What is everyones feeling on this? I only have one bitch now who is under veteran age, she won her third CC at Richmond this year. I want to enter a local open show that we support every year, but is entering a Champion the done thing?

Why not the judges at open shows need to get their hands on quality dogs or they will not be ready to move up when the time comes. If you are the breed I think you are then no one will mind in the slightest and you may well not be the only Ch. there.

An Open show is open to all, whether they are champions or not, so please enter her. You will get to meet your 'doggy' friends, and enjoy a day out, as will your dog.

The majority of judges at open shows are on the learning curve, and how will they learn what a good specimen looks like if they never get to put their hands on one? Not only that, it gives people like me a chance to beat you ;-)

A champion means that at least 3 judges have liked your dog well enough to give the challenge certificate on that particular day. How many judges thought that there was one better? I'm not really asking, but just trying to give you the idea that you may not win on the day :-)

I have no worries about her being beaten, decided to enter, even though i have just realised the judge gave her a BOB early last year. Still different day, different dogs.  Just trying to work out which oldies to dust the cobwebs off, one for the Veteran Stakes and one for AV Veteran.

If you are going on the avatar picture Jackie, i doubt you would even guess the breed, (and there are no champions in the country) LOL

To be honest I was looking at the avatar but had no idea what the breed was except that it was a spitz but was changing my mind as to which one by the second.

Frowned on in my breed except in veteran, even my single CC winner had comments muttered when I took him to open shows, and I had no other dog to show at that time! But it seems stupid to me, as others have said, how will the newer judges learn what a quality dog looks like if they never see one!

There would be few showing opportunities if we didn't show at Open show, not to mention Open shows are a lot cheaper to enter.

I wish more people would as I think judges need to get their hands on good dogs. 

As a slight aside, I am always quite amused by many open show critiques waxing lyrical about how fabulous all the dogs under them are on the day :-)

Interesting, the differences in breeds.

I think it would be frowned on in my breed too. I certainly wouldn't dream of taking my champion girl in breed classes at general open shows, can't even see me taking her to breed club open shows when she goes in to veteran classes next year.

Mind you, champions are fairly rarely shown in my breed really, although it is becoming more common - presumably because there are very few big kennels with a constant stream of upcoming dogs and people generally have less dogs to show. I have only taken mine to the odd champ show since she got her title. When she is old enough for veteran, I will enjoy the classes and take her out as I please, but only to champ shows.

Very limiting really, she is my only show dog (not for want of trying!), so I've been to lots of shows dogless.

Did think I might have a play at some Champion Stakes classes at open shows, but no-one seems to run them any more.

M.

Lol I had to laugh Sarah at a recent open show critique raving about the status of this dogs parents and how well he'd done them recently too!! Actually showed more of what a twit this judge was than anything else the way he rabbited on and said little about the actual dog!!

Also to note not all champions are of good quality I know plenty which fail to meet the breed standard in so many ways it's laughable, yet they have achieved this all because of who they are and how well they can handle!!

> I know plenty which fail to meet the breed standard in so many ways it's laughable

There is no such thing as a perfect dog and those placed further down the line (or not at all) can always find something to complain about with the winner, be careful believing all of this ;) It's usual for new people to showing to complain about someone winning when their dog has this or that fault, then when they gain a bit more experience they realise that actually it was a very good dog - I've done it myself!

If people don't want to show against champions they need to go to Limit or Companion shows.  Open show by their very name are open to all.

These days finances being what they are I only want to do a show a month so I stick to mainly champ shows as there are little enough of us for meaningful competition.  I only attend a few open shows a  year, but when I used to do an Open show a month of course I showed what I had champion or not.

As a breed we have a top heavy entry, if the champions and veterans were not shown that would be half our entry gone.

If we get open shows scheduling classes and there is only one class or something like puppy or Junior or even Post graduate I won;'t go, as I don't want to take just one dog.

With numerically small breeds I think societies are better off scheduling Special Yearling and Open, and if three classes add Veteran.  That gives a class for under two's over two's and over 7's.

There is no such thing as a perfect dog

Too true, just as there is now such thing as a perfect judge but on balance the person doing the judging has a better chance of getting it right than the disappointed exhibitor sitting at the ring side. And the chances are the champion dogs and bitches have something to offer the trainee judge who will in time, if they make the grade, be handing out CCs themselves. So surely it is important that champions are entered at open shows, we complain about our judges being inadequately trained and then in the next breath say they should not have the opportunity to handle proven quality dogs.

People need to think before the criticise those dogs who are made up and also before they discourage these dogs from entering the open show. Lets not forget that to become a champion a dog has to win under 3 different people but are still there to be beaten and it shows a certain amount to courage to risk that so good luck to those who are unafraid to show their best at the Open show.

My point isn't out of jealousy or comparing my dogs to those who are at the top. I've sat there read the standard watched judges and listened and learnt from those who have been in breeds 30 plus years, very few dogs at the top don't deserve it but most do!!
I don't have any issue with champs being shown at open shows, makes no odds to me at all...open shows need more entries so don't think people shoul be frowned upon if they how a ch at an open show!!

very few dogs at the top don't deserve it but most do!!

Have you actually judged these dogs that you say do not deserve their championship status? Or are you basing your opinion third hand so to speak.

I wont show mine at open shows, its not done in my breed. I wont even show my RCC winner as she has over double the number of junior warrant points ( only the bare minimum at open shows) and it would just be seen as greedy.

it would just be seen as greedy.

Greedy for what, not bits of cardboard surely.

Points.

But surely that is why some have to be gained at open shows it was supposed to help the entry at open shows so B list judges could learn their trade and the breeds who are short on classes could be classified because of the support of the larger numbered breeds.

I didnt say it was logical. Nor did I say that it was right minded, caring, forward thinking people with dog showing or even their own breed at the forefront of their mind, who felt this way.
It tends to be desperate folk, trawling around trying to get a stud book number on an inferior specimen before the age of 18 months.
Its all about the obsession with  'The Crufts qualifyer'.
It seems to be the be all and end all for most people these days.

I didnt say it was logical

Then I really think it is about time that those of us who are in the dog 'game' because we like dogs and wanted the best for them started to ignore the unthinking and got on with doing what will forward our breeds and the 'sport' of showing best.

If I take my Champ to an open show I enter the Champion Stakes - rather than breed classes. A lot more open shows are scheduling them now and it is satisfying to know, if you are placed, that it means something and you are still supporting your local show.
With regard to giving "up and coming" judges a chance to go over a quality dog - well dogs aren't born with a "Champion" title. I don't suppose there are many of us with champions that didn't take them to open shows before they gained that award.
If you have a champion - you've done it, you've achieved the accolade we are all after. Keep rolling up at open shows put those who are just starting out or with young quality dogs, off. This seriously will kill the open show entries. So committees put Champion stakes on and if possible with sponsors.

This would depend on your breed - in ours your may get 3 non-champion dogs entered in say 3 breed classes and 6 in the Champion class - if this happens all that will happen is the show society will drop the breed classes one by one until the breed is not classified at all - much better if the Champion dogs enter the breed class giving a total of 9 they can then enter the Champion class if they wish. Better for the show, better for the breed, better for the judge.

Edit to add that when the numbers for a breed drop less care is taken to find the right judge, so a judge that is doing another breed is given them and the numbers drop still further. To run a successful show you need classes, enough breed entries and the right judge.

This seriously will kill the open show entries.

At most open shows that bothered to put on Malinois classes, they would get something like 40-50 % Champions entered. Without them, there might not be any entries at all. We're now in the position where there are virtually no open shows at all with breed classes for us as they have all been taken off -and it's certainly not because people worried about Champions.

As long as an Open show is an Open show it should remain to be open for all.

I won't enter stakes classes -it's pointless because they are nothing more than a glorified AVNSC class -which tends to stand for any variety not seriously considered. You get judges that don't even recognise the breed in front of them. Plus they are usually at the end of the day so you have to hang around all day. No thanks.

I'm not currently showing any Champion as I've just retired mine (she just got too old -much as she'd love to still go to the shows), but it won't bother me in the slightest to see any at open shows, in either of my breeds.

Personally I have no issue with anyone showing a Ch at an Open show, I have recently beaten a SH CH in my breed class with a young bitch. However I think the statement as to how a judge will ever know quality if they don't get their hands on these Champions is a bit disrespectful to other exhibitors as it infers the rest of us are inferior. Not the case of course but some judges will be intimidated by the exhibitor showing a Champion in their classes if they know the dog as I've seen it happen before.

>However I think the statement as to how a judge will ever know quality if they don't get their hands on these Champions is a bit disrespectful to other exhibitors as it infers the rest of us are inferior.

It's the same as not allowing champions to compete for CCs; it means the cream of the competition has been removed so you end up with 'semi-skimmed' champions; the 'best of the rest'. If you don't have champions competing at open shows you have the same situation.

However I think the statement as to how a judge will ever know quality

Don't think it was put like that but if it was that is not what was meant, what was meant was that trainee judges need to see the full range of exhibits no need to remove the proven dogs they are there to be assessed and can be beaten.

Yes there may be several quality dogs within their entry but they will have to choose the animals they liked, and if they have rejected a Champion they will know why.  And it is equally true that you can judge a number of shows and never see a dog that is above the average and yes that may include a Champion.

The bigger the selection a trainee judge can assess the better they will learn what is important and what is not. It should not matters what a dog has achieved it is up to the judge to make their own mind up but they must have a choice.

The bigger the selection a trainee judge can assess the better they will learn what is important and what is not. It should not matters what a dog has achieved it is up to the judge to make their own mind up but they must have a choice.

And they need to know WHY they made the choice they did, and be able to explain it. I have seen a few clangers in my time, such as when a Champion has been beaten by a dog far inferior, and on one occasion a working line dog (totally different to show lines in many ways, and this particular one VERY oversized with many faults) getting high placings in the group even. Interestingly, on none of those occasions did a critique appear in the dog papers.  Which really makes you wonder if the judge read the catalogue afterwards and thought "Oh dear, oops!" The judges that DID know why they preferred an untitled dog to a titled one all seem to provide their critiques......

Probably a good reason for not entering champions is one judge doing a whole bunch of breeds they know little about.

Whilst stewarding I see some sights I can tell you.
Im sick of being asked by judges what breeds I have and then sneakily asking me which of their class winners normally win well.
In some cases they have thrown the good ones out.

People now take on a great raft of breeds they only 'know' from reading their standard and as we know this often does little to explain 'type'.
I watched one man tackle my breed where, from a decent entry, came up with the reverse order in every class with BOB and BP going to well marked pets. More common that it would seem in these days of cutting costs and inviting one judge to do loads of breeds.

More common that it would seem in these days of cutting costs and inviting one judge to do loads of breeds.

Indeed. Speaking to a few good friends that are judging, they say they now have no choice but to take on as many breeds within one group as possible,  and ideally more than one group, as without being able to do several, they will not get the appointments and can never progress up to ticket level. Sad situation. I once showed both Malinois and Papillons under the same unknown judge -that was a waste of time for sure! But what can you do -when you have a breed like mine where open show classes are just vanishing, you need to support those few shows that DO put them on -whether the judge is good or not........

Yes I do sypathise with those who have numerically small entries at open shows and I think that is fast becoming more and more of us. It's a case of dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
However, a tale of caution; I know an exhibitor who took their CH's (with cc in double figures and also CH show group winner) to open shows. Lets just say nobody else bothers to go to these local shows anymore because the result was always the same and yes the breed has been taken off. Not nice when you want to take your youngsters out or are after that Junior Warrant.
I judged at a ringcraft match night a few years ago and the match winner came up afterwards to tell me their dog had 7 CC. I don't understand what pleasure that gave them.
I feel it is the responsibility of those who have had the pleasure of being at the top to encourage new or occasional exibitors, without more numbers there won't be any open shows and fewer new exhibitors going to CH shows.

> I judged at a ringcraft match night a few years ago and the match winner came up afterwards to tell me their dog had 7 CC. I don't understand what pleasure that gave them.
>

CC winners arent allowed at matches...of course you didnt know until you had judged but the owner knew! Quite often other club members know roughly what other members dogs are doing, so surprised it was allowed to enter!