Please can I come and have a moan and a cry on some sympathetic shoulders?  Just been having an exhausting and unsuccessful online conversation via Facebook with someone who wanted advice on a pup they are  hand rearing.  She has a Chi pup with a 3 week old singleton, and has bravely taken on a 1 week old Lab pup who in her words is a bit weak and very thin towards the backend.  On her vets advice she is putting the pup with her tiny bitch and then supplement with bottle feeding - 3 TIMES   a day!  I cannot convince her that this advice is wrong, bad and dangerous.  She does not know what the pups weighs (she is borrowing scales tonight) insists she has tested for dehydration and is OK. She only asked for advice as it has a swollen joint on it's front leg which the vets have now advised to put cold compresses on.

The vets have said that he must not be fed more than 3 times each day to give his tummy time to expand after he was getting little to eat as rejected by Mum.  I don't know if this is the worst vet advice ever or a person who is going their own way and is using "Vet told me" as an excuse. They have also told her that the Chi (who is still nursing her own 3 week old pup) will simply make enough milk for the other Pup. I have been demented trying to convince her to bottle feed every 2 hours, and retest for dehydration - she is going to see how he does overnight!  So helpless and angry too!  Thanks for letting me vent.

Gordon Bennett. Surely a Labrador pup even just a week old is likely to be virtually the same size as the Chihuahua bitch?? (Unless it's is one of these pet bred ones that are enormous.) I'd have thought that alone would be a big worry -the Chihuahua pup will be pushed out of the way, there simply won't be room enough at the milkbar. As for feeding 3 times a day -poor puppy. :(

????  Should be every 2 hours all through the night and day and as you say there won't be much different in size shortly of the poor mother and the Lab pup.

If she has facebook she clearly has access to the internet. if she wont listen to you could you point her in the direction of a website (or forum) somewhere that would give her the correct advice??

I've tried, she is insistent that her vet gives good advice, and just keeps bleating on that they have told her it would be bad to stretch its tummy with frequent feeds!

From the pics the Chi bitch is a smallish girl.  This poor pup is apparently already lagging behind litter mates in a big way, which is why it has come to her.  I feel awful thinking of the little guy trying and trying to get enough from the Chi, and gradually falling further and further back.  Feel bad for the poor bitch too.  She say the vet has told her the "goodness" the pup gets from the bitch will do the puppy good - but it needs quantity as well, for heavens sake, and frequency, not 3 times per day.

I have no idea what output of milk a Chi bitch can produce, but after nursing her own pup fro 3 weeks would think the milk porduction may be slowing down a bit.

This sounds dreadful. Do you think she would listen to someone from one of the Chi clubs? Perhaps there is a regional breed club somewhere near her? But probably you don't know whereabouts she's based. I'm guessing she wouldn't want to put her bitch at risk so might listen to a Chi 'expert', if only online. And as for the poor, poor Lab puppy ... well it's so very sad. Hard to know how this little boy can thrive.

Oh dear, that sounds like a terrible situation all round! All you can do is keep pointing her towards forums like this that will give better advice!

I haven't read all the posts.

Why would someone so ignorant of how to hand rear take on someone elses pup?

As to stretching the stomach then little and often is the answer,getting enough into the pup in 3 feeds to sustain it is more likely to cause problems, the pups blood sugar must be all over the place and I don't believe that it isn't dehydrated.

Sounds like you are banging your head against a brick wall, they know best, I feel so sorry for all the dogs involved.

> getting enough into the pup in 3 feeds to sustain it is more likely to cause problems,

I could be reading this wrong but I understand the intention is to supplement three feeds in addition to feeding from the bitch not that the pup will only receive sustinance three times a day.  This, to me, indicates a recognition that the bitch is not likely to have sufficient whilst enabling the pup to continue to benefit from natural milk and the inclusion of antibodies.
The only issue I would have is putting a strange and unwell pup to threaten the existing pup with possible infection.

The vets have said that he must not be fed more than 3 times each day to give his tummy time to expand after he was getting little to eat as rejected by Mum.

I read this to mean 3 meals total not 3 supplements on top of natural feeding.

If on fb wpuld they join the prhand pupps group for advice and maybe a moore appropriate foster mum ?

that has to be up there with some of the worst advice i have heard a vet give. Is she ignoring your 12/13 years in toy breed dogs, and however long with your AMC. Stupid girl, what can you do when people wont listen.

Also it won't be long before the Lab's mouth is too big to latch onto the tiny teets of a Chi!

AS far as I know the pup is allowed free feeding from the Chi bitch, but I doubt if it is strong/interested enough to take much advantage of this at the moment, but yes the 3 feeds are additional to what it can get from the bitch, it's just I have a feeling  it is unable to get much from the bitch.  Even if it is feeding strongly, the bitch is, in my experience , very unlikely to be able to give enough to fill the pup  - her own pup is over 3 weeks now.  Yes, I am concerned for the wellbeing of the Chi pup too, introducing another pup into it's bed is dangerous, but I have not even gone there, as it is done now.  I have been trying to convince her to bottle feed 2 hourly, and have now got from her that she is doing something midway between my advice and the vets, goodness knows what that is, and that the pup has put on "a tiny bit" of weight, but still don't know what it weighs or how much milk it is being given.

The owner apparently bottle reared a pup some years ago, not sure why, and the Chi pup is her first home bred litter.  IT is very much a pet bred happening, and she is convinced that the person she got her bitch from is an "expert".  I was concerned when she first posted in the late stages of the pregnancy and urged her to get the bitch scanned or xrayed, as from the description it looked likely to be a single pup.  The breeding "expert" chimed in to say she had examined the bitch and could guarantee there were at least 2 pups and nothing to worry about, but the bitch was going to stay with her for the final few days.  This is a valuable talent!  Being able to asses by palpating at 8 plus weeks and forecast numbers!  The bitch had a very protracted labour and produced the singleton.

I have no idea why this person has been given the task of rearing this pup, she seems to be well meaning but clueless, and not willing ot take advice from anyone but her own vet or the "expert breeder" who does not seem to have got involved in this pup's situation.  I can only keep trying withou coming over too much as bossy and interfering - a difficult balancing act.

Even if it is feeding strongly, the bitch is, in my experience , very unlikely to be able to give enough to fill the pup  - her own pup is over 3 weeks now.

Even though the pup is getting 3 bottled drinks a day to supplement we all know just how long and how much newborn pups suckle they are on the teats all day unless napping, so the pup will not have enough to start but will bring on milk again, but whilst the milk produces full on again the Chi pup will also have depleted milk, so both pups for a day or so will not be getting enough milk to go around.

Once production satisfies the need, the poor Chi bitch is going to have teats down to the floor which probably won't go back again as a lab is going to take everything she has.

I certainly would not put my Chi bitch at risk and her pup to feed an underweight lab pup which may very well die anyway, another toy or small breed perhaps but as has been said what if it is ill? The consequences could be tragic to all 3 dogs.

I would certainly bottle feed to help out if need be............ but not do this. Plenty of pups and other animals are hand reared from the bottle although the teat is best it is not completely essential and the Chi and pup would be safe.

Good luck in trying to convince a pet breeder who is obviously not getting advice from the dams breeder either.

(Gwen link this page to FB and let's hope the lady concerned will listen.)