and secondly I think you have to think about what their reaction is likely to be.  If you involve solicitors etc.  I think most people faced with that would sort themselves out with a solicitor too.

> Solicitor now!!!

That's going to be very expensive - what would be the end result ?? The pups can't be undone and does Floradora actually want the pups ?? The poor pups should be at the centre of what happens - what will happen to them, what's best for them - they would have to be retained and not sold and is this the best for them to remain where they are ?? Untrained and uncared for ?

I wouldn't recommend anyone to 'rush' to a solicitors without a lot of consideration of what outcome is wanted and how that is to be achieved. Surely a few deep breaths and then a calm conversation with the people involved.

Hi all,

Thanks for your replys, we appreciate them. Luckily we recorded all conversations with both the girls otherhalf and our kennel girl on our i phone. the KG said she was forced into it. the pups cant be registered as dam not registered, we don't want the pups neither do we wish to be associated with the breeding, the dam is a very poor specimen and was actually a rescue (gets worse), very bad conf and overshot. I could not sleep last night as i was so wound up and not much better now. will contact the solicitor again in the morning. Obviously this isn't about money on our behalf (was on hers though as she said they were short of cash) as if she asked to use one of the stud dogs that are tested we would have turned her away. as there are only two pups I would hope that she has the decency to make sure that they go to fantastic pet homes for a minimum sum. The sire as I said has had no health tests done as yet, his sire was retriever championship winner and dam was a ftch too so understandbly we do not wish him to be associated with this bad practice. my OH is also a KC A panel FT/WT judge and does not want his reputation tarnished with this either.

What a mess :(

First protect yourself and yours, have you thought about getting yor dog swabbed in case of infection ?    I'd be sending them the bill for it too.   As their bitch is a rescue, you've no idea of her health history

Can't believe someone could be so underhand

:(

As they hoped to make a financial gain from the experience I certainly would get a stud fee out of them, that and the cost of the Vet for C section, will leave them well and truly out of pocket, after the sale of two unregistered pups.

This could be done through the Small claims court, though paying for a solicitors letter with your demands would be a good idea.

Hideous way to be treated by someone you trust!!

Out of interest do you know if your dog was taken to theirs or was the bitch taken to yours?

What a mess and a case for theft of sperm!!!

Good luck and let us know how you get on with the solicitor and also pc friend... So many variants in this as to whether theft or fraud, I've not read all posts so it might actually be clearer... Also if you take the civil route what about potentially using Trevor Cooper?

It gives me the creeps, to be honest...
In Victorian times and earlier, poor families sent boys up chimneys and young girls into prostitution. So now the trend seems to be, if you are short of money, then why not prostitute your family pets?  This awful trend for breeding animals willy-nilly for cash has got to be stopped - it's almost redefining animal ownership, as I bet many of those responsible only have those dogs in order to breed from them, and the rest are the equivalent of pimps putting their 'family member' pets on a street corner to be mated for money.

Breeding from a rescue dog is a big enough crime in my book - but going so far as to obtaining a mating by theft, takes the biscuit!

Sorry, Stooge is really trying to get a rise out of me, not you.. :)

I assumed (and yeah, I shouldn't have done) that you had permission or at least, no objection, to the taking of the swabs. You have an admittance to the fact that your dog was used without your knowledge or consent. I would have got permission which is why I would go to the police.. (I did say what ID do, which does not in fact mean you should do it!)

I do agree with whoever said you need to think about what you want.

I would want the book throwing at the kid personally - whether that is possible is another matter, you are unlikely to be able to use the recording of the conversation unless the girl was aware and allowed that to happen, just as the swabs won't be of any use unless permission was granted and you can prove it (and whilst a verbal 'contract' is every bit as legally binding as a written one, proving it is not so simple!).

I think the only other sensible course of action might be to ensure that these puppies go to good homes and do NOT profit the owner in any way - that'd be something you'd need to discuss with them however and is more a 'damage limitation' course of action.

Floadora

Which rescue did the bitch come from as I am sure if it is one of the breed rescues they would be very interested to hear about this especially if the contract stated that they must get the bitch spayed.

> Sorry, Stooge is really trying to get a rise out of me, not you..

I most certainly was not and as you go on to largely agree with my points, clearly not! :)
It just leapt out at me that, whatever wrong they may have done and lets be clear they have done wrong, entering someones home without permission would not be seen well in law either and if the OP wants anything to come out of this she needs to consider these things.
Similarly the recording of the conversation.  I really don't think that would stand up legally.  When someone has entered your home against your wishes it would be all too easy to say that anything that was said was said under duress.
We have just recently had a murder case dropped because a policeman did not take a statement correctly so I doubt all this would be useful in taking this forward legally.
I am still not clear what the OP wants.  If it is simply a stud fee a solicitors letter may help them extract it, assuming the people have any money to give them, but if they want some sort of criminal case brought I really don't think they have a hope and could end up in trouble themselves as they people will, inevitably bring someone in to defend themselves.  

The bitch was bought to our kennels apparently. I am not sure which rescue the bitch came from but will endeavour to find out. Have got the PCM visiting this morning as I thought it is obtaining goods by deception and theft. Obviously a stud fee is not our concern as the dog is not tested and we do not wish his name be associated with this crime. Will keep you all informed and thanks to all for your input. Regarding us recording this is for our own benefit and I know that I fall foul of the ripa act. We have admittance both on text and in front of an independent witness.

I think you are quite right to follow this through. I am sure that it must constitute theft. It sounds to me like you never "entered" thier premises without consent, but were allowed in without a problem and also that they were well aware that you obtained the DNA samle presumably with their consent. I think it may be prudent to have your boy swabbed for infection and also have his DNA recorded. (You probably have by now) You will need the bitches DNA as well to get a parentage result.
What these girls have done is dispicable, was dangerous and was stealing. Stick to your guns and make sure it is something they will never consider doing again.
Aileen.
PS many a case of theft has been proven without the perpetrators consent !!

> we do not wish his name be associated with this crime

The only way people are likely to find out about the association is if criminal charges are brought!  The puppies cannot be registered so how else will people make the connection?
I do think you still need to consider what you want to come out of this.  The girl has been sacked, presumably without reference.  I feel all that matters now is the puppies.  If it was me I would either be demanding, perhaps by the threat of further action, that they hand them over at the appropriate time, they cannot be worth much unregistered, or gritting your teeth and working with them to ensure that the fruit of your dogs loins go to appropriate homes rather than leaving it to these disreputable people.

or gritting your teeth and working with them to ensure that the fruit of your dogs loins go to appropriate homes rather than leaving it to these disreputable people.

I'll tell you something Stooge even though I am 100% behind my pups for a lifetime, I would not wish to be associated with these pups at all.

I certainly would not wish to help these people..... they should not have been brought into this world and I can't blame Floradora and O/H for wanting distance from any association at all it is why a stud fee would also not be anywhere near any recompense and I would not be going for a stud fee at all that would be colluding with this whole mess.

I would seize the pups for one reason only to make sure that these people did not earn one penny from these nasty dealings and pass them onto a rescue which I knew vetted well to re-home quickly, IMO a rescue will vet much better than these people interested in making a quick buck and prepared to steal to do that. They need a hefty consequence for their actions, not a slapped wrist.

That may well be enough to satisfy...............

It is down to Floradora as to whether she wishes to prosecute, myself I would both of them, because reputation means so much sourcing good dogs and bitches, doing all health tests, working to make the Ch's and then someone cuts through all that hard work and mates your dog with a bitch that should never have been used, risking my dog in the process I couldn't let that go, not when something is planned and executed like this behind your back. There is a world of difference between an accident happening and intentionally doing something.

If it went to court the dog may well be named, but IMO so what.. it would not damage the reputation of the owner, as the truth of the matter would be out there, keeping it a secret let's them get away with it IMO, it would stop others doing this sort of thing (do we think it does not go on) as there is a consequence and the kennel girl would have a record, along with the 'breeders' who used the dog and tried to profit from it.

The hard work behind making a good dog should go to the stud dog owner (and the glory to it's original breeder/lines) I am just so outraged that they could take someone's pride and joy and hard work and do such a thing.

We all know how far we are prepared to go with these things and what will satisfy us, some of us will be satisfied at lesser outcomes, all I can say is they can thank their lucky stars they did not do this to me I would be so bent on making them pay for daring to risk my dog and stealing what was not theirs, I would feel like my dog was totally violated.

But the law needs to be upheld and everything followed through correctly keeping anger in check, as long as Floradora & O/H are satisfied and able to sleep again that is all that matters, and of course the dog has no after effects.

> I certainly would not wish to help these people.....

I suppose I would not see it as helping the people particularly as presumably they had hoped to get some money for the pups.

>But the law needs to be upheld and everything followed through correctly

It does which is why I feel that the OP may have jeopardised their chances in that respect already.

Perhaps.......... well actually you are right. :-) What has been taken already the DNA and voice recordings can not be used, however it is easy to re-start with the Kennel girl being brought in and a police statement taken, followed up by a DNA (if needed) due to the admission, so not necessarily lost just needs a re-boot and correct procedure following from this moment on.

Maybe Floradora will get her settlement away from the courtroom, (whatever that is) by fear alone of what she knows and has proven, I doubt the perps are likely to be contesting. Although you are right if not started again properly it would be thrown out of court with what Flora has illegally got right now.

A good solicitor should have told her to re-start.

> I would seize the pups for one reason only

But you can't do this if they are going to be the subject of a court case ! They would have to remain the property of the other people UNTIL the result of a court case which could take months (even more) to resolve :)

Sorry not making it clear: This would all be pre: a request for a court date.

This is only what I would do, I would have a solicitor detailing the theft and use of said dog using the admission from both the kennel maid and the 'breeder' of this act.

I would have the solicitor detail the stud fee if such a mating had been accepted (which of course it wouldn't) detailing how the dog was used without proper permission and supervision, theft of sperm, possible transmitted infections, damage to the name of the dog and affix that it was used on an unsuitable bitch and possible rearing unhealthy specimens a whole list of monetary damages which will make their eyes pop out.

A solicitors letter can request whatever you wish, if they do not like, either party can then take the other to court to have it settled.

I would have in that letter a settlement figure and/or a seizing of the pups, depending on what you want.

True, they can tear the letter up and then leave it to the OP to fight through the courts or they can agree to settle not wishing to carry on with it all. (my guess in this situation if they have no money as they are guilty of theft no doubt about it, you don't fight something you are going to lose) In which case I personally would seize the pups.

Going to court as you say can mean that the pups cannot be moved from the breeder, either way I would have the upper hand as it will inconvenience them immensely to keep the pups in the view of an investigation.

It is why everything needs doing immediately without delay................ and Floradora needs to know what she wants at the end of it all. What I would do and want may well be totally different to what Floradora wants to do it is up to each individual. :-)

Sounds like you were not prevented from seeing the pups so entry to their premises was with their knowledge and permission, but they did not have permission to use your dog or be on your premises with their bitch.

I would be beyond fuming and these people must be accountable for their action in some way.

At the very least I'd sack her, there's not much that you can do about the litter now.

Another thing to consider is make sure that any paper work or advertising doesn't state the sires name if you want make sure you are not dragged into this with any potential owners.

I am not really sure I understand exactly what you feel the crime is and where it would fall in a court of law?

Obtaining services by deception and failure to pay for services.

Thanks :-) And would dog studs actually be covered by that and stand up in a court of law?

">I am not really sure I understand exactly what you feel the crime is and where it would fall in a court of law?

At the very least, it must be theft.  Something was stolen (sperm or 'services' from the dog) without the owner's permission.

good idea by suejaw for a solicitor I would start with Trevor Cooper

There are a number of offenses committed here, my advice is to contact the police and also Trevor cooper, The recording would not stand up in court but it can be used by the police to tell them that they have it and hopefully get an admission of guilt, therefore not requiring a  trial. The judge can then pass whatever sentence/punishment that they see fit, though if you want financial recompense then it may be that you have to take it up as a civil matter.

By the way, if they invited you into their home and didnt explicitly say that you cannot enter the other room then you have broken no law. Im not sure on the DNA swabs- did they give permission?

I agree that you should at least ask for a stud fee, to pay for the effects of this on your young dog - who as you rightly point out may now become more interested in the girls than work.  Mating for the first time does affect them, and you should be recompensed for that. 

I'd also sack the kennel hand as she's not reliable and should never have allowed this to happen - she could even have told you about it, after it had happened, and you could have then insisted they get a mismate injection on the bitch and the whole situation would never have happened.  She has done wrong not only by allowing this to happen, but by failing to tell you about it for X weeks after the fact - when it could have been rectified. 

However, personally I would not be demanding the pups or any money from them.  These silly people now have unregistered and possibly even crossbreed pups to rehome, which are going to be high energy in all likelihood and a handful for pet owners, what with a sire with such working blood behind him.  They have taken this on and made their bed - now they lie in it.  Let them see how hard it is to find homes.  It is not your responsibility, any more than any other ill-advised mating between dogs you don't own.  And yes, since they have raised the pups themselves and paid for the litter and the raising of the litter, any money they make from selling the pups should be theirs. 

But yes, you should have a stud fee - that is what has been 'stolen' from you.  Don't let yourself think that accepting a stud fee means that you permitted the mating - it doesn't.  It is compensation for what has happened to your male.

> But yes, you should have a stud fee - that is what has been 'stolen' from you.  Don't let yourself think that accepting a stud fee means that you permitted the mating - it doesn't.  It is compensation for what has happened to your male.

that is what I meant too, and also it adds to the expenses the bitch owners have incurred.  With stud fee and a C section and only two unregsitered pups to sell, they should be so out of pocket that they would never consider doing it again.

Don't forget that the taxman may be interested as well, if they are working and paying tax then any money they get from the pups may also be taxable.

I would think the pups both together will sell for less than the cost of the C section, let alone rearing costs.

I agree, but who knows what they will say in adverts and how much the pups will sell for?   The taxman should decide whether they have made any taxable income from this venture ;)

Police are going to visit and yes the c sec was £700 so they are well ou of pocket. Friend (PC) is going on Friday(when back on duty). Will let you all know the outcome. OH is contacting Trevor Cooper tomorrow as we have being away for two days judging

To add insult to injury too, I have been in the food shed and two bags of pro plan pup food gone too!! Beggars belief not only have they stolen the use of our dog but we are blinkin feeding the bitch and the pups when they are weaned also.!!!

They are either really stupid or think you are a soft touch and won't do anything about it.

I think the first one is relevant and hope you get proper recompense both monetary and also your reputation fully intact.

Did you find out about what rescue she came from ?

Statements have been taken and they have visited, just waiting the outcome. She has offered a stud fee to be paid in installments which we shall decline as we do not want to condone this or be associated with it, she has also been advised that our vet will bill her directly for fertility tests and infection tests

Well done for following through on this matter. Hope everything works out well for you.