I have just bought a puppy who's 10 weeks old and ive noticed that on the pedigree the mother of my pup is the result of a daughter to father mating. Does this pose any health problems or any problems for that matter for my pup ???

If this is a kennel club registered pup this close level of inbreeding is not allowed anymore.

Whether inbreeding will cause a problem depends on what bad traits each parent had, (especially recessive ones) any they had genetically  in common are more likely to manifest in the offspring (your puppy) because of the closeness of the relationship.

The reason that inbreeding was used when breeds were developed was to fix desired characteristics, but of course bad characteristics could be fixed just as easily.

No sensible person would deliberately mate this close.

The ban on this close inbreeding is very recent; it's worth remembering that, barring random mutations which are totally unpredictable, offspring can only inherit the genes of the parents. If the parents have no major faults or health issues then, however closely related they are, the offspring can't inherit any.

The ban may be recent but I know of no-one who would deliberately have bred that close, making the ban rather academic.

You are quite right no-one can tell whether such a close mating may result in problems, and whether a complete outcross may give disastrous results.

The close relationship means that traits shared by the parents, and of course we are talking about the mother who is the result of the close breeding not the pup.

As regards the puppy purchased is the sire closely related to the mother?  If not then the chances of inheriting common faults or good points are reduced.

The puppies inbreeding coefficient (COI) can be checked on the kennel Club mate select pages.

I get very confused by COIs and the 'close inbreeding' ban, because you can register litters which are more closely related than parent/offspring matings.

> because you can register litters which are more closely related than parent/offspring matings.

That is due to lost of background inbreeding and of course if the dogs in your pedigree are UK registered from the year dot compared to the offspring of frequent imports the COI's will appear higher.

We rarely get a COI on more than 5 complete generations, though the calculations do go back around 18 generations for my breed.

My highest is Inka at 13.7% on a half brother to half sister mating (both grand-sires imports).  If they had no other relatives in common it would have been 12.5%

The ban may be recent but I know of no-one who would deliberately have bred that close,
I do know someone who I consider very knowledgable, experienced and responsible who knows her own lines very well after 40 years and has done what others may consider a very close mating.  Her thinking is 'better to use known quality and healthy lines to consolidate than to bring in the unknown with an outcross" and I have to agree.  Having said that her basic mantra was once in, twice out. :)
As always, regulations penalise the responsible because of the irresponsible - why dog licences are a waste of time!
So many people think that just by outcrossing the progeny are going to be healthy but in fact just because the parents don't share relatives doesn't mean that they don't share similar faults and health problems.
To me the secret to good breeding is to KNOW the ancestors, their qualities and their faults not all this co-efficient 'ology' :(  It might give you the probability but not the potential problems.

Pomalady, if you are concerned then you should ask your breeder why she did the mating.  The answer will tell you if there was a good reason or just an accident or convenience.

>Pomalady, if you are concerned then you should ask your breeder why she did the mating.

The breeder of the mother of this pup; not necessarily the pup's breeder. :-)

>That is due to lost of background inbreeding

That's what's so silly about the blanket ban on registration; if I'd mated my Harry to his mother (now a banned mating) the COI of the litter would be 25.8. However an accepted uncle/niece mating gives a COI of 28.6. It seems that the ban is based on perceived morals and not scientific logic. The potential mating I'm considering would give a COI of 12.4.

> mother of my pup is the result of a daughter to father mating.

My first thought is, I suspect the person owned both & its an accident. I have to say, in over 47 years there has been no unplanned litters in our house. If there had been an unplanned mating here such as this, it would have been stopped. There will always be those who say 'I didnt know she was in whelp'!!!

Would have thought that providing there has been health testing taking place for the last few generations then there is unlikely to be anything lurking but if concerned then ask the breeder of the dam why such a close mating was done there is, in all probability, a very good reason for the breeder to have made such a decision.

I did have an accidental mating (my fault due to giving unclear instructions to the girl who worked for me) .  I did not find out about it (she was scared to tell me) till it was obvious the bitch was in pup.  This was a Father/Daughter mating and at 6 weeks when I realised too late to have mismate injection (we are going back about 12-15 years I think).  The sire was a top winner, the litter produced 6 bitch pups and we kept one and endorsed and pet homed the rest.  Interestingly, my boy was tested as having Cataract about 1 year after this,  this is a breed notoriously difficult to pinpoint inheritance in HC (we haven't even got a DNA test after 10 years research!)  so I was very concerned about the possibility of the litter inheriting HC, the liklehood should have been high - and not a single one went down with it, thank heaven!  In all respects the litter lived as long as expected from the breed - I think 1 or 2 are still with us.  No incidence of any health problems apart from the usual age related.  I never worked out the COI, but the dam of the bitch was unrelated for at least 5 generations to the sire.

So I agree, not something which should be considered now, but not necessarily a reason for the OP to panice about possible health issues in her pup.  Inbreeding done repeatedly is where the problems come in, although having said that I seem to remember that  Ch Ozmylion Mystifiaction after going BIS at Crufts in '97 was very closely linebred - can't remember the percentage but the dogs papers publish the pedigrees and the degree was very high.

Does this pose any health problems or any problems for that matter for my pup ???

No pup should ever be bought today without the breed related health tests shown.

If you have bought a pup with no health test results shown from parents or pups ( depending on breed) then the fact there has been a close mating may well be irrelevant anyway, lines should only be bred from with no damaging hereditary genes, sometimes even close matings may cause no health problems if the lines are good.

Even though that has been stopped by the KC mainly due to the mass of irresponsible breeding by amateurs breeding 'in' problems due to not checking for health issues, doesn't necessarily mean when the daughter - father was done in your line it was done by an amateur breeder, they may have been breeding in or out something from health to dog shape/type?

You can sweat if you bought a pup with no relevant breed health tests shown. (if you go to our breeders pages it will tell you the tests that should have been done for your breed :-) )  If the pup came from health tested parents I wouldn't worry about the close mating at all.

>Ch Ozmylion Mystifiaction after going BIS at Crufts in '97 was very closely linebred

Very, very closely linebred indeed.  And after the BIS win there were people who would only use studs from this kennel.  Even in more recent years, when I have been looking at pedigrees for a potential Yorkie stud myself I have been absolutely amazed at some of the matings that took place. 

They were obviously good quality but did the dogs have problems or did the breeder know his lines? :) *wink wink*

wonder if pomlady is still with us ?

I'm not either, lol

I'm not either, lol

Your not either what Ruby Roo?

still with you on this thread .... I don't have the knowledge to follow.  Interesting reading though, and one day I am sure it will make more sense to me, I do get the basics but I now have a new (to me) breed and if I do decide to breed ina couple of years time, I will be needing the breeder I bought from to babysit me (he is aware of this too).  

I meant was she still reading as he question was answered - hope so. Let's also hope her pup remains fit and healthy as nothing can be changed for this pup

Fingers crossed the little one lives a long, happy & healthy life

Ozmilion Mystification COI 39.4%

I would be more concerned if the very close relative mating had continued for the generation the OP's pup is from, I am presuming an outcross or more distant relative sired it