I agree Barbara... bit like having a peek at the catalogue before judging.

Our open bitch class is usually pretty empty except when allrounders or overseas judges officiate.

Then its full people trying to get a stud book number with a novice or maiden exhibit.

Our open bitch class is usually pretty empty except when allrounders or overseas judges officiate.

Then its full people trying to get a stud book number with a novice or maiden exhibit.

Will you explain this to me toolz - I'm a newbie! why are they more likely to gain a sb number this way?

Depending on the breeds popularity they are in different bands for stud book qualification.  In popular breeds a stud book number can be gained by being placed 1st to 3rd in the Open class, and I think also 1st and 2nd in Limit.

In my numerically small breed it is just the first two in Open.

Also CC, RCC, JW winners get a stud book number.

Thanks Barbara, so are they bargaining on the judge not being quite as clued up as a breed specialist?

I've often thought a good compromise would be to have a separate Champions class like the US, and to have judges confident enough to withhold if necessary. Then the winner of the Champions class competes with the CC winner for Best of Sex, and if the Champion wins it is awarded a nominal CC for those lucky people chasing breed records. :-)

By the way, my dog beat both the breed record holder (twice) and the dog that was leapfrogging with him for breed record a few years back, so I agree it can be done. :-)

> so are they bargaining on the judge not being quite as clued up as a breed specialist

Yup

In my numerically small breed it is just the first two in Open.


That surprised me -ours is just 1st (plus the tickets etc of course).

Maybe it is just first now, can't say I have checked in ages.

I like the european way of grading dogs in the shows, instead of just chucking out, judges need to grade all dogs and exhibitors can see how the judge grades all exhibits& also critique all dogs, not just the best ones.
I do think many european judges are very knowledgeable and top of the world and I think this is partly because of accountability of their decisions and the fact they need to write detailed critiques. Many people can pick the best out of classes but to write down details of dogs of every quality and grade them, teaches different skills...and more so teaches a lot to the people handling the dogs that might not be the best quality.

I like the use of "worthy of CC" in many countries, where even the class winner needs to be awarded it to go for final line up and have a chance of getting the CC. More than one dog in a class can get it as well so a third in lets say open, if being awarded "worthy of CC" can beat all the other class winners in the line up, being better than the other class winners.(after 1st and 2nd in open of course). No matter if the dog is the only dog in the show, if it does not get graded excellent and get "worthy of CC", it will never be a champion so it is not true that in many countries you can make a champion if you just keep showing, even when there is a champion class.

To me, if the first dog is a champion the CC should go to the RCC winner as the judge has already "said" they are worthy of CC by giving them the RCC... I don't see how it would downgrade the title, if a dog is of a quality of being a champion, why should it not be a champion because somebody has decided to collect CC's...
What is a champion definition? The dog that has been the best at shows or is it a sign of quality, not that the dog needs to be the best but is of excellent quality that should be recognised with a title Champion?

What is a champion definition? The dog that has been the best at shows or is it a sign of quality, not that the dog needs to be the best but is of excellent quality that should be recognised with a title Champion?

It has to be the best at the shows because otherwise you could technically speaking have unlimited number of tickets given out at one single show. Then it is ONLY a grading and no longer a competition. The certificate quality award is a good indication, but without competition for the actual CC, I really don't see the point. (And I say that as somebody who once made up a Champion cat without ever having any competition for the CC. Yes judges can and do withhold, mine was never withheld on, but it really is not the same at all to gain a title this way. Had it been a dog, there would not have been tickets available due to the low numbers shown.)

Having said this, I very much like the grading system (which is in use at all our BSD breed champshows).

I certainly think grading could be implemented at UK shows without disrupting judges, even if critiques are still only done for the first two due to numbers.  I also like the idea of a Certificate Quality grade.

The latter is much like the Award of Merit used in the USA, as there all the existing champions only compete for BOB, so get o award at all, after breed competition, as the champions and Best of Winners are not placed in order of Merit, simply a BOB selected from anything from (usually) a small number, to a very large number at popular breed club shows.

Maybe they should bot be allowed to challenge for the CC but could challenge the CC winnners for BOB.  So you could have best dog (CC) and Best Champion dog, best bitch (CC) and best Champion bitch, all going for BOB? Would that work?

> Maybe they should bot be allowed to challenge for the CC but could challenge the CC winnners for BOB.  So you could have best dog (CC) and Best Champion dog, best bitch (CC) and best Champion bitch, all going for BOB? Would that work?

That's what happens in America and as we've already said it really does devalue the Champion title, under that system you can make any dog up if you keep showing long enough, soon enough all the competition will be champions and you'll be the only left to win the CC. It's not a system I would welcome at all.

It's difficult to compare the US and UK systems because the AKC covers to a much larger area than the KC does. If people had to travel to a relatively limited number of champ shows dispersed across the country every year, there would be very few people involved in dog shows because hardly anyone could afford the time and costs of travelling. Breed wins over existing champions aren't all that uncommon if you have a really nice dog and a good judge in the US.

The thing that really devalues the championship title in the US is the fact that there are so many shows and championship points are awarded at each one. However, the US system requires 15 points with 2 "majors" so it is still possible for dogs of lesser quality to be unable to obtain a championship title, especially in breeds where more competition is required for a major. It's not like every single dog shown in the US gets its title. There are some undeserving dogs who do finish their championships with the right handler, but it's not like that's never happened in the UK either.

That being said, I do agree that adding the champions class would devalue the Champion title in the UK. The lack of one does make politics horrendous, especially in the more popular breeds (seriously, I thought it was bad in the US) but it's not a perfect world and making it easier for other dogs to win isn't necessarily the way to go.

In some ways having points/CC's rationed would be helpful for may people in the USA.  If fewer shows had points, or more realistically if certain shows only in any geographical area were guaranteed majors, then may people would not find they had travelled to a show only to find there was no major, as not enough dogs turned up.

This would hopefully concentrate more exhibits at these shows and increase competition, and reduce the incidence of people making their own majors but entering their also rans, oldies and friends pets.

All my US friends are finding they are wasting entry money etc, and some have just decided it isn't worth entering shows except for specialities.

Conversely I think Non CC shows here in UK that draw a large breed entry ought to get the Best of Sex awards upgraded to a CC.  In my breed over the last couple of years we have had several non CC champ show entries well in excess of some shows with CC's.

The problem with the way the AKC point system works is that the schedule of points adjusts to determine how many dogs make a major based on entries. So if the number of shows were reduced to bring up entries, the point schedule would adjust so that it takes more dogs to make a major and people will still run into the same problem in the long run. There are AKC-sanctioned match shows that have the potential to be similar to open shows, but the only people who really go to them are the ones who need to to train a puppy or are first getting started in showing. If some shows stopped offering points, they would be unlikely to pull a good enough entry. Many people have stopped showing because they simply can't afford it, and reducing the number of shows would significantly drive up travel costs so those who don't have the funds to travel to local shows still wouldn't be attending.

How would the kennel club know which breeds are going to draw a large entry when they're planning the show though? Would they simply decide to award a ticket in hindsight based on the size of the entry or would the breed have to earn the right to have tickets at the show based on the number of entries?

> If some shows stopped offering points,

No I meant by all means continue offering single points, but have some shows with guaranteed majors.  The other shows could get a major if the entry is big enough as now.

At the moment, Specialty shows are basically guaranteed majors. Breed clubs often support entries at certain all-breed shows as well in an effort to increase the chances of a major at that show. The way the point system works, though, there is no way to 100% guarantee majors at any one show because it's based on entry and the numer of dogs actually present.

> there is no way to 100% guarantee majors at any one show

Yes I realise that, which is why I am saying that perhaps it would encourage entries and boost competition if they changed the system to include a certain number of shows in any geographical area with guaranteed majors.