Has anyone else noticed that we have an influx of people who think that the best way to breed dogs is to buy a dog and a bitch and mate them together?
I was always taught by successful breeders, to buy the best quality bitch that you can afford, and for a stud fee and a tankful of petrol, to can use the best dog in the country to compliment her, and breed puppies that are a credit to your chosen breed.
In my breed, only experienced and successful breeders keep stud dogs, because, unless you have a large number of bitches, the chances of one complimenting your own bitch is rare. And if a dog is not successful in the ring, then the chances of him being used regularly by quality bitches are slim.
I am curious to know how inexperienced folk, who often ask the most basic questions about breeding, can tell that an 8 week old puppy will grow suitable to mate with their already owned dog or bitch? Or maybe I'm looking too deeply and perhaps it doesn't matter to them so long as the dogs have got a pedigree, four legs, a head and a tail, then the idea is to produce litters willy nilly and puppies to sell?

I thought I was the only one who thought along these lines as well, Val. In most breeds you'll find certain lines which, however good the animals may be, simply will not "gell", and the resulting offspring will be no more than average. It takes a lot of background knowledge to determine which "match" will produce the best results.

But if you just want to churn out puppies and "make some money" (fat chance!) then as far as they're concerned, it doesn't matter what dog you put to which bitch. :(

Oh no I totally agree too. Which is why unless I know it is a well respected person in a breed I am waarty when I see adverts saying both parents can be seen, and advise that this is the best scenario, as I would say in well bred litters the presence of the Father is unlikely.

What dosn't help is when papers say 'always try and see the puppies parents' I have phoned my local paper and advised them to change it to 'must see it will its mother' as it can give prospective owners the wrong idea if they can see both mum and dad.
I have had soooo many people phone me saying they have seen a litter of pups where both mum and dad were there, I knew such breeders who used there own dog on every single bitch they owned {not a bad thing if you knew exactly what you was doing}.
Pet people cannot understand why I don't use my male on the girls and instead travel miles to the stud dog!!! :( :(

The thing is there will always be a market for all breeds and this is where the pet breeders come into there own, naive people who just want a pedigree dog but don;t want to pay the show winners prices will look in the local paper and always find mr and mrs bloggs who have pedigree puppies for sale this is how it has always been and always will be,
Not my cup of tea i bought my dogs from people have been in the breed for yonks with show records to match , but mr and mrs bloggs will always be there will reduced priced puppies.

Deary

I completely agree with all the previous posters on this one.

It is amazing how many times prospective purchasers are quite put out that they cannot see the sire of the pups, but usually change their minds when I explain the reasons for using a dog who might be up in Scotland or way down South. What I usually do now is to have as good a photo as possible of the Stud dog I have used, most stud dog owners will have a good one available.

I too shudder when I see adverts that both father and mother can be seen.

I agree with this posting totally, I can see it happening in my breed too.

But it isn't just "pet breeders" that use the dog down the road too and won't travel for the right stud..it goes on amongst bigger breeders too.

I would chose a dog to compliment my bitch and regardless of his show credentials, more whether he suited her & her lines, if he lived in Lands End, it still wouldn't stop me....but maybe the folk that have posted on this thread are the minority now?

Likewise it seems to be the norm to judge as quickly as you can and not serve any apprenticeship now!

Re judging - I have been showing, and breeding the occasional litter, for nearly 30 years now....I still don't feel knowledgeable enough to judge!

Agree with you Lily Munster, so many think that if you attend a few seminars it qualifies you to judge. They forget about hands on experience over many years is the finest teacherand boy does it show when they stand in the middle of that ring.

Jayne

i bought the best bitches i could get my hands on, and gave it great thought to which dog would work well with the bitch--i agree its normally for no other reason than doing it on the cheap when most use theyre own dog, , half of which these days arent even registered, let alone having an affix
i also hate to see mother and father can be seen at home, big deal, what thought went into that???
i think its easily split into 2------those who give it there best shot-study the bitch and carefully pick a male to suit, travell as far as need be, and rear and sell the pups as best they can !!!!! then theres the rest, the ones who breed any bitch to the nearest dog, preferably there own, -registered or not-health tested or not ,probably know very little about the breed, and wouldnt know a hock from a croup!!!! and these are someones "BREEDER"
no wonder dogs are having as many temperament and health problems :(

I understand what all of you are saying, yet, have you considerd that not all people want a pure bred to show.I have a yorkie, I fell in love with the breed a few years ago, studdied all I could find out about them, then got one after checking around. I decided to breed her, found a healthy male who complimented her, and got informed even more before actual mating. He's in my area so people could see him if they would like or I have pictures. I'm not doing it just because it sounded fun. I have met several people who would love a yorkie but are leary of where to buy becuase people just mate fluffy with the dog down the street and try to pass them off as pure.I think there are those out there who can love a pure bred and want one as a pet. I may never breed my little girl again but for now I know there are people I have talked to who have done some looking and studying and would love a yorkie because they love the breed. Just another point of view:)missy

Not every puppy bred from top winning parents will be of show quality, and many beautiful potential show winners never see the show ring, and are just loved companions.

If someone wants a purebred surely they want a dog that could win, or at least be totally typical. They cost the same to feed, take the same amount of looking after and should have the makings of a super companion.

Many breeders find that their best stock are in pet homes, and would outshine the one they kept. I have living proof of this in my Champion bitch, who were it not for circumstances in her coming back to me, would never have seen the inside of a showring.

Pet should not mean untypical, and you can't keep a breed typical without reference to the agreed breed standard.

I totally agree with Val and the others too. I have a dog nearly three years old and haven't used him yet. I travel hundreds of miles to suitable dogs, like many others do, my husband thinks I am barmy and cant understand why I haven't used our own dog. I may use him, but of the only two bitches I could use him on, one has been to other better dogs and the other is only just old enough. He's nice and a cracking mover and has won a bit as a puppy/junior but he's not top top class.

I don't think you have to be Einstein to work out that there is a ready market for all kinds of dogs whether they are pedigree or not. There's more pet homes than show homes and not everyone can or would pay through the nose for a specific breed from a top breeder. Not everyone cares about health checks/tests and plenty couldn't give a damn whether you travelled the country to find a stud. Influx? They've always been around. Where've you been?
If little Billy wants a puppy and you won't give him one because of whatever reason - there will always be someone somewhere who will and there's nothing you can do about that!
Lara

What caring breeders are increasingly frustrated with is the fact that poorly bred untested/unregistered pups are being sold for as much or more than ones with the full backing and knowledge available from a breed enthusiast. This is especially true with the ones sold through puppy supermarkets.

In some popular breeds unregistered stock is only marginally cheaper than fully tested registered stock, and the reductiuon in price is a lot less than the corners cut!!

Some of these breeders charge the going rate so that the buyers think their stock is top calibre!

Hi Brainless
that is exactly what is happening at the local puppy supermarket.They are charging the same price as responsible breeders like yourself but the pups are 'dog lovers'registered and no health checks are done on the parents.
What I find particularly sad is that many people are buying these puppies thinking they are buying a KC registered dog when all they're getting is a peice of worthless paper.
Archer

Lara, you are right. There is nothing that ethical breeders can do about backyard puppy producers, other than educate the public why it's worth the time to find an experienced specialist breeder. We can only explain why we health test, why we travel - to produce for ourselves and the new owners the healthiest puppies with typical temperaments, looking like the breed should.
I groom for a living and trim pet dogs of both good and poor quality. I trim a Yorkie brother and sister. The dog is a big as a cocker and has floppy ears, and the bitch weighs under 4lb and won't make old bones! Much as they are loved, both families are disappointed that they don't have the hardy, toy dogs that they were expecting!
Another couple recently bought 2 Cavaliers, not from the specialist breeder that I recommended, but from an ad in the local paper, because they were £50 cheaper. When they came in, I turned them away without touching the dogs. From 6 feet away I could see that they both had mange! They have spent more than £200 at the Vets so far and the pups are still not clear! Buying a cheap puppy is false economy.
Finding a puppy is something that the average family does only once in 15 years or so. It's a whole new world for those who don't understand that there is more to breeding dogs than putting a male with a female! It's very easy for them to be conned by someone saying "Oh but Mum & Dad are lovely. They both live here with the kids!" Mr & Mrs Average don't know that most breeds have health tests, and with few exceptions (and of course there are exceptions!) puppy producers use their own dog just to save time and money. I feel sorry for those looking for 'just a pet' as they often say. They deserve a good tempered, healthy family companion that looks like the breed they think they are buying.
Lara, considering everyone else on this thread is in agreement, I thank you for taking the time to show the other side of dog breeding. You have put it so much better than I could and if it stops just one family on this site from buying a puppy from the wrong place, then all this two fingered typing has been worthwhile!

Just a quick question. When any of you say you travel as far as need be for the right stud, do you leave your dog for a couple weeks or stay and take her to the stud yourself? I took my dog to the stud, and stayed untill something happened then took her home. I just couldn't imagine leaving her in a strange place,she's to attached and doesn't like me out of her sight unless we're at home.I just wondered how others handled this mating ritual:)

I take the bitches and stay with them - then I know they've not had any accidents, and the only mating has been with the chosen stud.

Hi, once I left a bitch with the stud dog owner for two nights as I had taken her too early and the SDO very kindly offered to keep her for me. She was a very confident sociable bitch who was quite happy to sleep on their sofa- they didn't want to kennel her outside ( lucky for her!) as it would have upset their own dogs having a strange in season bitch nearby. They refused any payment for her keep. She was happy and bright when I picked her up and duly presented me with 6 lovely puppies. I would not leave a bitch with anyone I didn't know though.

Hi, once I left a bitch with the stud dog owner for two nights as I had taken her too early and the SDO very kindly offered to keep her for me. She was a very confident sociable bitch who was quite happy to sleep on their sofa- they didn't want to kennel her outside ( lucky for her!) as it would have upset their own dogs having a strange in season bitch nearby. They refused any payment for her keep. She was happy and bright when I picked her up and duly presented me with 6 lovely puppies. I would not leave a bitch with anyone I didn't know though. I regularly travel up to 200 miles to a dog (400 miles round trip) - I would happily travel further but family commitments prevent me.

Hi Missy, over here it`s the normal thing for bitches to be sent to the stud dogs, due to the long distances I suppose. I personally wouldn`t send mine alone ever, but the last time a bitch was sent to me I took photos of the event on my digi camera just to show the right male was used & a tie was achieved.
Christine, Spain.

Hey! I wanted to write to you to talk about possibly breeding my Westie. He is too young, at the moment, but how would I need to go about endeavoring to use him as a stud when the time comes? I have done some research, but I'd like to learn if you'd be willing to give me some advice. I know I'm young and new at this, but if I can learn as much as possible then I can determine whether or not I really want to pursue breeding my Westie.

Hi,
The usual way to go about this is to enter your dog in shows. If he is good enough and does well, then people will ask you if they can use him on their bitch. If he doesn't do well, then basically he isn't suitable to stand at stud.

You could also ask his breeder for their honest opinion as to his potential as a stud. It may be that he was sold as a pet because he has too many faults (and all dogs have them) to make him a show or breeding prospect.

Hope this helps. :)

If the stud owner has the facility, and is willing, then I much prefer to leave the bitch with the Stud for 5-7 days. They can get to know each other, the Stud learns to only mate the bitch when she is ready, thus becoming more efficient as a stud, and then owners whose bitch's aren't ready can trust the dog knowing his business.

I(t also saves travelling several times qithin days to get a second mating, which is best to ensure the best chance of ctaching them on the right days.

My bitch's are very confident, and love other people and dogs, so when their hormonal like this, they are more than happy to be away from home.

I have also had kind stud owners comne to me(I don't have transport) but in this case it needs to be a confident dog, as the bitch can prove to be a bit too asertive on her own teritory, and put off an inexperienced or difident male (as I learnt to my cost over Christmas).

I have also travelled to the Stud, had one mating, and returned hom, and not had a second mating, as it was too much trouble traveling by public transport,a nd I got a good mating.

I had a lady ring me years ago to ask about a dog puppy, as she wanted to but a stud for her bitch. I explained most of what has been pointed out in earlier posts as well as the point that it would be cheaper for her to use a dog rather than buying one and then paying its upkeep. Many pet owners are ignorant of the fact that you can use o dog. They dont realise that you can pay for a dogs services. Many however, but one because it is cheaper than going and having the health tests that a reputable stud dog owner will insist on. Ive already sung Vals praises in "what colour will they be?", so Ill bugger off now!

Sorry, Had to think back and edit this in. A bitch of mine I took to the vet as a pup as she couldnt see. My vets (Theyre absolute angels) called in an eye specialist who diagnosed ppm. She said it would clear within two days, and she was fine within a week. She has since passed an eye test, but this has made me think a bit. Ive kept her for breeding as the specialist assured me it wasnt a problem in this case. She queried the eye status of mum and dad, both had clear bva/isds certs from proffessor bedford and she said she had done some of her training with him. Val, is this likely to crop up again if I breed from her, or should I spay her. (Before someone starts on the anti spaying debate, I feel this is the kindest option for my entire show dog who has to be kenneled within scent distance of my girls)

John will be your man for that one Jane. ;)

Hi Jane

Persistent Pupillary Membrane
Only Basenji has been proved to be inherited. In all dogs the membrane is there in the foetus but over the last 3 weeks before birth undergoes spontaneous degeneration and in most dogs gone by 6 weeks.

Sometimes the membrane does not completely go and that is where the Persistent in PPM comes from. Extent and severity of “Persistence” varies from single strands of mesodermal tissue bridging the anterior of the iris through to cobweb like mesh of several strands.

It is unlikely to be associated with an obvious visual defect for which treatment is necessary. It’s significance largely rests with its genetic implications. Incidence in Basenji is high, 50% in most studies!

That is a simplified version of a college handout but basically, although it can occur in any breed under the KC/BVA/ISDS eye test scheme it is only tested for in Basenji. It just sounds in your case as if it was a little slow in dispersing Jane.

Best wishes, John

I'm just concerned with people who say how much they care about a breed and making sure you get a true pure bred dog, but don't seem to have a problem sending their dog off to strangers because they get a mating with a top stud.I'm sorry, but that sounds like your more interested in the purity of the pups than the affect it could have on the female.

No, it's about behaving responsibly, not only to your own bitch, knowing that you have done the research to ensure that she will be carrying healthy, viable puppies, but also to the puppies themselves and the breed in general!

Margot

Missy,

Just catching up with this thread but from my expereince the people who send their bitches to top breeders do it knowing they are doing it for the good of the breed and I would also doubt anyone would have or do it unless they knew the people had a caring and responsible environment for the bitch to be in. I can't see people sending their bitches to a poor environment at all , cetainly nobody I know would. Breeders whether bitches or studs over time build up relationships and can help each other out.

Pam

Now Missy, why do you think being sent to the stud would have a negative effect on the bitch? Also the stud dog ownere is unlikely to be a stranger, as the mating will have been planned for months or even years ahead, and the owner of bitch and stud will have spent a lot of time exchanging information and views.

If a bitch has such poor nerves or temperqament that she could not handle being away from home for a few days, then why would you want to breed from her?

A well socialised good tempered bitch will take being sent to the stud in her stride. The reason it tends to be done in that way is to have the dog at an advantage over the bitch. He will be confident in his own environment, whereas a bitch might be a little unwelcoming to the male at her home, and he may be diffident about getting on with the business until he has settled in the new environment, whereas having the bitch at the male is more condusive to her submitting to being mated.

Brainless, I understand why you send ,or take the female to the stud. I was just wondering if you actually know the owners of the stud dog or if you take someone else's word about it.But you have pretty much answered that question for me. My dog is very sociable, and did fine at the stud owners home. But no more than I would leave my own children, would I leave our family pet with someone I did'nt know very very well.For several reasons, the responsibility , the money you spend on the pet,and not everyone handles things the same way. I think I know enough that I will follow my instinct and do things the way I have been. Thank you

I suppose being in a numericaly small breed I hadn't even considered the Stranger bit, LOL :D As we all know each other. I would never think of using a dog who I hadn't met personally, and of course you have to get to know the owners too.

Breeding properly is a trust situation. When contacting a potential stud ownere we both have to evaluate whether the proposed mating is likely to produce a good litter. I will require honest information and Opinion of the dogs owner, he/she will be the one who knows the dogs virtues and faults best, and also what c haracteristics he has produced in previous litters to bitches of similar breeding. I will have been closely looking at any of his offspring too, and the breeding of their Dams to give me clues.

My quastionto people in numerically larger breeds is does anyone breed to a dog purely on reputation? Have you ever used a dog you hadn't got to meet, or used a dog of someone you hadn't got to know?

Ok,

So how much do you think a cheap Labrador puppy is, and how much is an expensive one?

I'm talking real KC registered puppies.

Andrea.

The average price of a labrador pup is £400-£500 and there should be no difference in price betwenn the sexes or colours.

Tracy

Just for infos sake, I tapped ppm into a search engine and got onto a USA bullmastiff site where I had the good fortune to find an eye specialist who breeds a ppm prone breed. He said that as bitch has passed an eye test he would only be wary if condition had lingered on longer and that with eye status of parents and grandparents being clear too, I should be able to breed from my girl with confidence. Thanks for help on this topic.