Do you know about this "organisation" - website link http://www.caninebreedersireland.com/home

It is a group of commercial dog breeders in Ireland, who attended the Stakeholders Meeting in relation to the new Animal Welfare Act (Dog Breeding Regulations) N.Ireland, organised by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms O'Neill) last Tuesday 25 September in the Long Gallery at Stormont.

The website does not give any names as contacts, i.e. Chairman, Treasurer, Public Relations contact, etc, the only method of contact is via an email address.

The organisation membership comprises large-scale commercial dog breeders in Ireland, and that the terms of the licences, etc. greatly favour them, in terms of licence costs, terms and conditions, etc.

The website proclaims that many millions of puppies need to be bred (in Ireland, presumably) to supply the needs of British pet owners:  I quote from their website:

"Dog breeders are a skilled and dedicated bunch of people, they work in an industry that is little understood and are often slated despite the endless happiness and joy brought to hundreds of thousands of families every year.

Unite with us so your voice can be heard, be proud to be a part of a professional and growing industry bringing jobs and prosperity to your area, Our industry is profitable, be immensely proud that it is one of the few still able to provide an income and you get to work with animals who love your care and attention.

Did you know, there are 7.9 million pets in the UK? If they all live to be 14 we need over half a million puppies born every year just to keep the existing population.

The CBI is designed to help you, dont be ignored any longer, increase our voice so we can influence and change incoming legislation to benefit our industry and its animals."

Apparently, the proposed legislation is skewed in favour of the large breeding establishments, with their licence fees being pro-rata much less than for the smaller, "hobby" breeders.

Do take a look at their website (hopefully their animal welfare standards are better than their spelling/grammar).
It is quite an eye opener - and so are the millions of puppies they expect to breed to export to the UK.   No mention is made about health checks, conformation checks, temperament testing, puppy and adult dog welfare/exercise, etc..

Full details of the proposed legislation can be seen on the internet.

And the DAC proposed standards for ALL breeders would drive out even more good breeders from breeding leaving the commercial units to provide the UK's pet dogs.  the best could afford to set up purpose built kennels to comply (plenty of things would be impossible to police) and the worst would just ignore.

Have these people not heard of the rescue problem.  Are they taking back animals they have bred that end up discarded?

One rescue owner of my acquaintance when contacting a large commercial outlet selling such puppies commented that it's the do gooders that help keep them in business.  Why is it that so many rescue dogs seem to come from Ireland, many from such breeders when they have 'used them up'.

>Did you know, there are 7.9 million pets in the UK? If they all live to be 14 we need over half a million puppies born every year just to keep the existing population.

Sheesh, you'd think there was a real shortage of puppies in the UK, from this line...

Oh boy, ***holding my head in my hands***

Mine and a dogs worst nightmare, so depressing! Don't you just feel like giving up it's supposed to be getting better not getting worse, what the heck is happening here?

Well, I can see exactly what is happening in these hard times dog breeding in Ireland and elsewhere is to become a vast business to bring in an income, dogs bred by people who know nothing about the breeds, the lines, the health, the care the lifelong commitment, possibly not even KC reg, just whip them out and ship them off.

Of the 7.9 million pets, how many of those pets are in the right homes, happy, getting what they need in time, exercise, mental stimulation, how many are neglected or sent off to rescue, passed around from home to home, born from untested parentage and costing the UK millions of pounds a year in veterinary treatments due to irresponsible breeders?

What a minefield of chaos coming our way.............

If this can not be stopped the KC MUST step up and make the KCABS the only way to get a KC registered litter for some sort of protection,  it can no longer be that they recommend health tests etc, they must just be!

People then must have the message sent out that a KC pup is the only type of pup you should buy to protect the pups, dams and sires from this type of breeding.

I shall be sending another letter to the KC about this, I'll do my bit.  But, talking to the wall aren't I?..........

My beagle came from Ireland - long story and I was not looking for a dog and did not actually buy her so much as adopt her but she was brought over by a relative of someone who basically has a puppy farm out there.  Her DNA test came back 50% beagle, 25% foxhound and 25% mixed breed - it is easy to spot the beagle and fox in her but she could well be a Kerry Beagle and either way is bred down real working lines.  She was wild as a young dog, and has been incredibly hard work to train and deal with.  I firmly believe if I had not taken the dog on she would be dead/permanent resident in a dogs home/being passed from home to home to home.  I was her 4th home at less than 6 months.  I would happily add my testament to anything that might stop this breeding and importing.  Much as I love my girl she is hell on 4 paws!

For a real insight into the way CBI works, have a read of their responses to the recent consultation on the review of Dog Breeding legislation in Ireland.

http://www.dardni.gov.uk/consultation_responses_dog_breeding_establishments_regulations.pdf

For instance from p96
regarding limiting a bitch to 6 litters in her lifetime:
"dependant upon the individual and provided a bitch is given sufficient rest ten litters could be quite possible and acceptable"

Regarding not breeding from a bitch over eight years old:
"breeding could continue until 10 years old."

In their world, it is quite acceptable therefore to breed up to 10 litters from a bitch, meaning she would be having an average of more than one litter a year, every year until she reaches ten. I pity with all my heart any dog treated like this. It cannot continue to be acceptable to treat domestic pet animals in this way even if there is a perceived market for puppies, which blatently there isn't given the rising numbers of unwanted dogs that are being destroyed.

> I shall be sending another letter to the KC about this, I'll do my bit.  But, talking to the wall aren't I?..........

No you are not. The more pressure that is applied the more likely the KC will be prepared to listen. If everyone who felt that 'KC registration' should be indicative of quality as well as parentage wrote a letter they would soon sit up and take notice. Same with writing to MPs ;-)

> Why is it that so many rescue dogs seem to come from Ireland, many from such breeders when they have 'used them up'.

This is what I can't understand. By constantly "rescuing" all these dogs from Ireland we are just making more space for new ones to replace them, and so the business goes on.

At the end of the day everyone who breeds should take lifelong responsibility and be accountable for those dogs they have bred, not pass the buck.

>By constantly "rescuing" all these dogs from Ireland we are just making more space for new ones to replace them, and so the business goes on.

Yep - it's practically being an agency for them.

In their world, it is quite acceptable therefore to breed up to 10 litters from a bitch, meaning she would be having an average of more than one litter a year, every year until she reaches ten.

:( :( But hey, it's us SHOW BREEDERS who are the cruel breeders!!!!

A lot of mainland rescues are just agencies for puppy farms too.... the rescue I help out with brings dogs from Ireland, but mostly on death row or unwanted pets... there are, thankfully, fewer dogs here in mainland, apart from, of course, ex puppy farm dogs and staffies - which the rescue isn't set up for... they used to take a lot from Battersea, but now only staffies are 'available'... in UK we need to resolve both the general puppy farm issue AND the over population of staffies as well as stopping the Irish puppy farm onslaught :-(

I have just taken on a rescue from Ireland, bred, starved and then abandoned by travellers (probably took what they wanted from the litter and ignored my little girl)... without someone going to see what they may have left behind and the rescue getting her out of Ireland her future would have been very bleak (another day on the road verge would have seen her die of starvation) ... as would the fantastic eastern European lines GSD that was on death row... now working for the Police

> By constantly "rescuing" all these dogs from Ireland we are just making more space for new ones to replace them, and so the business goes on.

Some rescues do seem to be a business, buying and selling dogs and Ireland is a source of young saleable dogs for them. 
I don't know how this will ever stop as long as people buy these dogs.

In their world, it is quite acceptable therefore to breed up to 10 litters from a bitch, meaning she would be having an average of more than one litter a year, every year until she reaches ten.

I feel physically sick! It has to be stopped.  And yes, we have to stop taking these dams and sires into our rescues, we are helping them to do it. My conscience does prickle at this though as I know they will just have them destroyed instead, who is going to prosecute them for cruelty in doing so, it won't happen as they will have a vet authorised to do it, these poor dogs will be bred from for 10yrs and destroyed afterwards, it will give them a vet bill for the destruction of thousands of dogs but I doubt it will hit their pockets at all, it's a no win for the dogs.

There is no stopping it unless there is an outcry from millions and the UK refuses any pups bred this way.

The whole thing just makes me feel sick......

> Ireland is a source of young saleable dogs for them. 
> I don't know how this will ever stop as long as people buy these dogs.

It's going to get worse with now being able to bring in dogs from EU (huge issue with former Eastern block countries breeding dogs for a market) with only a 3 week wait post Rabies vaccination. 

They can come into UK at 16 weeks (past the cutest stage), but who is to prove that a puppy when vaccinated against rabies is really 3 months old?  I'm sure it isn't that difficult in some of these countries to falsify passport details for pups.

The UK has always been the main market for Irish Puppy farm produce, it's certainly where a lot of our breed coming into rescue come from, many with IKC registration (though I believe IKC have cracked down and all puppies/dogs have to be chipped before registration).

THE ONLY CURE FOR THIS IS TO REMOVE THE MARKET, this means that if the General Public stopped buying it would not be profitable.

Of course people need to realise why a cheaper puppy will have been poorly reared and bred, though often for what has been put into them they are actually overpriced, only just a bit less than a well bred pup, or even the same price in fashionable breeds.

People don't know how to recognise quality breeding/rearing or even lack of.

I imagine all of us on here are feeling totally sickened by this- it is outrageous!  I know I have said it before, but the worst enemies of dogs and horses too, are greed, ignorance and yes even in these difficult times, affluence!

In years gone by the average person wouldn't have been in a financial position to consider buying a pedigree dog or a horse. My first pedigree cost me £10 in 1962 and meant a lot of saving to achieve.

Sadly, I just can't see things ever changing for the good.

> People don't know how to recognise quality breeding/rearing or even lack of.

The trouble is it is not just down to that.  I believe a huge number of people buying this sort of puppy would never wait patiently for a well bred puppy even if they passed the vetting process which they would not.
It is very negative of me but I cannot see this ever stopping because what these people really need to do is not buy a dog at all but they do not accept that they have neither the means, or increasingly the lifestyle, to offer suitable homes for dogs but they see it as their right to own one none the less.

utter utter crazy
needs stopping
my last litter was 14 years ago,
i,d love a litter from my bitch now ,but the way  things are now i,ve decided no
puppies are not selling, seen so many people who cant find good homes for their puppies
seems its the puppy farmers and pet people who are breeding more, so many show people are not until things improve
and now we have this being pushed, puppy farmers are winning by the looks of things

Stooge I agree with you, but it is very much a contributary factor. Having more money, whether earned or indeed benefits, has changed many aspects of society and you are right a lot people just should never have a dog at all!  I think the whole thing probably is unlikely to stop.

Sometimes it feels we are on a run away train going downhill!

Sorry Stooge, looked quickly and thought you were replying to my first post!  ( I still agree with you!) :)

they don't even have to be 3 months old now :-( it's down to the vaccine manufacturer and many are saying it's ok at 8 weeks... Defra now specifies following manufacturer's guidelines....

alot of people dont have the brain cells to own a dog, those ones that multiply like rabbits and you could liken to pondlife

You mean all those we see on Jeremy Kyle?

">to supply the needs of British pet owners

/>The website proclaims that many millions of puppies need to be bred

If all of these millions of puppies need to be bred to satisfy the demand of the British pet owner, a demand that 'apparently' can't be met by existing 'show' breeders,  would it not be a good idea to encourage the so say 'BYB' such as myself,  who does do health checks, does check on the health of stud dogs and litters he has produced,  does check on the co-efficient of the intended litter,  does ensure that sufficient good homes are ready for the intended litter,  does eye screen the litter and does not intend to have more than 2 litters from one bitch but does not show?

Just a thought.

> would it not be a good idea to encourage the so say 'BYB' such as myself,  who does do health checks, does check on the health of stud dogs and litters he has produced,  does check on the co-efficient of the intended litter,  does ensure that sufficient good homes are ready for the intended litter,  does eye screen the litter and does not intend to have more than 2 litters from one bitch but does not show?

Encourage you to do what?  show?  Yes, it would be a good idea as not only would the purchaser get the above they might also have the assurance that they were buying a typical example of the breed they desire :) Just a thought :)

No not to encourage the likes of me to show but to encourage the likes of me to breed.

I am a parasite of the show world, I will only ever use dogs that are shown as long as they have good health test results, I look for dogs that are shown and may not be champions but dogs that others in the breed appreciate, I suck on their knowledge and experience. :)

>No not to encourage the likes of me to show but to encourage the likes of me to breed.

How many independent breed specialist assessors (ie not people who take your money to use their dog! ;-) ) have assured you that each bitch is suitably close to the breed standard for her genes to be usefully passed on?

>I will only ever use dogs that are shown as long as they have good health test results

That should include your bitches as well. :-)

No not to encourage the likes of me to show but to encourage the likes of me to breed.

There's not even enough homes for the wellbred, show quality pups at the moment! It's a load of rubbish the Irish are coming up with. I know somebody with a litter (several months old now) where both parents are Champions, they have had to keep FIVE pups as there are no homes available.

Goldmali, this is NOT a general opinion here in Ireland and that ridiculous and worrying group are not indicative of how a whole nation thinks so to say 'the Irish' are coming up with this nonsense IS nonsense.

Good point, Inka.  Unfortunate wording I am sure :)  I think we all appreciate this does not apply to all breeders in Ireland.

For GOODNESS sake Inka, I meant the Irish as in the people behind the documents quoted from! What should I call them then? It IS from Ireland, so just like if it was from Sweden I'd have said the Swedes, or from Greece the Greeks, now I said that what the Irish said was a load of rubbish as it WAS Irish commercial breeders.

I might have just said this group or something. Not to worry though as you did not mean what i thought you may have, apologies so. I would guess that 98% of people here have never even heard of them, and probably never will.

>I would guess that 98% of people here have never even heard of them, and probably never will.

Are there any campaigns 'against' this in Ireland Inka?

Perhaps we ought to ask that nice lady who tells us how much we are harming our breeds to look at it?

">That should include your bitches as well. :-)

Bitch not bitches as I would only breed from one of my girls, as I said she is health tested as in hips and eyes,  as are the girls that I would not breed from.

">How many independent breed specialist assessors (ie not people who take your money to use their dog! ;-) ) have assured you that each bitch is suitably close to the breed standard for her genes to be usefully passed on?

Only one other than the stud owner has assessed the girl I bred a litter from.

From their opinions and the fact that the stud owner wanted pick of the litter I can only assume that my girl must have a little something that is worth passing on.

The point I was tentatively trying to make is that surely it is better for pups to be bred by the likes of me and obviously show people rather than farms, mills and great big mass producers.

"Perhaps we ought to ask tht nice lady who tells us how much we are harming our breeds to look at it?

Oh how I agree Barbara ...but methinks that Puddleduck will be too busy looking after her Rescue to do anything about it!

Perhaps we ought to ask that nice lady who tells us how much we are harming our breeds to look at it?

You mean the one that both tells us it's us show breeders that are the cruel breeders and also imports rescues from Ireland to the UK? ;)

Not that i know of admin, i hadn't heard of them before this and haven't seen them referred to by any show blogs/papers.

Thank you for your reply Inka :) Is the word getting out now do you think or are people of Ireland still in the dark?

Well, to my knowledge no one has heard of them more since. I posted this on FB but that's about it. The puppy farm problem is well known but amongst dog people, we still have piles of people buying pups from questionable online ad's.

Maybe the issue isn't Ireland into the UK but the other way round based on this story in the news...??!!  Pretty shocking and I'm intrigued as to what the "black market" for Dogs in Ireland might be?

http://news.sky.com/story/995617/men-charged-after-50-puppies-found-in-cars

The fact they were put into Quarantine makes it sound as if they did not originate from the UK but came in via UK, to make it seem they did not need Q/Pet passport compliance.

The black market is probably much the same as in the uk, online ads, people offering to meet halfway and just bring the pup.... the usual crap:(