Wesley is 15 weeks old and just isn't getting the whole going outside to do his business malarky.

He has had some tummy troubles (see my other post on health boards) so we have been cutting him some slack and trying not to expect miracles from him. However, this is now much, much better and his poop is mainly "normal" consistency now.

We take him outside at least every hour or two and especially after sleeping/eating/playing and he will probably do something a little more than half of the time. However, he doesn't seem to ask to go out when he needs to do something outside of these times - he will just go to the toilet wherever he is at the time.  Obviously I do watch for the signs as much as possible and whip him outside if he starts to go, but it's impossible to watch him every second (especially when he's just been in the garden and you're not expecting it!). Whenever he goes to the back door, we take him out - but now he has started doing this and then not doing anything - he just wants to go out! Whenever he does his wees or poops outside we give him loads of praise and reward him with a treat - but he is so blinking clever he has now started squatting, getting the praise and the treat - but we have discovered he isn't actually doing anything!!

It's been 17 years since I've had a puppy in the house (it's taken me years to persuade my husband) and I'm not sure whether my expectations of a 15 week old puppy are too high?? Should he have it sussed by now? He does know it's wrong I think as when he's done something he shouldn't he goes and gets in his bed and won't look at me.

I don't really want to go down the crate training route which I know many people use.

Thanks for any advice/tips you can give.

If you don't want to use a crate, this is how it is.  No one can supervise a loose puppy 24/7 - no one.  And when you are not supervising, and he goes inside, he is learning that it's ok to go inside. 

To be more clear:  A puppy toileting inside is not just a 'neutral' event.  It is actively shaping and encouraging the very behaviour you don't want.  For every toilet inside, you're looking at another many days of toilet training before your pup is trained.  When 2 accidents happen inside, that's a week more.  And so on.  The unwanted behaviour (toileting indoors) then has to be de-trained - you're not just training the pup what you DO want him to do, you end up having to extinguish the behaviour you DON'T want.  It is much more work.

The use of a crate is so that when you can't supervise your pup, he goes in the crate.  He won't toilet, you can do what you need to do, and then take him out immediately.  The less accidents which happen indoors, the less will happen in the future. 

>However, he doesn't seem to ask to go out when he needs to do something outside of these times - he will just go to the toilet wherever he is at the time. 

Very very few pups will ask, my own dogs haven't asked to go out before they are 1yr old and they have been clean indoors from 9wks.  Yes, you are expecting too much if you expect him to ask.

>Whenever he goes to the back door, we take him out - but now he has started doing this and then not doing anything - he just wants to go out!

That is because you are waiting for him to tell you (and expecting that he will - when he won't).  Instead YOU should be taking him out frequently - as it sounds like you are.  Not expecting him to indicate it.  If you do ever get worried that he wants to go out, put the lead on him and take him to one spot in the garden and wait there with him. Don't let him go running about and having loads of fun - because then he really will want to go outdoors just to play.

>Whenever he does his wees or poops outside we give him loads of praise and reward him with a treat - but he is so blinking clever he has now started squatting, getting the praise and the treat - but we have discovered he isn't actually doing anything!!

This is because you've rewarded that:  You need to watch if anything comes out when he toilets (difficult in the dark, but possible besides that) and only to reward if something comes out.  If he squats and you still reward, then you're rewarding him for squatting not toileting - and squatting is what he will do. 

> I'm not sure whether my expectations of a 15 week old puppy are too high?? Should he have it sussed by now?

Your expectations are not too high in terms of age, no - many pups are toilet trained by 9wks.  However your pup can only learn what you teach him and if you are not a good teacher and you allow him to learn to toilet indoors, then that is what he is learning instead.  If you want to get him trained, use a crate. 

Saying you want your pup to be toilet trained but you don't want to use a crate is (to me) like saying you want to play tennis but not with a racket.

Those first few weeks after bringing a pup home you need to concentrate really hard on its house training and if he performs in the house it is because you were not observing him enough.

A crate/puppy pen is not a place of punishment it is somewhere safe for the pup to be when you can't watch them fully, they are less likely to soil a crate as long as they are taken out regularly. Hourly trips out,sooner if needs be are probably the longest you can expect him to wait at that age and if he doesn't perform then wait 10 mins and try again either keeping him with you and watching closely or crating him if you can't.

Some breeds take longer to house train, I had only had cockers before getting my first dachsie and it had been 15.5 yrs since my cocker at the time had been a pup, I thought I was just rusty at the house training[took 3 weeks off work to settle him in]till I joined a dachsie forum and found it was a common trait, with going back to basics for a prelonged period and concentrating on him[live alone so no one looking to be fed etc.] I got it sorted.

They do get crafty but you have to be craftier still and don't reward without a result, don't let them hare round the garden till they have done their business, that way he will learn that toileting is the first thing on the agenda as soon as they set foot out the door and any fun comes after.

Be patient and consistant, don't tell him off as it isn't his fault and clean up using biological washing liquid to get rid of the enzymes present that cause the smell that draws him back to the same spot.

I clean up with disinfectant is that doing the same as the bio washing liquid- I do us a disinfectant that's meant for dogs/kennels

None of mine actually ask to go out we (as a breed that can be vocal I do nto want to encourage barkign for attention) simply provide toiletting opportunities throughout the day and clean up accidents until they are mature enough to hold on.

My current pup has just turned 5 months (yesterday) and inadvertently we have trained her to use her crate as a litter tray :) 

If we are out she will pee in there on the shredded paper which we used when they were in a puppy pen in the same place.

I had considered putting the crate away, but I am finding it easier to let her use it this way if she needs to, than having to mop the floor, move the fridge etc.

I plan to stop putting the paper in the crate shortly, and see if putting bedding in it will stop her using it, but she obviously cannot hold long enough yet.

It depends on the disinfectant.  I'd suggest you clean firstly with bio washing liquid, since it digests the enzymes in the wee which make it smell like wee/poo to dogs.  Then if you want to, after that, use the disinfectant to wipe over so you know it's hygienically clean.

I have to disagree with this, I have housetrained 6 puppies and never resorted to using a crate to do so. In that time I have had about 3 poos and a few more wees. it takes a watchful eye and knowledge of behaviour to ensure that they are taken out at the optimal time for them to perform 'in the correct place'. Yes this means sleeping on the sofa for a couple of weeks to be able to react through the night but it is worth it.

Maybe different breeds are less predictable but with retrievers it is obvious when they want out. It has also helped that most have come from family environments that have done their bit to start housetraining early on. Mine ask out in different ways, one will sing and dance about while another will sit in front of you panting.

I have a new puppy and we take her outside every hour to toilet, and after a sleep and 20 minutes after eating, but she has quite a few accidents in the house still. She is only 9 weeks old. Am I doing it all right?

You're doing fine. :-) You should expect accidents for several weeks yet, but they'll become fewer and fewer as she gets the idea of what's expected. What you need to do is make a mental note of what was happening/what she was doing just before she has an accident in the house, and make sure that it doesn't happen again. I know that when my own have had accidents it's been due to me not paying enough attention and not being aware of where pup was and what she was doing at all times, so my fault!

Always praise when she does it in the right place, and never scold when she gets it wrong, especially if you don't see her doing it.

I recognise the signs, well often enough. But it doesnt give me enough time to take her outside. But sometimes she goes to the front door if she needs to go outside, and we have had her less than a week so i think she is learning!

Don't wait for signs, take her out frequently without any signs, and reward with a treat afterwards. 

praising her would be enought wouldnt it?

To start with using treats gives them a reward for getting it right, I use tiny cubes of strong cheddar kept for just such training,lots of taste in a small amount,sliced up peperami has the same affect,you need to give it mid flow to start with so they connect the two things then OTT praise when they have finished, as they become reliable then the treats become random,the pup will perform as they don't know if they will get one that time or not.

Trips outside should be hourly, more frequent if there is still accidents, make a note of how soon after eating/drinking they need to go and that will help,don't restrict water, it won't help.

As has been said any accidents are due to human error,those first couple of weeks need to be spent on just house training with some collar and lead work inside and basic commands, helps with bonding too.

Enjoy they are not pups for long

If she's small enough, you can also pick her up if you see the signs and know you only have 2 seconds - she's unlikely to wee while you are holding her. Of course she'll take a minute or two to remember what she was about to do once you do get her out. And as you are already doing, take her out frequently whether or not you see the signs. :-)

My pup is only a couple of weeks shy of 6 months and is a small breed & notoriously hard to toilet train ... she will only be classed as a "small" for her breed too, so I wasn't expecting miracles and the overnight wee seems to have taken an age to get rid off but I am so pleased the last few nights have been dry (might be the cold and she doesn't want to get out of her snuggly bed lol). 

Daytime has been fine, of course we have had accidents but I too have been making sure I put her out around every hour.  She doesn't usually give me any signals still, certainly no running off to the back door although I only use the same door to let her in and out but I'm not clock watching anymore either so think she is just maturing nicely.  Good luck, they certainly aren't puppies for very long :)

Oh right! well i shall start giving her some treats then, today was a particually bad day for accidents in the house! just suppose i need to give her time. We would have only had a her a week tomorrow, so she isnt doing too badly!

If you've not been rewarding with treats, then you haven't really been training the puppy - since you are not manipulating the outcome of the behaviour and ensuring that it is more rewarding for toilets to happen outside than inside.  It is then just coincidence where they happen...

> If you've not been rewarding with treats, then you haven't really been training the puppy

I have never used treats for toilet training.  I'm not saying you shouldn't just pointing out I do not feel it is essential by any means.
I have always used a command word.  Regular trips out and the introduction of the word every time the puppy performs together with plenty of praise.  Before many days have passed I have found this can be converted into a command.  Not only have I found this a very speedy way of training but also helps really reduce "waiting" time in the garden :)

>praising her would be enought wouldnt it?
> If you've not been rewarding with treats, then you haven't really been training the puppy

I'd say that these statements depend a little on the dog, and a little on the handler.  Praise and reward will always be necessary but the handler needs good timing and must choose the most appropriate reward for their dog.

Verbal praise is a vital part of your training tool kit and choosing the right "woohoo" tone is important - have a practise and see what gets your dogs attention the best.  Find some good rewards, many dogs are motivated by food so try a selection of treats such as cheese ham, liver cake, cooked chicken, garlic sausage etc to see which your dog likes.  I find it useful to keep these in a small tupperware box with a few dry, ordinary biscuit based treats so that the smells and flavours combine - it also means your dog stays interested as he/she never knows what is coming out next.  Some breeds of dog aren't so fussed about food and you'll need to look at toy and play based reward options.  For these you can try tuggy rope toys, balls, squeaky toys etc to see what works.

At 9 weeks your dog is more than ready to start learning and if you don't shape the events and offer rewards then he/she will pick up all sorts of ideas about what is is ok to do.  Puppies are like sponges and every experience, good or bad, is an opportunity to learn.

Housetraining is generally much more about you than it is about the puppy - it's incredibly easy to lose track of time and at this age you really do spend an inordinate amount of time in the garden. 

Use a cue word whilst your pup is peeing in the right place - you could try something like be quick or get busy.  The minute your pup stops peeing then come in with an appropriate reward.  In the early days food may well be the answer but watch out for the greedy guts!  Some dogs will spend their time watching your hands and pockets and forget to listen to what you want!

My preference for toilet training my dogs is
a) always return to the same place
b) use a lead or fencing (I use a pee pen) to contain the dog in that place
c) use a cue word as soon as they start to pee
c) lots of verbal praise and a pat
d) a boring treat
e) release and play
f) a short training session sit, come etc with better more exciting treats
g) back indoors for a kip      ...both of us, puppies are sooo exhausting!!

Have a look at The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - an excellent book for novice and experienced owners alike with lots of information about your puppy's needs and effective training exercises from housetraining to 'stay' and everything in between

Use a cue word whilst your pup is peeing in the right place - you could try something like be quick or get busy

Advisable NOT to use 'good girl/boy'......................Visitors come in........fuss pup and say ........good girl/boy .......soggy shoes

Willow is 3 months.
We started putting her in a crate overnight 3 weeks ago and we haven t had a single accident overnight since and only the occasional day time wee. I am not an expert, but I think you have to set them up for success. This means putting puppy in the crate if you're not supervising her. ( A good idea for lots of other reasons apart from the house training). She invariably goes straight to sleep as soon as she's crated. As soon as she wakes up outside she goes and doesn t come back in till she's performed. I don t give treats everytime, just praise. Willow now wees within 30 secs of going out everytime. She loves her crate and is only in there when we can t give her the attention she needs and deserves. Good luck!!

Would Tesco anti bacterial floor wipes be any good?  Or do they not remove the traces of scent that the puppy would pick up? Or would I need to get one of those sprays that are made for cleaning up after pets?

Just thought I'd say I found the above training posts very useful.

Something else, he has paper in his crate along with his bed (good distance between them) and he's after laying on the (clean) paper. Why? And what to do?

I would never encourage a puppy to toilet in his crate by putting paper down in there.  A crate isn't a playpen.  One of the major uses of a crate is that it will hopefully encourage the puppy to hold on for as long as possible and NOT toilet in there.  If you can't take him out frequently enough and he needs to go to the toilet, then either leave the crate door open and some paper outside it - or use a playpen rather than a crate.

And no, anti-bacterial wipes do not remove the smell of puppy wee (as far as I know - prob depends on the wipe).  Instead, just buy savers/value/budget bio washing liquid and dilute with a little water.  Much cheaper too.

Is it bio liquid for washing clothes?

I put the paper in for night time for when he might have an accident. We had to go out today for about an hour so he was in the crate then too. But not for any longer than that as he loves to be on the go. He held on til I got back then he went on some paper that was out in the kitchen.

> Is it bio liquid for washing clothes?

That's the stuff! :)
Another thing that works well is Simple Solution (easy to get now Wilkinsons sell it), I wouldn't be without it but it's appreciably more expensive than bio washing liquid.

I wouldn't put paper in the crate, even if you have to go out and are worried he will need to go - better to leave the crate door open and some paper just outside it.  Once he gets in the habit of toileting in the crate, it is a very hard habit to break and he may well just go on toileting in there...

That's great. There's some of that in the house but its never used because a family member has eczema, so we always use the non bio.

'I put the paper in for night time for when he might have an accident. We had to go out today for about an hour so he was in the crate then too. But not for any longer than that as he loves to be on the go. He held on til I got back then he went on some paper that was out in the kitchen.'

Two things I would think about here.
1. The idea of being in a crate is to encourage him to be clean and to let you know when he wants to go out (in the garden, to be clean). If you put paper in, you're saying to the pup it's ok to pee/poo in the house. How is the pup to know that it's ok to be dirty overnight but he is meant to be clean (and give signals) during the day?

2. I would have taken the pup straight out to be clean when I got back, why was there paper on the floor? Again, conflicting messages for the pup as I take it you do want him to use the garden and not toilet in the house for the rest of his life? 

My new pup is taken out to the garden from the word go. It just makes more sense to me and there is no confusion/conflict for the pup as he learns that the garden is the only place I want him to toilet.

Exactly marisa, that's what I've been trying to say...

The breeder said he's paper trained but I'm not sure how to get him on to the next stage of going outside.

I took him out first thing this morning with my other dog thinking seeing the other dog pee outside might encourage him to copy. It worked this morning but not later on. Later on in the day I took him out a while after he ate and he looked as if he might want to go, but he didn't. Then he went on the paper when he came in. I had to bring him in that time because he was shivering, we were out ages and I was afraid of him getting a chill. I'll have to get him a coat tomorrow. I don't know how he'll feel about wearing it.

He's afraid of going out in the dark too, and unfortunately I don't have a proper light outside, only a very bright torch, but I'm sure I'll sure he'll soon get used to that.

Remove all the paper - while he's given the option to go inside in the warm and dry, what is the incentive to do it outside? You will need to stay out there with him (no other dogs atm, too distracting) and, if he doesn't go after a reasonable period of time, put him back in his crate and try again in 30 mins or so. Keep doing this until he performs and then make a fuss of him for being such a clever boy.

Agree with marisa - and give him a treat after he goes outside too, will make a bigger impact on him.  He will start to save them up to go outside.