I was at a breed club open show yesterday where one exhibitor showed a puppy in four classes and won each of them which was fine, they then got best dog and then went BIS, no problem with any of this. The same puppy was also entered in the special classes at the end of the show and low and behold does the exhibitor not bring it in for these classes!!!! My understanding of the rules is that a dog declared BIS should not go into any further competion at the show??

Needless to say there are a few unhappy competitors after this!!!!

Dogs declared BIS, RBIS and BPIS must not compete in further competion, its printed in the rules in the schedules

It depends as some special puppy sweepstake classes are counted as a seperate event
and you have to pay a different entry fee to that of say the open show entries and they
aren't classed as a repeat entry and they have a different judge.

So it maybe that they haven't 'broken' the rules as such - but perhaps it wasn't very sporting.
Unless of course that they are a newbie and don't understand the showing ettiquette that some
do withdraw their dogs if they have done well.

Or at some breed shows you can't withdraw from breed classes to remain unbeaten so it could be that
they were following this and didn't want their wins to be disallowed?

I guess you'd need to check with the schedule and the KC for clarification in this case?

Dogs winning one of the major awards for a show have to withdraw in order to remain unbeaten so unless this was classed as a separate show the BIS winner should not have continue to have been shown. Start by asking the clubs show manager about it.

Whatever the rules, I'm afraid I will never understand why it should be considered bad sportsmanship to WIN with a good dog. Where is the satisfaction in winning just because the best have been removed?

I have to agree with you Marianne why should they withdraw if allowed to compete!  Different judge possibly different decision - imagine if you did beat that dog how would you have felt :) very happy I suspect!  and if its the best there then it should win !  I certainly don't think its bad sportsmanship that they took part - sour grapes on the other competitors being grumpy at them competing in my eyes.

At our breed shows the specials are a separate show and have nothing to do with the main show - its for up and coming judges:

* SPECIAL AWARDS *
As a Club we endeavour to assist prospective judges to progress up the Judges Lists.
This has been done in the past by sponsoring supported entry shows but unfortunately
this has not been very effective. In an effort to support and promote our breed specialist
judges we have been given permission by the Kennel Club to run 'special awards' at
our own shows. Doing it this way means that we will hopefully have a captive audience
who will make a reasonable entry for the invited judge to go over and include on their
judges CV.
N.B. These 'special awards' are judged as an entirely separate entry from the main
show proper. IF YOUR DOG IS BEATEN IN THE SPECIAL AWARD CLASS IT IS NOT
CLASSSED AS A BEATEN DOG AND IS NOT DISQUALIFIED FROM CHALLENGING
IN THE MAIN SHOW. You can also enter dogs in the 'special awards that are not in
the main show i.e at a cost of £1.50. The 'special awards' are entirely arranged as a
method of promoting novice judges.
SO PLEASE DO SUPPORT AND ENTER - THANK YOU

12. Best in Show
a. The dog declared Best in Show is a dog which has competed and is unbeaten by any other dog exhibited
at the same Show. Best in Show must be selected from the exhibits declared Best of Sex providing they are
unbeaten winning dogs. Reserve Best in Show must be selected from the Best Opposite Sex and the Reserve
Best of Sex to the exhibit declared Best in Show. The dogs declared Best in Show and Reserve Best in Show
must not compete in any subsequent competition.
b. Withdrawal from other Competition: Dogs which become eligible for Best in Show maybe withdrawn from all
other competition other than breed classes prior to the competition for Best in Show as appropriate in order
to remain unbeaten. A dog beaten in competition for Best in Show may subsequently be exhibited in all
competition for which it was previously eligible. The dogs declared Best in Show and Reserve Best in Show
however, must not compete in any subsequent competition.
c. Proviso: For the purposes of this Regulation, dogs beaten in competition for Stud Dog, Brood Bitch, Progeny,
Brace and Team or a Special Award confined to a single breed, will not be considered to be beaten dogs.

The bad sportsmen/women are those who don't like being beaten!

You are either a " draw the raffle again as Ive already won enough"..... kind of a person
or
"Ive paid for it Im having it!" kind of person arent you? :-)

It is not a matter of bad sportsmanship but if the BIS is beaten at that show then it can't possible be the best so it is against the rules. A Best in Show must be just that and must remain unbeaten by any other dog at that show - the fact is you can't meet every other dogs before the BIS contest then you do not compete after winning it or it makes the BIS win null and void.

As someone has pointed out at some shows there are 'team type classes' entering these do not count as they are not being judged as indevidual dogs but as part of the team.

LOL tooolz, see your point but don't quite agree on the examples -I would (and do) say draw the raffle again. However many people are moaning about the current breed record holder in one of my breeds "stopping" any other dog from winning (including one of my own). I say, hand on heart, if it was me who had a young dog winning everything in sight, I would not retire him either, I'd enjoy the fruits of my own breeding. :) And I'm going to wait and watch with interest to see if those who moan one day end up with a big winner, and if THEY will stop showing it then. Some will I am sure, but all -probably not.

Slightly different Marianne.
If you had won all your classes and got BPIS AND BIS it seems a little churlish to not give all the other exhibitors a little chance of something!

As an aside....In both of my breeds we have the breed record holders still winning CCs from veteran. One is at every show and has around 80CCs.

There is no doubt this is contributing to lower entries.

I just wouldn't think like that -not that I've had a chance to be in the winning situation LOL, but I'm just being honest. To me, it would just spur me on to breed something better if the same dog kept winning. A friend of mine yesterday took BIS and then won both the veteran stakes and the champion stakes -with two different dogs. (One took BIS, the other both stakes.) Would that make a difference? Same exhibitor taking the lot, but not same dog? I don't think so.

Ive got no problem showing against them and its especially good when you beat them..... but.... 80CCs?

All I can think is we only have about 30 judges in our breed that can give tickets.

> As an aside....In both of my breeds we have the breed record holders still winning CCs from veteran. One is at every show and has around 80CCs.
>
> There is no doubt this is contributing to lower entries.

I don't see it that way, we've had very low entries at some shows but massive entries at others and I don't think it's down to if our breed record holder will be there or not (71 cc's at the moment)
The last 4 shows he was able to enter as he hadn't been awarded cc's previously by the judges, at 2 of the shows there were 200 plus entries, another 150+(weekday aswell!) but the last only had 96, he was at 2 of the shows & won the ticket at 1.

I say judges & fuel is the reason for low entries, the central & southern shows have the big entries and the northern shows are suffering because people can't afford to travel

I don't think poor entries it is down to multi CC holders either, it may put those off who have an expectation of winning a CC but I can't believe that everyone that enters a Championship show is really expecting to win a CC or even a class, hope yes, but tempered with a true knowledge of what is likely and hoping for what may be possible.

Those who are holders of multi awards do have off days and they are there to be beaten and however much joy you may feel at beating one it is nothing to the risk they are taking should you beat them, nothing like being the dog that beat so-&-so at such and such show to get you noticed.

Agree if we only entered hoping for a CC then why enter our raw youngsters puppies, veterans etc. 

We would all stick to Open shows until our swans had come into their own, and champ shows would only classify Open classes.

Yes I have won CC's with both puppies/Juniors and Veterans, but you rarely expect that.

Judges are a big factor for me now. We have a judge giving ccs to us n 2014 who has judged only half the dogs to get on the b list let alone give tickets and is a none specialist.  The kennel club are not going to be happy till they have killed shows off altogether.

Agreed.  You can spot the judges who are just adding to their tally of breeds a mile off :-( doesn't help when you have a breed club actively encouraging disinterested all rounders (because they happen to be mates) and not giving up and coming breed specialists the appointments grrr. 

The show manager of our breed champ show doesn't seek to see any issue with doing all the communication with the judge themselves and then showing under them and winning UNREAL! in fact the chairman or show manager should NEVER be showing at their own shows, it stinks!! And yes we are going to bring it up at the next AGM!

On the other note, the top winner in our breed at the mo has been shown very intensively and is the owners first dog that they have done any good with. This dog will be shown until it's geriatric but when this person was showing their previous dogs, they would openly moan and whinge about another dog beating them - even had the gall to ask me once when I was going to hurry up and retire my dog!!! Now the boots on the other foot, I wonder whether she'll ever retire her dog?! ha ha

Bad sportsmanship? It's rife in every breed. And dog showing will just become an elitist hobby one day, the average hobbyist will be priced out of it.

> I don't think poor entries it is down to multi CC holders either

I believe it is a factor when someone in your breed with a really nice dog is chasing a record. It's all very well for folk to say if your dog is good enough, it will win. It often doesn't work that way, 'off day' or not,  and people do get discouraged. Whether they should feel discouraged or not is another matter. It's not up to us to tell them how to spend their money. It is their choice, and their choice alone. If they are voting with their feet that's a shame for the whole breed, but I can see how it happens.

> I believe it is a factor when someone in your breed with a really nice dog is chasing a record.

Perhaps if RCC's started counting towards a champion title it woudl help.  Surely two or 3 RCC's (the judge does sign that they are worthy of the title and also they would get it if the CC winner were disqualified).

Or as with CACIB's if the winner is already an Int Ch the RCC winners are upgraded to a CACIB.

So if the CC winner is already a champion and RCC winner not then the RCC gets upgraded?

I think 3 RCCs under three different judges should equate to one full CC.

>Perhaps if RCC's started counting towards a champion title it woudl help.  Surely two or 3 RCC's (the judge does sign that they are worthy of the title and also they would get it if the CC winner were disqualified

I agree, I think it's time for change!

Ive always been of the opinion that the multi CC dogs were there to be beaten but Im now not so sure.

Ive got no personal axe to grind as Ive made up 3 champions while these breed record holders are piling them up......
but in some breeds it is pretty much a waste of time to enter in Open under many judges.
When a dog gets to 40+ CC it really does have a strong effect on many all rounders who see them in the groups week in week out and many weak or first time CC givers would have to be very strong to not capitulate.

Yes me too! Had the same debate with hubby - "cheap champions vs fair crack of the whip (often not possible under judges that haven't the courage to knock a 'face' even if the dog isn't the best on the day).

Multi CC winner domination isn't really a problem in our breed and I think it would be a bad idea for our breed as in my opinion it is easy to make a dog up (sadly too many unworthy champs IMO) BUT... I totally think a number of RCCs should = a CC in some breeds would be fair and a sure fire entry booster (especially in a certain working breed I can think of). I think we all need to lobby the CA or KC to review the idea!

The show was not an aside with the special classes they were part of the main show but judged after BIS and the same entry as an added entry with same dog etc.
I have no problem with this being the best dog and i also like this pup but just miffed that she went into these classes after BIS, may I add that I was not in these classes so have no axe to grind! Just wonder what KC would say regarding this as show management were not interested when told!

FAQs about Special Classes.

I am aware of these FAQ's but this was not special classes to allow up and coming judges etc it was after BIS and judged by the main judge who is a cc awarding judge as is the exhibitor who entered!!!

Surely at a breed club show there are no classes after BIS other than maybe stud dog, brood bitch progeny brace and Team, as these are not judged on the dog itself. 

Can you clarify what were these extra classes????

Will be interested in the reply Brainless, know some breeds have colour or coat type classes but if they are after the BIS and judged by the same judge I am really puzzled as to how or why the dog who went BIS was exhibited.

Yes and Bullterriers have/had 'head' classes etc

We have had classes after BIS..most are stakes classes & BIS/BPIS rule is applied

Yes, it is not that it is unusual to have classes after the deceleration of BIS but for the BIS to be eligible to be show if the classes are part of the same show is against the rules unless the class is one where the dogs are judged as a group or it is a handling class. So I am keen to know what these classes were.

Yes, I know it is against the rules for BIS & BPIS to compete which is what my previous post said!

It is more of less what every one has said which is why it would be nice to know what these classes were.

Hi all the classes which were held after BIS were special coloured classed i.e. special solid, B&W,G&W etc. The classes were entered at time of entry for main show I definately did not think BIS should have been eligeable to go into these after being declared BIS especially when they were being judged by the same judge.

Agree joec - what does the show secretary and or manager say about it.

It could throw up all sorts of possible problems - say the BIS was a bitch and red, so the only dog this bitch has met is the dog declared best dog who is black. But suppose in the class for reds the judge prefers a red dog to the red bitch where does that leave the winner of BIS - embarrassed.

Judges should judge the whole animal so it is possible that when the coat colour becomes the factor being judged that the animal declared BIS may not have the best red coat and therefore become beaten or are the judges supposed to ignore the colour.

Anyway I am sure this is against the KC rules and I think you should take this up with your club if only to stop them making the same mistake again.

> It could throw up all sorts of possible problems - say the BIS was a bitch and red, so the only dog this bitch has met is the dog declared best dog who is black. But suppose in the class for reds the judge prefers a red dog to the red bitch where does that leave the winner of BIS - embarrassed.
>
>

That couldn't really happen (if one judge officiates) as the Red dog was already beaten by the black dog, and then the red bitch beat him, so how could the judge prefer the Red dog over their BIS, though a judge can change their mind I suppose.

Your scenario of course can occur where more than one judge officiates, which is why dogs who win main awards at general shows can't compete further, as a different judge could judge differently.

To be honest Brainless I am not sure how "colour" classes are judged, if the coat is given a higher rating than in a normal breed class then it is possible a near perfect coat could tip the balance. If the black dog winner had say better movement than the red dog then he would win best dog but when set against the red bitch the judge may decide they prefer the dog to the bitch because of his better coat. But I don't know how to judge this sort of colour being as all I am asked to do is see if it is grey and the undercoat is clear :-)

Colour classes are judged the same as any other, the only  restriction on entering is coat colour. The same as if age or wins is a restriction on puppy or novice classes. :)

Think there are two different debates going on here, as I see it

A) is it wrong for a dog to compete after BIS - up to The owner really, can look like pot hunting, but at the end of the day showing is a competition.

B) is it wrong to have classes after BIS - no, many shows, both breed and general open do, plus possibly champ shows. These can be stakes, colour, handling, welfare, brace, team, progeny, anything that would not be eligible for BD, BB or BIS lineups.  They can be judged by the Same judge or a different judge

Colour classes are judged the same as any other, the only  restriction on entering is coat colour. The same as if age or wins is a restriction on puppy or novice classes. :-)
Quote selected text

As I said she should have a word with the show manager/secretary to stop the mistake happening again.

All i want to say is as a PUPPY it must have been Kn*****ed by the end of the show poor thing

For all who have commented on this topic, it was mentioned to show secretary but as they were new to this did not really have a clue and when pointed out to someone more experienced was told it would sort itself out!! I just think that they will lose what little exhibitors they had due to bad feeling. I totally agree that a show is a competition and if you are beaten then that is all fine and accepted but to go against the rules was really the point I originally asked in case I had got it totally wrong! As has been said poor puppy must have been shattered and yes I think he was!!!!

> All i want to say is as a PUPPY it must have been Kn*****ed by the end of the show poor thing

Not really much difference to an all breed champ show with a puppy group?
Puppy wins MPD, waits for dog challenge, wins BPD, then waits for bitches to be done to challenge BPB, dog wins BPIB and has to wait around for puppy group, which sometimes are way after the adult groups.

and at club shows you'd stay to the end anyway.

But would not have done ALL those classes OMG!!!

Depends on the breed, could be only a small number so very little time standing about.
Whereas it could be my breed and potentailly 20+ in MP so my little guys would be fed up.

and of course seen dogs will settle at the back or in a corner, relaxing until the rest of the class are seen.

well my puppy wouldnt rest for long  he,s so full of beans