Hi guys

My bitch, who is almost 3, is in heat and I did buy these ovulation pads that test for LH surges, to better aid me when to mate her. The product can be seen here:
http://www.lapdog.co.nz/DBPMTS.php

It's supposed to turn from pink to purple/burgundy on the LH surge days, with the day leading to it weaker and then spiking to a distinct purple on LH surge day. Therefore ovulation is about 2 days later, egg maturation 1-3 days later. So you can breed her about 2 days to 5 days post the LH surge as indicated in the pads.

It is my first time to do this. I started checking her at day 8 with the following results, through the link:
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/r0t4j4.jpg[/IMG]

I don't think she's surging as it's still pink at day 10. The first pick has a wee bit of blood, hence the angry pink/red.

Any inputs? Has anyone used the product yet? Feedback?

Tried. Complete and utter waste of money :-D

However, having said that. Have got another friend who'd failed to mate her bitch a few times, guessing she'd be ready for mating when tail flagging, around days 12. She got pads to try in desperation and they indicated bitch ready for mating on day 4, I think. They did and finally had pups. So, she reckons they're good.

If you do a search for ovulation pads on this site you'll find plenty of feedback, mostly negative!

Negative feedback from me sorry.  For every person who says they work, you will find 500 who say they're rubbish.

And you do have to be careful, as they can scratch the vulva.

Get the vet to blood test to be really accurate.

I have used them successfully as have friends either side of the pond, it was those that told me a bitch who kept missing was ovulating early and I had been mating her too late.

I snip a tiny bit off the corners with my nail clippers as my girls are not very big and avoid any scratching.

Any change in colour means she has ovulated, some dogs will have lots of vaginal secretions causing the whole pad to change, those with less may only have a colour change on the edges.

Here's to a successful mating when the time is right.

Sorry I'm afraid I didnt find them useful either.  The time I did use them I also blood tested.  I went to the stud when the blood test said but continued to use the pads for the 3 days I was away just to see what happened.  They never really changed and she did have a litter that time so if I'd have been relying on the pads alone I would probably have missed it!

If anyone finds they work, its probably because many bitches get pregnant anyway...so the colour change and success would most likely be a coincidence.

Never used them but most people I know scoff at them as a total waste of money.

> If anyone finds they work, its probably because many bitches get pregnant anyway...so the colour change and success would most likely be a coincidence.
>
> Never used them but most people I know scoff at them as a total waste of money.

Just an update, here's day 11. No changes I guess.
http://i45.tinypic.com/x3hcfb.jpg

So the earliest she can get her LH surge is Day 13, assuming LH starts to rise tomorrow, Day 12, to peak on the next day.

If they tell you to mate your bitch day 12 then you could probably do without them.

> If they tell you to mate your bitch day 12 then you could probably do without them.

Haha I know what you're saying. But I have tried to breed her previously but she didn't conceive, being mated at Days 10, 12, and 14.

If she does have her LH surge on Day 13, then she'll ovulate Day 15, with the eggs sperm friendly earliest by Day 17. If this is the case, I've been mating her too early before.

So well, I'm just trying to be more sure.

Your best way to ensure your not mating too early is to allow a mating every other day for as long as the bitch will stand as once she goes over she will no longer stand. 

This makes most sense if the bitch stays with the stud or the dog is close by.

If thsi isn't possible then that is when blood testing coems into it's own.

If any other method was reliable you can be sure that vets and repro specialists would use it, as of course taking blood is far more invasive, adn time consuming before gettign results.

These must be different pads, the ones I use say mate 48hrs after the pad has changed colour as the eggs released at ovulation will be ripe and ready to accept the sperm, this allows me to get them to the stud dogs 200 miles away.

I used them on one of my bitches to see what pattern she followed ready to be mated on her next season, the colour change had stopped within 48hrs, she was successfully mated on that next season.

Last year I used the pads and blood tests as it was going to be the last chance to get my early ovulator pregnant, the results tallied and she was successfully mated.

If your dog is still bleeding heavily it may be masking any colour change on the pads. What colour are the pads pre use, mine a neon pink, if left exposed to light[I did this by mistake once]they will go darker and not work.

We tried them, total waste of money and extremely sharp edges, remainder of the packet went in the bin. Best to stick to Idexx or Premate tests, in the past we've used both successfully.

Hi guys

Just an update.
Is it just me or well, it's Day 12 and still no LH Surge. What do you think:
http://i49.tinypic.com/33ej32u.jpg

seems to have gotten lighter even?

If you are relying on these pads alone you are taking a big risk and could end up missing it!  Even a premate which costs about £35 could give you more of an answer and can be done there and then at the vets providing you give them an hours notice to take it out the freezer.

Hi guys

Updated. Day 13.
What do you think?

http://i48.tinypic.com/axkzl.jpg

You seem to be completely ignoring posters opinions.... Just as if you havent read them.

Perhaps you are advertising this product?

As far as most people on this board are concerned they do not work, and any pregnancy is simply because most bitches get pregnant when mated at the average timing.

If something this easy worked reliably no-one would bother with blood tests.

Your most reliable guide is an experienced stud dog, so if he isn't too far away take her to him and board her with him, or travel to him each day or alternate day.

> You seem to be completely ignoring posters opinions.... Just as if you havent read them.
>
> Perhaps you are advertising this product?

Hi. I have been reading the posts and using them in my decision.

With my bitch, she's been bred twice before, both with the average time of day11, 13, and 15.

I'm just trying something new. And if she didn't conceive both times before, then its possible she's a very early or very late ovulator, which would tally with the fact that it's day 13 and still no LH surge.

I'm doing vaginal cytology on her tomorrow though as back-up.

> I'm doing vaginal cytology on her tomorrow though as back-up.

That is far less reliable than blood testing, often used as a precursor, as when the cells reach a certain stage then blood testing can start to avoid having to do too many, but for this you should have started this at the end of the first week.

As for bitches being late or early my most recent bitches have been 18 days plus, the one who most recently had pups was mated on days 18 - 22 on all three litters. 

I have just noticed the OP isn't in the UK, I did wonder why they had got the ovulation pads overseas and not from the same company I have used here. Maybe the testing of bitches there pre mating is different to here.

She also has the saliva testing kit but experienced breeders I know have tried that and found it useless, saw a new version on a breeders website lately, can't remember it's name.

Are there no intact males[doesn't need to be the same breed as you are not going to mate them] in your area that could give you an idea of whether she is ready or not, make sure you keep both dogs on leash and see how each one reacts, most males won't waste their energy on a bitch who is not ready so it is a good indicator as to whether you need to go to the chosen stud sooner rather than later.

> That is far less reliable than blood testing, often used as a precursor, as when the cells reach a certain stage then blood testing can start to avoid having to do too many, but for this you should have started this at the end of the first week.
>
> As for bitches being late or early my most recent bitches have been 18 days plus, the one who most recently had pups was mated on days 18 - 22 on all three litters. 

Hi

Yup I understand. I just want to see if she's in estrus already to make sure. If cornification is not so apparent, maybe yes it's still not time for estrus and therefore, too early for LH.

And yup I'm assuming she is one to ovulate maybe day 18. Her discharge has lightened to straw color and isn't copious anymore as of 2 days ago. So I'm expecting LH right about this time, ovulation 2 days later, and mating 2 days after then.

I think if you don't start mating till day 22 you will have missed the boat, a season is only suppose to last 21 days and if you are accurate as to when her season started then you are going to be mating on days 22 &24 which is too late.

If she has reached day 18 then take her to the stud, the sperm can live for 5-7days so at least they will be there when her eggs are ready rather than wait till you hope the eggs are ready and then mate her.

Here is the original site for the ovulation pads

http://www.ovulationpads.info/

> I think if you don't start mating till day 22 you will have missed the boat, a season is only suppose to last 21 days and if you are accurate as to when her season started then you are going to be mating on days 22 &24 which is too late.
>
> If she has reached day 18 then take her to the stud, the sperm can live for 5-7days so at least they will be there when her eggs are ready rather than wait till you hope the eggs are ready and then mate her.
>
> Here is the original site for the ovulation pads
>
> [url=undefined]http://www.ovulationpads.info/[/url]

Hi Rodach,

Yup, I do understand. On one hand I wanna mate her just so I don't miss the boat since the average heat length is 21 days. I'm inclined to mate her by Tuesday.

This is because I did mate her on days 10, 12, and 14 during her past 2 heats, which didn't result in a pregnancy. So assuming the lifespan of sperm (I'll use 3 days here to be conservative), her eggs weren't ready by day 17. So I'm to mate her starting day 16, then 18 so we're good until day 21.

Moreover, 21 is the average and some dogs go up until 28 days. To me, if she were an average timed dog, she'd have puppies by now from my last attempts. Assuming the problem is mistimed matings, not infertility.

> I think if you don't start mating till day 22 you will have missed the boat, a season is only suppose to last 21 days and if you are accurate as to when her season started then you are going to be mating on days 22 &24 which is too late.
>
>

The average season lasts 21 days with the average bitch ovulating days 10 - 12.

Lots of bitches aren't average and litters intentionally and unintentionally result from matings days 21 - 28 or so.

Some bitches also are different with each season.

I mated my Inka in USA Dec 2010 on days 14, 16 and 18 and she whelped 63 days from the second mating.

I tried mating her in March 2012, from day 15, and up to day 18 the stud was getting more and more interested but was adamant she wasn't ready, unfortunately he wasn't available after that. 

He mated her half sister a week or so later on days 18 - 22, (she has been that late for previous litters) and a large litter was conceived and 7 live pups resulted.

None of my own bitches (7 bitches bred from so far) has had a litter to a mating earlier than day 15, and rarely go 63 days so assume they actually take later.

This is why I always advise that bitches are kept away from any male dogs until at least day 28 from start of season.

Oh also I have never had bitches flow go to straw colour at mating time, they usually bleed right through getting heavier around mating time and tapering off, and some have bled fro up to 30 days with nothing being wrong.  Have also had fertile seasosn with very little bleeding

> The average season lasts 21 days with the average bitch ovulating days 10 - 12.
>
> Lots of bitches aren't average and litters intentionally and unintentionally result from matings days 21 - 28 or so.
>
> Some bitches also are different with each season.
>
> I mated my Inka in USA Dec 2010 on days 14, 16 and 18 and she whelped 63 days from the second mating.
>
> I tried mating her in March 2012, from day 15, and up to day 18 the stud was getting more and more interested but was adamant she wasn't ready, unfortunately he wasn't available after that. 
>
> He mated her half sister a week or so later on days 18 - 22, (she has been that late for previous litters) and a large litter was conceived and 7 live pups resulted.
>
> None of my own bitches has had a litter to a mating earlier than day 15, and rarely go 63 days so assume they actually take later.

Hi Brainless

With your late-ovulating bitches, how are their physical behavior with regards to their stage in the cycle? Were they still having bloodier discharge even up to day 14 assuming an extend proestrus? With their vulva, was it still enlarged or was it soft already?

Just so I may compare. My bitch has been having less discharge, straw colored, as of the last 2.5 days. Her vulva though is still hard.

My girls vulvas soften at around the time they have been mated, so often if I am thinking oh maybe I should try earlier (because they have been mounting each other with gusto), but invariably they have not been ready until the swelling has gone down considerably, and totally from the perineal area.

As for colour and quantity of discharge I totally ignore it, other than to mark day one when I first see colour, as it has never been an indicator of anything in mine re timing.

> My girls vulvas soften at around the time they have been mated, so often if I am thinking oh maybe I should try earlier (because they have been mounting each other with gusto), but invariably they have not been ready until the swelling has gone down considerably, and totally from the perineal area.
>
> As for colour and quantity of discharge I totally ignore it, other than to mark day one when I first see colour, as it has never been an indicator of anything in mine re timing.

Thanks Brainless. My girl's perineal area is still firm, although the lower part of her vulva is beginning to soften, like it's more droopy in a way. Still with either a straw or diluted red discharge.

Hi all

Day 14's pad:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2pqw55t.jpg

Opinions?

What a science you appear to be making of the natural process of reproduction. 
My opinion would be that a bitch that has proved this difficult to get in whelp would not be one that I would be considering continuing a line from.

> What a science you appear to be making of the natural process of reproduction. 
> My opinion would be that a bitch that has proved this difficult to get in whelp would not be one that I would be considering continuing a line from.

Hi.
I'm simply ruling out reasons why she won't get pregnant, and I'm tackling one that is most common--mistiming.
She may ovulate later than the textbook bitch, which is not so uncommon anyway.

I believe a lot of dogs may seem infertile when they just ovulate differently in terms of time. The same way GSDs tend to have cycles per 4-5 months than the usual 6 months.

If this won't cause her to conceive, despite changing the timing from her previous breeding, then fine, it's likely not just a case of mistimed matings but an infertility problem of some sort.

> I believe a lot of dogs may seem infertile when they just ovulate differently in terms of time.

I'm sure that is the case but if they were consistantly excluded from breeding lines there would probably be a lot less.

> I'm sure that is the case but if they were consistantly excluded from breeding lines there would probably be a lot less.

Ok. Though I think that these things are not always genetic. Being in a home with many bitches can cause heat cycles to go shorter or longer.
But yes, I do understand your concern.

Hi all

Day 15: http://i48.tinypic.com/2hcj87s.jpg
Hmmm she is taking her time, if based on the pads.

Maybe that's why mating her at day 14 the last 2 times resulted to no pregnancy. If the sperm survived 4 days, that's already 18. So she wasn't ready still by then.

I hope your backing this up by taking her to the male, or using a male to test his reaction, or watching her behaviour etc.

would it actually be possible to mate and achieve a tie so early before shes ovulating, was the male clueless?

Day 16:
http://i47.tinypic.com/10mpz47.jpg

Since i track no changes in general, I've scheduled a mating at Day 18 and 20.
As both matings at day 14 during the last 2 heats resulted to no pregnancy, I guess having her mated day 18 will cover the parts both previous matings couldn't cover. I'm guessing she's more fertile on the latter parts as my male dog is more interested in her today than the previous days.

Some bitches will stand before ovulation at about the time of the LH surge, and sadly some owners/stud dog owners will ensure a mating takes place as long as the male will perform, such males often never learn to gauge a bitch as they are only ever presented with a bitch for a short time, and don't learn by courtship that a bitch may mean no.

One of my mentors always liked to have a bitch to stay from around day 8, which in our breed was likely to be about 5 days before she was likely to be ready if not more.  The dog was allowed to try and court the bitch, with both free, this way the dog got rebuked, and learnt to accept this, and after initial excitement would keep an eye on her, check her each morning and if not ready go off about his business.

The male always had the bitch within sight so he wasn't worried that someone else would get his girl, but of course their time together was supervised.

This way the dog learnt his job and by mating time the bitch was also more settled, and usually more than happy to be mated, and only needing holding during the tie, in case she found this irksome/worrying.

She rarely had bitches miss to her studs who had stayed with her.

In an ideal world this would be perfect but being burnt in the past not knowing whether my bitch has been mated. I wont leave her, but instead take over for introductions from day 8. this time took her over from day 11, 13, Mated at day 15, 17 so just wait and see now.

Makes a difference if you know and trust the stud dog owners.  I know that in USA it is not unusual for stud owner to take a photo of the tie for the owners of bitches that are shipped.

Hi guys. The pad changed color about 2 days ago. It's still a dark grey color until now, which is making it difficult to me to pinpoint the specific day it is the LH peak. So since I'm predicting ovulation tomorrow, we've scheduled her to the stud.

Then 3 days later, will try again since by then, eggs would be sperm friendly based on the "4 days post LH" rule.

what is her behavior like is she flagging, soft vulva etc etc?

Hi

We had her first mating and she was coorperative!
Which is a surprise because during our last matings with the stud on days 10 to 14 during previous heats, she'd squirm and look miserable.

Her vulva's not as swollen as before. It's Day 20 today. We'll have another mating on Day 22--estimated day ovulated eggs have matured enough to acceptf sperm.

I'd want to try again on day 22, and if she is happy to mate would try her the next day to be sure she has gone over (stud and she should be disinterested, she should make it plain she wants no more).

Yup we're going back on Day 22.
Checked her pad today as well. The deep grey color change has passed and it's pink again.
My other male dog is crazy now.