Hi, my litter of toy breed puppies are now 7wks old and i'm wondering at what age i should let them go to their new homes.
I know they won't be ready at 8wks, but what is the average age that toy breed puppies are ready?. I don't want to let them go before they are ready but i
also don't want to keep them for longer than i need to for their sakes, bonding with new owners etc. I could easily keep them all forever. They are feeding well and although mum won't let them feed in the day time ( she growls at them) she still feeds them at night. Should i still be letting her do this?. We will be keeping one of the puppies.

It does depend on whether they are tiny toy or one of the larger ones, but from what I have been told 10 weeks would be the minimum, but the more delicate (prone to hypoglycaemia) tiny breeds 12 weeks.

Thank you. I think 10wks may be the ideal time then but obviously i will see how they are doing by then

I always keep my toys until 12 weeks, I did let one go to a relative at 10 weeks and she seemed to take a step backwards bless her. So 12 weeks at the earliest for me now :)

What is the advice from your breed club?  One in particular states not before 12 weeks.  So it is dependant on breed to a certain extent.

> What is the advice from your breed club?

Our Toy breed club states not before 10 weeks, but actually most people choose to keep their puppies until 12 weeks.

Having experienced both large and toy litters, I believe there's a big difference and while I let them go at 8 weeks (large breed), I prefer 12 weeks for our Toys.

between 10 to 12 weeks, 12 weeks the norm.

Can I ask why toy breeds are kept for longer? is it just because they're tiny? I'm only wondering as I have read on here many times that toy breeds mature quicker than large breeds so that is why sometimes they're mated before 2 yrs etc, so what is the reason?
(always on the quest for info lol)
Paula 

Toy breeds to some extent have been infantalised so often they are immature as baby puppies (when they can walk, get teeth, wean etc).  Also because of their small size they do not regulate their body temperature and energy reserves as efficiently as bigger breeds.

They will of course reach their adult size much faster than a large breed, as they are never meant to get beyond the size of most breeds get to at 4 - 8 weeks.  At birth they are proportionately quite large compared to their mother, which is why litters are usually small, and whelping can be difficult, one reason to breed from them when young and supple, with more flexible pelvises.

12-14 weeks depending on size.

I don't want to let them go before they are ready but i
also don't want to keep them for longer than i need to for their sakes, bonding with new owners etc. I could easily keep them all forever.

You need to put more work in for toy pups, which should be possible due to the litters being smaller. So get them started on house training, get them used to wearing collars, ideally start lead walking, and get them out and about in the car and for walks (even if carried) BEFORE being sold. I would usually take mine to either ringcraft or obedience classes, just to watch and meet people, before selling them as well as of course they will have been fully vaccinated for a couple of weeks or so when old enough to be sold. As long as they aren't just stuck at home doing nothing, there should be no problems at all selling them even when 6 months old (some breeders will keep pups until the adult teeth are through to play safe), they will still bond with new owners if the breeder has put in the work.

My breed club has a clause which states that members should not let puppies be homed until 12 weeks. Even at that age they are still tiny ,however I got my cavs when they were 8 wks old

Thank you Brainless :-)
Paula

My Pug litter are now 7 weeks and at first I thought between 8-10th weeks closer to the latter. With having such a large litter they are really needing one on one time. They are exploring my garden been with the big dogs child since day one and are now conversing with the chickens. I think they will be more than ready at 8 weeks but were keeping them til 9. They are big puppies too not tiny tiny like papillions or chis. Almost 2kg

>They are big puppies too not tiny tiny like papillions or chis. Almost 2kg

Big difference then Louise, as that is the adult weight of my breed.  So, an example of taking into consideration the wide variation, even in toy breeds.

As comparison my last Papillon litter were all around 1 kg at 10 ½ weeks (the last time I weighed them). Adult now, all weigh in at approx. 3 kg, give and take a hundred or two hundred grammes here and there.

I let my large toys go at 7 weeks, best time psychologically for them to leave. I try to let them not all go on the same day. Mum always seems releaved when they have gone and can relax at last. She has access to the pups day and night. Don't know if she feeds them at night.

I let my pug pups go at 8 week plus, depending on the individual pup/litter.  My rule of thumb is that average size pups can go at 8 weeks if they have been eating independently, 4 meals a day reliably for 2 weeks.  As a breed they can be problematic to wean!  However, smaller, less "forward" pups I keep until I see they may be ready to go to new homes (or just keep them!).  Again, this is a larger, sturdy toy breed.

There is no evidence to suggest that toy breeds go through the socialisation period any slower/in a delayed way, when compared with other breeds. 

As far as we know, the canine socialisation period is the SAME for all breeds of dog.

That means that, by the age of 12wks, a puppy should have experienced men, women, children, babies, people with walking sticks, wheelchairs, umbrellas, hats, cars, lorries, motorbikes, bikes, skateboards, livestock - cows, horses, sheep, trees, a field, a beach, different substrates underfoot (tarmac, pebbles, concrete, grass), uneven surfaces (paving stones, humps of ground, sleeping policemen), and met other dogs - squash-nosed dogs, short-haired dogs, long-haired dogs, dogs with and without tails, big and small dogs, young and old dogs, dogs which want to play and dogs which ignore and much much much more.

If you think you can provide that to an entire litter of puppies (even accepting that toy litters are smaller than larger breeds), then good luck to you.  You should scarcely have a minute available, when you are not socialising your pups, because each pup needs that exposure in a one-to-one way:  What if one pup is terrified of a reversing lorry, yet another pup is curious.... The terrified pup would have you move away.  The curious pup would have you move closer.  If you are socialising several pups at once, problems arise...

If you don't think you can provide all that, then please do your puppies a favour and let them go to new homes at 8wks.

Far, far, far too often toy breeds are treated like babies for months and months, overprotected and under-exposed to the world.  And then we wonder where 'small dog syndrome' comes from and why toy dogs are frequently some of the most aggressive breeds - or the most terrified of the world.  (And those which are not badly-adjusted are often the toy breeds which do still go to new homes at 8wks....  hmmm... wonder why that could be?)

The socialisation period is the same for all dogs.  The time for new homes is (in my opinion) the same for all breeds.  I run puppy socialisation classes, where I see the effects of delayed socialisation. 

There is often, on this forum, a sense of 'we breeders know everything, and so do the breed clubs... crossbreeds are bad, it is not possible to have a responsibly bred crossbreed...' and so on.  Fair enough, I'm not arguing against that in general.  Yet these ignorant and presumably irresponsibly bred toy crossbreeds go to their new homes at 8wks (I get them in class), and grow into well adjusted, happy and chilled puppies.  And then there are those who went to new homes at 12wks and are now 14wks, by the time they find their way into a class - these are the pedigree toy bred puppies, hiding under chairs and shaking at the prospect of meeting (say) a large breed dog, or a child.

Sometimes just because something has always been done a certain way, doesn't mean it should continue to be done that way...

There is no evidence to suggest that toy breeds go through the socialisation period any slower/in a delayed way, when compared with other breeds.

As far as we know, the canine socialisation period is the SAME for all breeds of dog.


And who said SOCIALISATION was different? It's been pointed out they DEVELOP slower. May walk later, take solids later, suckle their mother for longer etc. This is something anyone who ever has reared a litter of small toys will have experienced first hand.

Yet these ignorant and presumably irresponsibly bred toy crossbreeds go to their new homes at 8wks (I get them in class), and grow into well adjusted, happy and chilled puppies.  And then there are those who went to new homes at 12wks and are now 14wks, by the time they find their way into a class - these are the pedigree toy bred puppies, hiding under chairs and shaking at the prospect of meeting (say) a large breed dog, or a child.

Come and meet my dogs, and tell me which you think went at 14 weeks plus and which went at 7 weeks. I can guarantee your guess will be the opposite of what you think.

I've said it before, you cannot drag every toy pup across one comb just because you've experienced pups from a few bad breeders.

Did i say almost 2kg, weighed them this morning and majority are 5lbs smallest girl (Lavender- biggest bully is not quite there but she more than makes up for it in personality) been eating independently for a good few weeks. Had scrambled egg jwb beef mince for brekky they are just not entertaining kibble alone

> As far as we know, the canine socialisation period is the SAME for all breeds of dog

Wondered when you would show up Rabid, educating us all with what youve READ.

Those 'know it all' breeders who have BRED dogs for years should just keep their years of experience to themselves ...right?!

>they DEVELOP slower. May walk later, take solids later, suckle their mother for longer etc. This is something anyone who ever has reared a litter of small toys will have experienced first hand.

I picked these words out because they are so accurate. I am scarcely an expert breeder of Toys, but even during my early days, I am just so struck by the difference between my small Toy pups, and my experience of large working breed puppies.

By 8 weeks, my large breed pups have been fully weaned for 4 weeks, they are secure on 4 meals a day and their dams are part of the pack again. There are no reasons to keep them for any longer, they are better off in their new homes.  But my little Toys showed scarcely any interest in weaning until they were 5 weeks old, and their dam was still happy to give them a quick suckle at 12 weeks, not to mention all the playing she did with them. It's a different matter at 12 weeks old.

I have an aversion to applying blanket rules across all situations. Instead I think as breeders we have to be responsive to the needs of our different breeds. And to go back to Marianne's wise words, a bit of 'first hand experience' is invaluable.

Rabid I can asurre you that my chins,who didn't leave their breeder before 12 wks,are well adjusted dogs who take things in their stride.

They will walk down busy high streets and stand next to a great dane quite happily. I have met dogs of all sizes who have been rushed through the socialisation process,doing all the things on your list,before they were able to assimilate the experiences and this over flooding has resulted in some very nervous dogs.

What I am trying to say is that one size doesn't fit all but breed type,size and enviroment are a better indicator as to when a dog can leave for it,s new home.

As I said in an earlier post my cavs, who are also a toy breed came to me at 8 weeks old but they were much bigger than the chins at the same age and they also have a more outgoing personality.

Good breeders know the importance of socialisation and why assume that a pup of 12 wks is totally unsocialised.

Also no one has said that crossbreeds can't be well adjusted dogs! Think you have got a bee in your bonnet about something although not quite sure what it is

> and are now 14wks, by the time they find their way into a class - these are the pedigree toy bred puppies, hiding under chairs and shaking at the prospect of meeting (say) a large breed dog, or a child

and surely that is not the breeders fault but the new owner wasting those two weeks and not continuing the socialisation a good breeder would have already done.

As I have said endlessly I have kept puppies past 10 weeks, have exported pups that then went on to have to do a months quarantine so not coming out until after this socialisation window should have closed, yet these have been/are superbly confident dogs, who showed the moment they came out of Quarantine, and the 14 year old is still doing tracking, and passed here search dog qualifications in the past year, as they thought she would like something to do in her retirement from showing.

Heredity has a lot to do with temperament and a dogs adaptability.

I also have a Friend with a 5 year old staffie, both owners experienced but not very knowledgeable dog owners.  they had him at 5 weeks as eh was being a pain to the breeder whinging and wining.  He has never socialised with another dog since as when he was a pup at the pub he was attacked by a jack Russell, and his response to other dogs since has been negative.

He went to training classes on our advice a few years ago, and managed to stay calm around other dogs eventually, as long as they did not try direct contact or come within 3 feet.

What I am saying is that new owners often lack the knowledge to do what is required (and as you say there is limited tiem to do them/learn), and less good breeders may also fail to provide the age appropriate care and socialisation needed.

A good breeder providing the appropriate care and early socialisation, with a new owner who will continue this is ideal.  I once sold a pup to an experienced owner of my breed at 7 1/2 weeks, and was horrified at 4 months to find they had virtually done noting with her other than walk her with their own dog on the old railway lines, so she didn't meet many people or dogs.  She would have been much better left with me for several more weeks, and socialised with and without her sister (who is my usual confident example)

I did some remedial work with her, but she never enjoyed being out and about.  They lived very quietly, no TV, in bed by 9pm and no visitors.  When they moved house and had to stay with relatives as their house was sold before they had their new one, suddenly the bitch at 5 years old was forced into a much busier environment and within a few weeks was a different dog.

Thanks to everyone for your interesting comments. I recently helped my friend with her litter of 9 large breed puppies and they were ready to leave at 7wks although the 1st one went at 8wks and the last one went at 11 wks. They were ready for one to one attention. I can definatly see that mine arent on par with hers. They are definately slower in weaning. But they are well socialised, we take them out and they  play with our 2 bigger dogs. I must say its easier with 4 puppies than 9.

Heredity has a lot to do with temperament and a dogs adaptability.

Indeed!!!! I have one of my Papillons at the vets today for spaying. She's lovely looking, she's healthy, I could probably sell pups from her very easily as she's very small and people always go oh and ah when they see her and ask if she is for sale -but she's too nervous for my liking. Hence she's being spayed. I know she was socialised well as I bred her.

Yes, genes and what is inherited have an impact on socialisation (that is why an undersocialised group of labradors recovered from undersocialisation, in one study, whereas a group of collies did not).  And yes, sometimes adult dogs can adapt.  But should we plan everything around what can sometimes optimally happen, or should we aim to help pups which perhaps don't have such an ideal genetic starting point?

By the time the pups are on the ground, nothing can be done about genes and a lot can be done about socialisation.  It is possible to take a genetically timid pup and end up with a confident adult, given the right socialisation experiences.  And it is also possible to take a genetically confident pup and end up with a timid adult, given under-socialisation.

Yes, a 'bad' new owner may be worse than staying with the breeder - but if breeders are vetting new owners well (so presumably they are 'good' and not 'bad' owners!), and providing them with info on socialisation, then they've done all they can. 

There is a definite culture, here, of believing that breeders can somehow do it all, better.  And they can't.  They can't do it all, for all pups in a litter, better, for as long as they need to.  It's simply impossible.  To continue to believe that, is deluded omnipotence.

Even if a new owner does nothing by way of socialisation, the pup has experienced a car ride, new smells, a new house layout, new substrates, new people, possibly new dogs - and so on - just being in a new house carries with it a whole new package of experiences which a pup remaining at home, hasn't had. 

Whenever I put forward this point of view (the entirety of what I'm saying here), there are ALWAYS people who pipe up with their individual experiences of puppies and dogs which have received what you'd think is less-than-optimal socialisation, yet turned out fine.  One or two dogs, or even a handful of dogs, really proves nothing at all.  This is anecdotal and unscientific.  There are studies available, in controlled scientific experiments, which prove the points I'm making. 

Secondly, we can never know what a dog 'might have been' with optimal socialisation.  It might seem 'fine', but actually, it could have been even more confident in particular situations or around particular people/dogs/environments.  This is not a black or white 'fine' or 'screwed up' thing:  It is about shades of grey.  Almost every dog, even well-socialised dogs with optimal socialisation, have something or other they are not comfortable around, simply because it's not possible to cover everything in the socialisation period.  It's about ensuring those things are as few as possible.  What 'might have been' is never known.  And 'fine' is relative.

>Wondered when you would show up Rabid, educating us all with what youve READ.

>Those 'know it all' breeders who have BRED dogs for years should just keep their years of experience to themselves ...right?!

Thanks, but actually you have missed the point:  I have socialised hundreds and hundreds of puppies, of many, many breeds, over 10+ years in class, with details about their background required.  I have SEEN how the age they come to their new homes relates to their behaviour in class, with my own eyes.  I have seen the dogs through into adolescence and early adulthood, through follow-on classes. 

Since you mention reading though:  Unsurprisingly, the research also backs up my findings. 

>Unsurprisingly, the research also backs up my findings.

How odd that it's completely at odds with the experience of so many unconnected people, from all different areas. The ones who've found, through experience that it's irrelevant who does the socialising between 6 and 12 weeks, as long as it's done. However it's also important that the pup learns canine behaviour, which can only be taught by canines, so leaving the nest too soon can be detrimental.

>it's irrelevant who does the socialising between 6 and 12 weeks, as long as it's done.

I would completely agree with you, Jeangenie on that point.

Where we disagree, is that I don't believe that it is possible for a breeder to provide adequate socialisation in the period you've stated, for several puppies.  Or, perhaps 'possible' is too strong a word.  It might be theoretically 'possible', but in reality it rarely happens - even from those who purport to be 'good' and responsible breeders.

We will never really agree with each other entirely on this topic here.

As breeders with multi-dog experience we are likely to have more knowledge and experience than the best well meaning new puppy owner.

So most will muddle though and continue our early work, some may not so well, but pups will have left with a good grounding.

I agree I would hate to have a whole litter of 6 plus pups beyond 8 or 9 weeks, but this is never likely to happen, it will usually only be one or possibly two (which is all many tiny toy litters consist or anyway) as pups leaving is spread out.

As for providing new owners with written advice.  I spend a lot of time compiling my puppy pack info, yet judging my the emails and phone calls they simply don't read it (at the appropriate time) or take it in, probably far to busy dealing with the pup.  Thankfully I am here to answer the questions, try to steer people correctly.  It has invariably been the experienced owners whose hands I didn't think would need holding that have shocked me with their lack of puppy savvy.

Breeders are not omnipotent, but we have far more ongoing/recent experience of puppies than most pet dog owners will ever have.  The average one at a time dog owner may only have gone through 3 - 5 lots of puppy rearing about 10 years apart each time.  As breeders we are likely to be doing this stage far more often, with the pups we keep past the litter stage, and certainly much more of the baby stage.

>Breeders are not omnipotent, but we have far more ongoing/recent experience of puppies than most pet dog owners will ever have.  The average one at a time dog owner may only have gone through 3 - 5 lots of puppy rearing about 10 years apart each time.

So very true. I see so many new puppy owners at work and, even the minority who have reams of instructions from breeders are blundering around in the dark. A pup needs to be with its mum and siblings till about 8 weeks for canine learning with the breeder starting the humanising work while the pup is still in totally familiar surroundings. Pups removed from the litter before this time are at an immediate disadvantage because of the many additional stresses on its system.

From my own experience of socialisation at puppy parties at the vet's my puppies, and those from other "good/show" breeders are confident, have had lots of outside experience prior to the party and come in ready to meet and play with other pups, experience new things and generally fully enjoy any new experience, being fearless despite their small size.  The ones who hide under chairs, behind legs etc are usually the ones who have gone to new homes much too soon and those who have had little socialisation before being sold, usually these are the pups from pet breeders/puppy dealers etc.

At the puppy class i went to there are 4 chihuahua pups,3 of them were a few weeks older than than the rest of the class because they went to their homes around 12 weeks( if i remember 1 was a bit later).The 4th pup was picked up at 9 wks,i know this because she belongs to a lady i know and she was the only confident one of the 4,the other 3 were timid,terrified of the other dogs including my dog who is so quiet and chilled.one of the timid puppies owners spoke about it in class and said her previous chihuahua came to her at 8 eeks and was the total opposite and she wished she had picked this one up at 8 weeks to socialise her so going by what ive seen it does seem that even if 8 wks is a bit early for a tiny pup,12 wks is perhaps a bit late because the period of socialising is very important.One of my neighbours also has a toy breed,recenyly bought at 8 wks and now is around 4 months old,very confident happy boy,certainly hasnt affected him in any way going to his new home at 8 ks.This is just the few i know about,my dog is a larger breed so doesnt come under this category.

Thanks nellygal for being one person to speak out.  There is no reason why a toy puppy can't go to new homes at 8wks old.  Yes, a toy breed is physically smaller than a large breed - but psychologically they mature at the same rate. 

I know pedigree cats go later as they have later vaccinations, but is toy breed going later a fairly new phenomenon ? I had a small breed dog in the early 1980's and I had her at eight weeks, and that was the norm then.

The cat socialisation period is completely different to puppies - it finishes much earlier - it finishes around 8/9wks.  So if a kitten isn't homed before then (and few are), it may as well stay with the breeder until much later - it makes little difference because the socialisation period is over anyway. 

I know pedigree cats go later as they have later vaccinations,

It's not just because of the vaccinations (although they have to be fully vaccinated when they go which means 13 weeks as it is done at 9 and 12 weeks and then a clear week left after) but kittens suckle their mothers right up until the moment they go, and those kept by the breeder usually suckles until 14-16 weeks old. They often don't start solids until 6-7 weeks of age and I have 3 times had litters where one kitten refused all solids until 10 weeks, so they mature much slower. In my experience kittens and toydogs are far more similar than toydog pups and larger breed pups. When you've bred both large dogs and small toys (bigger toys are different) you really are amazed at how different they are.

But what you've just said there, Goldmali, is that kittens suckle their mums up to 14-16wks - yet the cat socialisation period ends at 8/9wks. 

Therefore there is no relationship between physical maturity (age they stop suckling - v late) and socialisation period (ends v early).

That is:  It is possible for an animal to be very slow to physically mature (stop suckling) and yet have a socialisation period which ends before that age:  It doesn't follow that the socialisation period is also delayed, if physical maturity is delayed... 

I thought we were referring all the time to pups in tiny toy breeds not being physically mature enough to leave the breeder, no-one suggested their mental development was delayed. 

As Marianne said breeders of such toys have an added responsibility and have to expect extra work, as they will have to do more of the age appropriate socialisation which the new owners in larger more physically robust breeds would be doing with the majority of the litter.  Fortunately such toy litters are usually very small, and breeders of larger breeds rarely have many pups left at this age.

Off topic I know but Barbara is that your new pup in your avatar? I had to go look at your website because she looks lovely, sure enough the bigger picture confirms this :-)

Yes it is Peni, If she stays in those proportions as she grows then I will be happy with her, she is 4 months 1 day old in that picture.

She is by the dog my friend imported out of the dog I used on Inka in the USA mated to a bitch we admire.

So the sire is young Safi's half brother and Peni and Safi's' mothers are half sisters out of my Lexi.  Peni's Mum is out of a Norwegian dog I travelled to Finland to use in 2006, and unfortuantely the best pups were all male, so Myka was kept for the lines.

She looks really promising, best of luck with her :-)

My large toy breed usually go at 10 weeks. I've had 3 now come to me at around that age, all are / were happy outgoing dogs completely unfazed by standing near bigger dogs (in fact my latest would rather fling herself at a St Bernard than play with a dog her own size). My only slightly nervous one is the one I bred, comes from perfectly well socialised and bombproof stock, but although classes helped a lot, she is a bit more cautious around other dogs than I would really prefer. Incidentally my gundog also came to me at 10 weeks old and he's perfectly well adjusted too. Of the 2 puppies I bred and sold, one was more outgoing as a young puppy, but didn't go to puppy classes at all and he is now more reserved as an adult. :-)