Hi All, I have a wee problem with our puppy that I'm hoping somebody may have some experience of or at least a rational explanation because I'm drawing a blank with understanding this on my own!

Puppy is just over 5 months old.  Toilet training going well in the main, she's a massive foody so praise and treats along with keywords seems to be working and she's making us aware by tapping the door when she wants to go out.  Great and couldn't be happier with her progress, apart from the next bit...

Night times have me baffled.  She refuses to evacuate her bowels when let out last thing in the evening (normally around midnight).  We can be stood outside with her for 30 mins and she still refuses to go (in the pouring rain last night I might add!!).  I get up to her at approx 6:30 and there is always mess, no wee, just poo.  Over the last week I've reduced her meals down to two (in preparation for when my partner goes back to work in a month) and also brought the evening meal time forward from 6pm to 4pm.  She will empty her bowels following that meal around half an hour later but then wont go again after that.

I could understand a little easier if she couldn't hold a wee for the 6 hours during the night at this age but find it strange that its the number 2 she cant hold??!!

I had tried not to crate this time (not that I disagree with it I have used it in the past) but we have an 8 year old that isn't crated so was hoping that she'd pick up on her toileting behaviour by example.  I've now ordered a crate but wondered in the meantime if anybody has any ideas/experience of this particular toilet 'habit'!

4pm seems a little early for her last meal to me, but I know we all do things differently !
If you were to feed her last meal later it might be that she doesn't need to 'go' until first thing in the morning.
You could also start setting the alarm and getting up in the middle of the night for a few nights to see if you could find out at what time she poos so that you can get her outside.

Don't despair - we had a toileting wobble at 6 months that was sorted out within the week. Good luck !

Have you tried taking her for a walk before bedtime? Often the activity gets things 'moving', as it were!

I would also try feeding her a little later in the evening so that once she's pooed after that she should be able to last till the morning.

Is she happy during the day to poo in her garden?  If so - then I would leave at least one of them on the lawn - sometimes the smell 'gets them going'.  If she always poos elsewhere, then she may not realise she can poo in the garden.

I agree with the point about some activity like a walk beforehand.  And I think your intention to use a crate is probably a good one - just make sure it's not too large.

My OHs dog is sometimes reluctant to do his last poo in the garden (2year old mongrol), we take him for a little walk as it's quicker than waiting around for 20mins plus for nothing to happen.

Thanks for the comments & suggestions...

I changed her mealtime to a little earlier in an effort to get her 'to go' and give her the maximum amount of time between feeding and bedtime but as it hasn't worked I think we'll probably shift it again once we start crating.

The bit I forgot to mention is...I'll let her out for in the morning and supervise toilet time (ie. make sure she goes) and she's always desperate to get out first thing in the morning so does her business no problems.  I'll then settle them back down again in the kitchen and my partner will get up about an hour after I've left and the last 2 mornings has gotten up to mess (again just poo).  I've already cleaned the nights antics up once then my partner is having to clean up more mess!! I don't give her her breakfast so she hasn't eaten since having a clear out first thing!! :-S

I'm starting to think she's just being a minx!!

Oh and we'll definitely give the bedtime walk a shot...have nothing to lose and at least we'll be getting some exercise at the expense of getting a soaking haha!! :-)

If you start crating make sure you're able to wake up to let her out in the garden when she needs to 'go' - anything else is unkind.

ETA: it could be that she's waking up because she's hungry (I couldn't get my latest pup to go from 3 meals to 2 till she was about 9 months old because she just got too hungry), and once awake and moving about a bit needs to toilet.

She could also be coming into season and her hormones have caused a problem with her control, sure it will sort it's self shortly.

To be honest, I would think about stress and if being left alone on her own at night is proving stressful.  Stress is a great laxative...

Personally, when you get the crate, I'd suggest putting it up next to your bed.  If you don't want your dog in the bedroom later on, carry the pup in and put her in - don't let her walk around in areas where you don't want her to be, later on.  If she never finds her own physical way there and back, she is no more likely to learn to be there than a dog which has never been allowed upstairs. 

Make sure the crate is small enough that she can't toilet at one end of it and sleep at the other. 

Take her out - carry her - if she makes noise in the night.  Or set your alarm and take her out, before she wakes.

I'd say that before you can get the crate where you want it, at night, you first need to address the toileting and get that working right. 

Thanks all for your input :)

Action plan for the next few days is as follows...

Change last mealtime to later (to ensure hunger isn't waking her)
Try the bedtime walk
Set an alarm give her another toilet opportunity through the night

rabid, I understand your concerns about stress and I'll keep a eye on her but at the moment she's a content puppy and I haven't noticed any signs of anxiety etc.  There is the older dog too for company and they get on great!  When we've been out we'll come home and look through the kitchen window to find them both curled up fast asleep together...everytime! :)  We don't have a household where the dogs are free to go wherever..they have the run of downstairs (when we are home), then the kitchen when we are out and during the night.  The bedroom is off limits, not only to the dogs but also children too :) :) :)  A quiet, adults sanctuary...haven't a clue how people share their bedrooms/beds with kids, dogs, cats etc. etc. all snoring, shuffling and producing less than appealing smells through the night.  Just my partner doing that is bad enough!! :) :)

How many times a day does she poo ?
Could you be feeding too much ?

Also, I wonder about the stress bit as she is pooing when left at night then again when left in the morning.
I will be interested to see how you cure this one. Keep us informed !

I would say she poo's approx 4 times a day...or thats roughly how many I have to clean up each day when I get home from work haha!

I part raw feed, part kibble.  Each mealtime she's having a chicken wing plus 100-150g of kibble depending on the size/weight of the chicken wing.  She's a larger toy breed so I think this is right for her age and current weight.

I do see what you are saying re: stress and the times she's choosing to evacuate but can't for the life of me work out why she doesn't do it at any other time when left?  Thats the part I'm scratching my head over!  We'll get there and in a few months it'll be a distant memory when the puppy days have gone! :(

My first thought was separation anxiety rather than a 'toileting' problem.  I would try maybe taking her upstairs wwith you for a night or two to see if she still messes.
I hope you get to the bottom of it soon :))

Sorry, coming in late to this thread, just thought Id add my thoughts re your pup's feeding. You mention she is having a chicken wing and kibble at the same meal. Raw and kibble digest at different rates, its advised not to mix the two at the same meal, ie feed raw one meal and kibble another. Just wondering if this could be adding to her random pooing?!! Best of luck in cracking this!

Good luck with this, i wonder is it partially an age thing... my 5 month old has been pretty perfect for the last month and has now had quite a few accidents in the last few days (just wee thankfully) it's like he's regressing, so i am having to regress to and go back to basics..

Each mealtime she's having a chicken wing plus 100-150g of kibble depending on the size/weight of the chicken wing.  She's a larger toy breed so I think this is right for her age and current weight.

To me that sounds a huge amount. One chicken wing would be a complete meal on its own for one of my Malinois bitches that weigh 18-24 kgs.

> Each mealtime she's having a chicken wing plus 100-150g of kibble depending on the size/weight of the chicken wing.  She's a larger toy breed

Wow that seems a lot fo food.

My 4 and a bit month old pup of a medium size breed (adult weight around 20kg) is on 250g of kibble a day, just goen down to two meals from 3 getting 85g breakfast and 165g teatime, apart from the odd biscuit that's it, and she weighs about 14kg already.

>Each mealtime she's having a chicken wing

Is that a 2-joint or 3-joint wing?

Thanks for the advice about mixing dry & raw, I wasn't aware of that so will start to split the feed across mealtimes.

Jeangenie, it's a two joint wing chopped up into smaller portions!! We just carried on the same feed amount she was used to, the only change was to remove the lunchtime feed but kept the portion sizes the same. Maybe she is having too much and that's contributing? Saying that she's not overweight and not too lean either. From some if the comments we could probably half her intake which is a concern, long term :-S

What breed is she, as that would give us an idea if she is simply pooing what she can't absorb, if she is being overfed, but 200 - 300g does seem a lot for a small breed.

She's a pug... i'm worried that  although she's not overweight now, from the comments above could definitely end up that way in time!! I read the back of the kibble bag and it seemed about right so didn't question it any further. It's a long while since we've had a puppy about the place...hard work jogging the grey matter to remember everything you should and equally shouldn't do again!  :) :)

I am reading this right but you clear up four poos a day which I what she does when you leave her alone when you are at work ?

How long is due left for ?

> although she's not overweight now,

Well my pup is already nearly twice the weight of an adult pug (breed standard says 14 - 18 pounds), I would think your overfeeding your pup by as much as double the amount she needs.  Hopefully a Pug breeder/owner will see the message.

No LJS, I clear up the four poo's that she's done through the day when I get home from work and take her to toilet after her tea. As mentioned above, my partner is home all day with her ;-)

Thanks Brainless, hopefully somebody can shed some more light on her portion sizes!  the older girl has never been a big foody, she never finishes a bowl and as such there is always food down for her that she picks at, a piece at a time through the day . Portions have never een an issue with her!! Puppy is the exact opposite, a hoover and always wanting more!! :)

Is the pup eating the free food left out for your older dog as well as her own?

When reading the feeding amounts on any dog food I aim for the middle amount for weight and adjust up or down according to how they are looking.

Passing 4 stools per day plus her night time ones is alot from a small dog, can I ask what you are feeding her on as there may be more fillers/roughage in it than her gut can cope with.

Hopefully this is just a hiccup and she gets back on track.

Hi Rhodach, she isn't able to get to the older girls food (agility course to get up to it that she's not quite big enough for yet!) and is currently on Purina Pro-plan puppy (Sensitive) which is what she was weaned onto so we've just carried it on.

I spoke to her breeder over the weekend and I'd misheard the portion sizes *blushes* I had been feeding raw in addition to rather than in place of!  Thankfully she seems to have metabolised it and not gotten too portly!

Thanks to all who suggested the midnight walkies to help get her bowels in motion...it's worked!! Everytime and almost immediately, but still alot quicker than standing and waiting repeatedly saying "poo-poo" over and over haha!

The crate also arrived on Saturday, the older girl used to be crated anyway so took to it like a duck to water and the puppy followed and I'm pleased to say the last 2 mornings there hasn't been any mess!  Whether it's the crate or the midnight motion activity I'm not sure but either way I'm really pleased and hoping we've nipped it in the bud.  She's been coming along great in every other aspect of her training so now we can concentrate on the fun rather than the mucky bits!! :) :)

> One chicken wing would be a complete meal on its own for one of my Malinois bitches that weigh 18-24 kgs.

Gosh my collies (who weigh 18kg) get two each, but the silkens get 3 (15kg) and 5 (17kg) respectively.

chicken wing as in a teeny chicken wing or are we talking WING?do u have a link to something so i could get an idea???
im thinking of switching to raw!

The sort of Chicken wing you buy for barbecues.

> do u have a link to something so i could get an idea?

as per Jeangenie's pic, tesco value or asda smartprice ones - a tray of about 12 (which is one complete meal for my 4) for around £2

My 4.5 month retriever gets half a frozen chicken wing per day as well as her normal kibble is this too much or ok

I can't see that half a chicken wing will cause any problems, at that age they are growing quickly anyway, I judge puppy food amounts by how they are looking and acting, when there is a growth spurt they are suddenly very hungry so get an increase till it passes and provided they don't pile on the weight they will continue on that amount till the next one or they look like they need an increase.

Not all dogs in the same breed will need the same amount of food, you learn to juggle or free feed the adults as I do.

so can i just ask,is this enough once a day for a growing 18 week old standard poodle?i tend to feed 3small meals to my pups....

£2.00 you have got t be kidding me!!! i spend a fortune on my dogs dry food.....

Dry food is expensive because it is concentrated and we then give a small amount in quantity to what we would give either raw or as tinned with mixer, if you look at the protein content of kibble and compare with tinned it is usually double of the latter, we are paying for the convenience of using kibble.

I give the occassional chicken wing as a treat [my oldest lad has never liked them], I keep my eyes open for special offers or use the value range of which ever supermarket I am using.

Those feeding all raw will be able to buy and store bulk amounts making it cheaper than even the value ranges.

My pups are fed 3 meals per day from 3-6 months and then go down to 2 meals till adult then are free fed with the others, they do help themselves to the adult kibble but not often if I am feeding the right amount of puppy kibble.

Good bit of info there Rhodach