My 14 month old Giant Schnauzer was diagnosed with UAP [Ununited anconeal process] in january and after having screws put into both of his elbows and having his fibia cut to release pressure on the screw, he's still now [after 10 months and £10000] refusing to put any weight on his right leg :(
We've been back and forth to specialist so many times I've lost count. He's had 9 GA's and numerous x-rays. Last week we went back to see the orthopedic specialist who took x-rays and it looks like the cut in the bone isn't healing as well as it should and it's possible that the fusion in the elbow has weakened so either of those could be causing him this pain.
My question is, does anybody know anything, vitamin etc. that would encourage bone healing? I can't bare to put him through another GA because it takes him longer to cover everytime and I'm scared that one day he won't, so I'm going to try everything to avoid another operation.
Has anybodys dog had the same condition and ops? HELP PLEASE!? I'm on a brink of a breakdown with worry...

He's also getting infections to the left leg and is on antibiotics for at least 8 weeks :(

Sorry to hear such a young dog has such big problems with his bones/joints.

I know nothing about the condition, never heard of it before, hopefully someone who does will be able to help. Has the vet not suggested anything diet wise that may help?

> Has anybodys dog had the same condition and op

My dog was diagnosed with UAP at about 5 & half months old, but only in the one elbow. The specialist gave us the option of managing it without an operation, which is what we did, manage through weight & excersise control and pain meds (Metacam) when needed.

I'm sorry I have no experience of the operation side of things, but I do know how awful it is seeing your dog lame :( :( so just want to try to offer some support.

Suppliments = Glucosaime HCL & cod liver oil, both for joint health, not bone growth - check with your vet first re. brands of Glucosamine as some may contain extras that have contra-indications if your dog is on NSAIDs

I'd have thought that your dogs unwillingness to bear weight would be a contributing factor in the bone not healing as quick as hoped?? (I remember when my sone broke his lower leg in 5 places - he was in a cast for yonks and not allowed to weight-bear for a while, but they got him in a walking cast as soon as poss to promote healing)

Has the vet/specialist suggested any excersise you can do with your dog to help him get used to the sensation of weight-bearing (eg, hold him and push up through the leg) or checked thierself that he is/is not in pain with this?  I wonder if part of your dogs problem is the thought of weight-bearing, if he remembers it being a painfull thing to do he may be reluctant to even attempt it???

Is it possible to have a sling around his chest to take a lot of his weight to support him in walking - check with your vet/specialist.

One thing to keep in mind, if joint fusion is ever suggested as a future possibility (I'm not saying it will be, but if you have a long chat with vet/specialist about all future possibilities it may be mentioned), it really isn't that bad for a dog to not be bale to move his elbows. My dogs elbows have fused on their own now, and allthough it effects his gait and stops him doing some things (can't put paw to face, so has to hold objects to chew between front legs rather than with paws, picks things off floor with mouth like a giraffe with splayed front legs, makes climbing steps difficult etc.) it doesn't stop him romping around when he wants to and generally being a dog :)

Have chat with your vet/specialist, take a list of questions with you and talk over your concerns, it can help put your mind at rest a little if you know there is X,Y or Z that can be done to help - even the posibility of increased/different pain meds if his leg is causing him pain.

I wish you the best of luck and I hope, allthough you've taken a different route than I did, that you get the same outcome - a dog that is pain free (without needing pain meds) and can get around under his own steam (allthough his gait wouldn't win him any awards!)

All fingers and toes crossed for you and your dog.

(For those that don't know what UAP is, it's where the knobbly bit at the back of the elbow - anchoneal process - does not fuse into place as it should, it  remains detatched, making the joint unstable and the loose bone can cause pain through rubbing on the joint)

> never heard of it before

It's one of the main conditions under the 'Elbow Dysplasia' umbrella.

I hope the Original Poster has contacted the breeder, so they can address their breeding plans, to take this hereditary health issue into account.

I would certainly be looking to the breed club to be encouraging Elbow scoring in the breed (It's not a numerous breed so most lines are connected).

I'm afraid I have no experience of the problem.  It sounds an utter nightmare for the OP and their dog.

Thank you everybody. It's been hell with him for the last 10 months. On top of his surgeries the bandage rubbed his leg after the first surgery so a massive piece of skin and flesh fell off front of his leg so he had to have another operation to fix that, but has been left with a huge scar with no hairs on it.

ML, the non surgical route was never an option with him because he couldn't walk at all after the smallest amount of excercise.
Both of his elbows have actually fused, but there's a possibility that the fusion in the right leg has weakened and if that is the case they will have to go back in and cut of the ulna, meaning that he'll be arthiritic within months.
He's had 5 infections in the left leg which have gone away with abs, but have come back couple of weeks later hence the long term abs now.
What is really worrying that he was already doing better and even joined the girls for walks, but a few weeks ago he went VERY lame and now doesn't want to use the right leg :(
He's had all the hardware taken out so that can't be bothering him either. The left leg screw was pushed out by his body and the right leg screw was taken out two weeks ago to see if that was the reason for his lameness, but since he's still not happy it must be something else. The pins are out as well.
It's soul destroying to watch him hop along and wanting to do what a puppy should, but of course he hasn't been able to for months and it doesn't look like he's going to any time soon.
He's having laser treatment and hydrotherapy [not now because he won't use the leg] but I am thinking about the holistic route as well with the bone healing.

I'm actually now beginning to wonder if I will be able to keep him. I have to walk him separetly from the other two and that can't continue permanently because I just simply don't have time to walk dogs 4 times a day.
If I can get him to a point that he can do small walks without being lame, he might be better off in a one dog household with somebody who can do couple of shorter walks a day.
It would break my heart to let him go because I adore the guy, but things can't carry on as they are.

Brainless, I'm not going to say anything else about the breeders except that if I ever again have a puppy/dog with an illness or condition, being genetic or not, I will NEVER AGAIN tell the breeders. 
As far as elbow scoring goes...ha ha haa...

> ML, the non surgical route was never an option with him because he couldn't walk at all after the smallest amount of excercise

Buster couldn't excersise, he couldn't even make the 4 yard journey from the kitchen to the living room. However, each dog is different and available options will vary from dog to dog and Buster only had the one elbow effected at that time.

> Both of his elbows have actually fused, but.....meaning that he'll be arthiritic within months

How have his elbows fused on their own if he hasn't allready got arthritis? Has he got another form of displasia in addition to the UAP? Have his elbows been surgically fused?

Only time will tell how your dog will be when he's an adult, in a couple of years time he may be able to keep up with your other dogs, but then again he may not.

They haven't fused on their own, the screws and pins were put in to help to start the fusion, which they did.
Apparently once the fusion has started it'll carry on even if the screw is taken out.
In the left leg the fusion actually pushed out the screw. By the time he was in theatre the screw was half way out almost pushing through the skin.
I'm hoping that when he has actually stopped growing things will settle. I am keeping him very slim, but even then he's already 46kg's, that's without hardly any muscle tone on his front legs.
He has some arthiritic changes in the right elbow, but they shouldn't cause him not want to put any weight on, not yet anyway. The left elbow is fine part from the infections in the fibia.
He will eventually get arthiritis on both sides.
At the moment we have no clear way forward which is sooo frustrating. I have said right from the beginning that all this will end up in tears and so far nobody's convincing me otherwise.

I will NEVER AGAIN tell the breeders. 

Been trying to read between the lines but can't understand why you would not report this condition - if people do not report to the breeder and the breed club the condition will never be addressed.

Please explain why you have decided to keep genetic problems to yourself?

BTW you have my sympathy and I wish you the best just puzzled by your statement.

> I will NEVER AGAIN tell the breeders. 
> As far as elbow scoring goes...ha ha haa...

I don't understand the breeder needs to know, what they do with the info is down to their ethics, but informing the breed club of the situation so that a problem/emerging problem in the breed can be addressed is the way to go.

In my breed breeders are required to hip score, DNA test for Prcd-PRA, and still required to have physical eye test for any emerging issues.

As yet we have not had an issue in the breed with elbows, the few dogs scored here have all been normal, as they have in USA and Scandinavia where they are starting to use the scheme, so no-one here has started scoring elbows routinely (perhaps if the cost was a bit more reasonable we would do it just because they were under for hips anyway).  Several of my breeding have had their elbows done in USA and Australia, and Normal results, so haven't seen a reason to pay the large extra sum to have them done routinely here..

> They haven't fused on their own, the screws and pins were put in to help to start the fusion, which they did.
> Apparently once the fusion has started it'll carry on even if the screw is taken out.

Ahh, so the entire joint hasn't fused, just the anchoneal process fused into place. When I mentioned elbow fusion, it was total joint fusion I meant (arthrodesis) - it can be surgically done to the elbow when other surgery can not relieve pain/stabalise the joint.
As I said, Busters joints have fused solid on thier own - the lack of movement=lack of pain.

> I'm hoping that when he has actually stopped growing things will settle.

Buster got better and better as he got older, from about 2 years of age his elbow really settled down, prior to that he'd sometimes get a limp and a few times I needed to get him on Metacam. He's 5 years old now and has not needed any pain meds for over a year, the last time was a short course after he fell off the sofa and jarred an elbow over 12 months ago.

As your dogs body matures and he developes more muscle, that muscle will help support the joints.

> I am keeping him very slim, but even then he's already 46kg's, that's without hardly any muscle tone on his front legs.

Don't get worried by the 46kg bit - he's a giant :) As long as he's lean then you are on the right track, doesn't matter that he weighs a lot, it only matters that he's not carrying excess weight :)

> I have said right from the beginning that all this will end up in tears and so far nobody's convincing me otherwise.

:( You've obviously had a very nerve-wracking and emotionally draining 10 months :( :( I thought Buster would not do very well in life and for his first couple of years, I was always worried about the what-if's and waiting for him to have a devastating set back. Now a days, it's rare I worry about his legs, he's done far better than I had hoped for. Dont feel that all is lost yet.
xxx

>if I ever again have a puppy/dog with an illness or condition, being genetic or not, I will NEVER AGAIN tell the breeders. 

Why not? How are they to know that there's a problem if they're not told?

I'm reading it as the OP has told the breeder and hasn't had a satisfactory response.

One of my dogs had carpal valgus as a pup, not the same condition I know, and after 2 ops to straighten her legs which didn't work she walks like Charlie Chaplin. She has no movement in her elbows at all and when they were scored she was way beyond 3 the max score they could give. However even though she doesn't exercise a lot she jumps on and off a garden bench on a daily basis and tears off down the garden when a neighbouring dog barks. I'm sure she is very arthritic but importantly she is a very happy lively dog. She doesn't know any different.

You say you are not doing any hydro atm - maybe a water treadmill would be helpful?
It might still be a long road for you but don't lose hope yet. I know it's hard having a dog with more needs when you have others, it's ok when everyone's fit and healthy but really draining when one is ill.

>I'm reading it as the OP has told the breeder and hasn't had a satisfactory response.

That's disappointing, but no reason to not tell any breeder in the future.

I didn't say I hadn't reported it, I said I wouldn't do it again in a future because it all got very nasty and spiteful.
I won't go into any detail here because it's all in the past now and I have to moved on.
My priority is with my pup and his wellbeing.
Anyway, thank you for the encouraging words. I really hope we can get him right and give him a decent life.

What all this has shown me though that you can plan as much as you like and things will turn the complete other way. My girl was a internet bargain who won her class at Crufts in her 3rd show at 2 years old and has just retired with full house par one and 2 reserves. The boy, who was bought as a show prospect has dodgy elbows.
C'est La Vie!

>I said I wouldn't do it again in a future because it all got very nasty and spiteful.

Better to never buy another puppy if you've already decided that all breeders will act like that. :-(

I've just seen your post.

My two Chow Chow pups were diagnosed with elbow displasia at 5 months with the one having UAP.  It is certainly a very stressful recovery when you have pups that just want to have fun.  With my two they had to have complete crate rest for 6 weeks which meant I had to have a dog sitter come 3 times a day to take them by lead to the garden for toilet breaks. They also had to have cartrophen injections every 6 weeks which increases fluid in the joint to relieve pressure. My boy had the bone removed as it had just crumbled, they also both had to have a lot of torn off cartilage removed.

Recovery was very slow, even after the crate rest finished they were only allowed in the garden on leads. After a couple of months I tried a slow 10 minute walk but they both came back lame. Every couple of months I would try again but always lame.  They were both 2 years old before they could be walked without lameness which I assumed was due to them having stopped growing at this point. After that 2 years though I had pretty much normal dogs, just tried to keep to softer ground for their walks, grass and sand.

I lost my dear Balto who had the UAP just under 2 and a half years ago to stomach cancer, I'm still heartbroken, but I still have his litter brother Baloo who is now 8 and a half and only just beginning to get arthritic and slow down.

Unfortunately it's just one of those thing where recovery is slow, I can't say there is any suppliment that will help, the only thing I can think of is hydrotherapy to increase his muscle strength which in turn may help to support the joint better.

>After a couple of months I tried a slow 10 minute walk but they both came back lame. Every couple of months I would try again but always lame.

Incase you haven't read all the replies - Buster did not have the operation and at the time of diagnosis, he could barely walk 4 yards. We went down the route of managing it through diet & excercise control. I remember posting a picture of him on another forum when he was 7 months old - a pic of him walking accross our patio - him being able to walk around the garden was a mile stone!

I'll give an outline of how I got him walking, incase anybody else in the same situation comes accross this post looking for help.

1# First, I'd walk him at a snails pace to the end of my front yard, so that is about 3 yards from my front door!
We'd only do that once per day and in about a weeks time, he was managing that tiny walk a lot better,
2# so I increased it by about 2 yards (past front lawn to back of neighbours car!).
3# Again, in about a week I he was coping better so another increase - now he was at about 10 yards (each way)
4# When he was doing well with that I added another 10 yards, but this resulted in an increase in lameness so back to stage 2 for a while.
5# Back to step 3, again this resulted in an increase in lameness, but I realised he was walking quicker and the return journey was slightly up-hill. If I made him walk slow on the way back he could cope with this.

And on it went, if I increased the distance too fast or allowed him to walk too fast, we'd have a set back.

He was diagnosed at about 5 & half months old and he was 7 months old before we could make it to the orchard at the bottom of our road with no ill effect - about 50 yards away.
Over time I continiued to slowly build up his route, finding out along the way that if we had over done things (walked too fast/too far/changed terrain), a days rest from walking made things worse, it was far better to still take him out, but on a much shorter & slower walk.

The walk I built him up to is just under 1 mile, when he was doing well with that I introduced a second walk (half the length of the first), he was looking fab, you could actually see the muscle in him for a change. He was going great with that for a few months then stumbled and was terribly lame. I cut him down to 1 tiny walk per day for a couple of weeks and when he was able, eased him into the 'long' walk once per day.

Over time that walk has become much less controlled, I don't need to controll the pace he does anymore and he has even jogged half of the route a couple of times when the mood has taken him! The walk home is up-hill, the final leg of it being on a pavement, this at one stage needed to be walked slowly, now he can run home with no issues (he just rarely chooses the energetic option!)

I haven't yet been brave enough to add in that second walk, but I'm noticing that he is walking his route quicker now (5 years old), at one stage the walk would take us 45 mins, but now (if we don't stop to chat to people and he doesn't spend an age sniffing) we're back in 20 mins and it's looking like he could easily manage a second walk and obviously if he can manage it, it will benefit him a lot - but, I'm still not brave enough to risk it - I must take the plunge!

Excersie for this type of thing is a tricky balancing act, the aim is for an increase but too much & too soon has the reverse effect. Pace, distance, terrain (tarmac, short grass, long grass, sun baked mud, wet mud, up hill, down hill etc.) all can have a big impact on progress - tiny little stages of progress get the desired effect quicker than trying to rush things.

@ ML the 10 minute walk was just the 1st walk off the property, up until that point I was the same as you, lead walks to the front garden and back. I'm still glad I went for surgery as after the 2 years they were fully fit and able to run and play, it is only now that Baloo is slowing down. 

As I understood it at the time the surgery was considered to be a better option for breeds under a certain weight (can't remember the limit now) and for dogs under a year old, my boys had their ops at around 6 months old. They hated the cage rest of course but I felt it was worth it for the future years of health they were likely to have.  It paid off in the end and I am sure that it was only me that was left with the stressful memories.

Like you say it is a lot of trial and error in terms of exercise, I was lucky that at the time I lived near a sandy beach and was also close to a shallow river which was great when they could cope with the pebbles, I'm sure the cold water kept any inflammation in check.

>ML the 10 minute walk was just the 1st walk off the property, up until that point I was the same as you, lead walks to the front garden and back. I'm still glad I went for surgery as after the 2 years they were fully fit and able to run and play, it is only now that Baloo is slowing down.

I hope you didn't think I was trying to get at you or judge you, I was honestly only offering the way I did things for anybody else that may happen accross this thread.

When faced with a pup with a problem such as this it is devastating and really hard to make a decision - to operate or not to operate - the dogs entire future is resting on it.
Your post should give the OP encouragement, you made the same decision as them and your dog is reaping the benefits, hopefully the OP can see that the emotional rollercoaster they are on can have a positive outcome :)

When I had the decision to make, the specialist gave the options of to operate or not, there was no recomendations for either, but I asked about and had all posible scenarios explained. After talking with Busters breeder, I took a leap of faith and whent with the breeders advice - do not operate unless there is no alternative (he would not opperate on a Mastiffs joints prior to 9 months of age due to the rapid growth, and then only after 9 months of age if 100% unavoidable, he has 30+ years experience of the breed)

What I'm trying to say is there is no right or wrong decision to make, we can all only make the decision we feel is best for our dog. With this thread having 2 dogs with the same condition, one operated on and one not, both walking well at the 2 year point, it may give somebody else a bit more confidence if they are facing the decision thierself, and in the OPs case give some faith that whatever choice has been made, time makes a huge difference :)