Overheard at a show (by someone who also judges):  'that dog shouldn't have won the CC - they haven't been in the showring or bred anything for ages.  It should have been given to someone more deserving'.

Are complete unknowns to the judge ever given a CC or is there an element of deserving/earning it.  Is the above a commonly held belief?

Without more context it is v hard to say, ultimately it doesn't sound like an unknown winning the CC, more like a face with an inappropriate dog ;-)

Sorry, to more fully answer, every breed is different ( shouldn't be. But is) however in many breeds it is possible for new and unknown people to win CC's yes

Happens often in my breed, newcomers winning well, then there are those who have been in the breed decades who rarely win anything much, but still happily keep showing and making a positive contribution.

Very much a matter for the judge, some go for type, some for the popular dog and others judge to the standard. Now if a judge judges to their interpretation of the standard then a beginners dog will win on occasion as it will if the judge only looks for type but the judge that either goes for a dog that looks like theirs or has be well rewarded in the past may well over look the newcomers dog at least until someone draws it to their attention to it as being good then they may well jump on the bandwagon.

>It should have been given to someone more deserving'.

Am I reading this right? The ringside 'judge' would happily NOT have given it to someone just because they weren't a face? They would have given it to someone who had been in the breed for a while, whether their dog deserved it or not? Don't think I would want to go under that judge then.

It shouldn't matter whether they've done anything for the breed in a few years, it's the dog that counts and if it was the best one on the day then yes it deserved it. 

This really angers me, as someone new to showing I have to believe that I have a chance every time I enter the ring or else what is the point.

I see the same faces[handlers]win alot but get really excited if someone fresh gets a win, they may not be a newbie but someone who has carried on showing in the hopes that one day they would get there.

To hear of a judge making such a comment in public when they don't know who may over hear then I would want to report them as they should not be allowed to judge again with that way of thinking, it is the dog at the end of the leash being judged or should be not the face of the handler.

Many a time I have thought that the dogs and handlers should swap out of sight of the judge before entering the ring and then the judge would really be looking at the dog.

I won a CC with my first ever dog at 14 months in a very popular breed (he got BOB from 250 dogs), so it is possible - crooked judging isn't as common as the bad losers make out, though of course it does exist. The thing is that it's unusual and often tricky for newcomers to get that top dog! :-)

>crooked judging isn't as common as the bad losers make out

Spot on! :-) Ringside judges should always be taken with a pinch of salt.

The OP says this person is actually a judge not just someone sat on the sidelines putting their two penny worth in as we all do at times, the key thing being we have no way of altering any judgements made then or in the future unless we aspire to become judges ourselves and majority don't.

No, the OP says the person who overheard also Judges. The OP didn't hear the comment first hand, which is why I mentioned context in my first post :-)

Spot on! :-) Ringside judges should always be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Too true JG - IMO from the ringside you can pick out the bad dogs those with poor conformation or movement you can also see showmanship, what you can not do from the ringside is find that really well built, well moving, workmanlike example that should be considered on equal terms to the flashy showman. 

> what you can not do from the ringside is find that really well built, well moving, workmanlike example that should be considered on equal terms to the flashy showman.

Have to disagree with you there, although I cant see inside the mouth, I do watch very carefully, positioning myself on a line the judge uses for watching movement and, on the contrary, I often see appaling movement which is still rewarded.
In fact at the last show I attended I watched the judge move his shortlists individually and gave the first to the worst mover in each case, handled by the most well known handler.

I am still however, of the shared opinion with Jeangenie that ringside judges are often to be taken with a pinch of salt but in some cases its blatant and obviously not judging the dogs.

I suppose thats what makes these occasions stand out for me.... such a shame because I do believe the cream does come to the top in all breeds.

I've heard in one breed that even if you start to do well as a newbie the breed specialists will soon put you down to 'teach you a lesson'....This actually happened to my friend and was told by someone in the breed why she wasn't winning anymore, not because her dog wasn't good enough, it was and more but because she had to learn she couldn't win everything...

There are some old timer breed specialists in many breeds who won't look beyond a face and its blatent in their judging and watching where their eyes are looking!!

terrible judging happens all the time from inside and outside the ring,

but if the dog was the best on the day it deserves the cc, not if the owner is well known on the end of the lead gives no one a definate right to have a cc on the day but it does happen and have seen it happen,

a dog was lame the judge sent it around twice , then told the owner up and down , then said to the owner see if going a bit slower makes the limp stop, then asked them to move the dog faster to see if that helped it, the other two dogs in the class where sound , by this time people around the ring where starting to make comments about what was going on and yes this limping dog took the cc , next week dog asked to leave the ring by a judge as it was still limping and judge said they thought something was wrong with the dog, it is still being shown in the ring still limping and still winning under certain judges.

so who is correct the owner going under certain judges so she can get a champion ?
the judges who give it the cc even though it is still limping ?
or us for putting up with it and not reporting when we see it happening ?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">so who is correct the owner going under certain judges so she can get a champion ?<br />the judges who give it the cc even though it is still limping ?<br />or us for putting up with it and not reporting when we see it happening ?

The owners if they have any self respect and morals wouldn't put a lame dog in the ring..
The judges are at fault for even considering that it should be placed let along awarding it with high honours!!!
And the only way to report it is if it is witnessed by the committee or you film the whole time the dog was in the ring, as evidence is needed...
Either way the judges need to be stronger if such idiotic owners/handlers think they can win with a lame dog...Or at least go to specsavers.. I honestly believe some judges can't actually see very well and need to hang up their judging crown!!

The owners if they have any self respect and morals wouldn't put a lame dog in the ring.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of owners who seem unaware that their dogs are lame, sometimes it is temporary but at others they are lame because of poor construction in which case the owners perhaps do not notice because they are used to seeing it.

One such incident I was in the ring with a dog which literally hobbled around the ring, I mentioned it to the owner after they had been seen by the judge as asked if the dog was ok. They knew it was lame when it went in, got worse being in the ring and still refused to leave and got placed 3rd in a Crufts qualifying class!!! Beyond a joke!!! Yes the dog is nice, but not lame its not!!

I can feel when my dogs are lame and I personally would want to be told if mine had gone lame and i hadn't for some reason noticed. I myself have wtihdrawn after my dog went lame going round a ring at a ch show.. If my dog is lame it means to me its likely to be in pain too.. Beyond being any fairness in that.. Seriously not fit for any function!!

The OP says this person is actually a judge not just someone sat on the sidelines putting their two penny worth in

Yes this is correct Rhodach. I was the person who overheard the top judge (not the judge on the day) say this regarding another show's results.

The inference was that you have to serve a sort of apprenticeship before you can get your dog to the top.  So under this judge a newbie wouldn't stand a chance. 

It was overheard at a show where there seemed to be a lot of disillusioned people anyhow - so it was just what I didn't want to hear, but did sort of confirm my suspicions.

I've heard in one breed that even if you start to do well as a newbie the breed specialists will soon put you down to 'teach you a lesson'....This actually happened to my friend and was told by someone in the breed why she wasn't winning anymore, not because her dog wasn't good enough, it was and more but because she had to learn she couldn't win everything...  you can almost see their point, but it's just not fair play - as Rhodach says, you need to believe that you have every chance of winning when you enter the ring.

I wonder if your friend continued showing?

oo true JG - IMO from the ringside you can pick out the bad dogs those with poor conformation or movement you can also see showmanship, what you can not do from the ringside is find that really well built, well moving, workmanlike example that should be considered on equal terms to the flashy showman.

I really agree with this, my boy is on 2 cc's but as he isnt as glam as my CH boy he is often overlooked by the ones who simply go for beauty, yet i think he has some of the best construction in our breed atm (which most of my cc giving friends will agree) my other boy is very glam and flashy and often wins based on when he is first often spotted in the line up and i feel hes often been forgiven for not putting his all in and therefore i find him least satisfying to win with.

As for having to serve a apprenticship i feel if you have a good dog you have a chance, i have done lots of winning with my first homebred dog and everyone seems geniunily pleased apart from one judge i was in direct competion with a dog she bred for dog of the year and like a fool she told a friend she didnt give him the cc on purpose. I try to take it as a compliment.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I wonder if your friend continued showing?

Changed breeds and felt that it was very different in the one she is in now..

I find that just recently judges have become a lot LOT hotter on movement etc since the KC keep repeating to them that they must not give awards to dogs that aren't 100 % fit. We see a lot more awards withheld and a lot more importance placed on movement and temperament with the less than prefect dogs no longer getting top awards. This has literally been in the last 6 months or so.

Sadly some people don't seem to care about the welfare of their dogs as much as they do about winning, so they drag lame dogs out again and again :-(

There are definitely honest judges out there though - at a recent champ show at the other end of the country I took someone else's bitch with me, which hadn't been out for a couple of years - I gave her BoB at a recent open show and was then more than happy to show her.  The judge very obviously didn't have a clue who either of us were yet handed us the CC!  She was surprised and delighted afterwards to find out who the dog was - she gave both the dam and the dam's brother CCs in the past.  Now that's judging to type!

Personally I hate it when some one says to me "oh you so deserved it, you've worked so hard, you've earnt it"
I know they mean well when they say it but it's not about ME winning its my dog!

I'm unknown to those who haven't been around the champ show rings for 5 years ish and Razzle's 2nd & 3rd CC's came from people who hadn't a clue who I was or who the dog was and 3 of his RCC's were also people who didn't know us. Afterwards they all asked who is he? whats his breeding. Which made those awards mean so much more to me :)

Maybe the people just had a bunch of sour grapes in their mouths? ;)

I think someone has hit an interesting nail on the head here when they say that generally newbies to the scene or to a breed will find it difficult to get a top prospect pup whereas known faces will get one. You can be lucky sometimes (i have been and have an amaaaaaazing pup at home) but i was also routinely ignored by more 'famous breeders' because they don't 'know' me.

In my toy breed it is extremely difficult to obtain a good, show quality puppy... the odd male puppy sometimes but seldom a bitch. It so easy for a breeder to keep another pick of litter to see how it turns out.
Consequently most newcomers to the breed take not so good pups into the ring, no doubt already informed by their friends that they are fab and judges are all 'facey'. Many new people havent got their eye in for type and movement and think their goose is a swan.
This in turn leads to much bitterness and sour grapes.

To cap it off they then breed from their pet bitch hoping to get something 'stunning'(this seldom happens in this breed) furthering the newcomers disillusionment.

A newcomer with a good dog will win IMO.

Exactly - I was a newcomer with a good dog and I won plenty! I'm just having more trouble winning with my 'ok quality' dogs that I have now. Perhaps in the future I will be able to get another good one. I totally understand that the breeders want to keep the best, they went to the effort of producing the litters - but it does make it hard for those of us who haven't managed to get a good one yet. :-)

Consequently most newcomers to the breed take not so good pups into the ring, no doubt already informed by their friends that they are fab and judges are all 'facey'. Many new people havent got their eye in for type and movement and think their goose is a swan.
This in turn leads to much bitterness and sour grapes.


And, effectively, all those people calling judges facey, are saying that the dogs that DO win don't deserve to do so -which is a great big insult.

I've come across plenty of facey judges and I have no issues with calling them facey, some have done nothing for me as some have done me ok... But  not saying some of these dog's deserve their places or awards, but on that day I personally didn't think they deserved it or maybe some did...Each show dogs show differently and this is what I take umbridge with... Watching one judge watching the handlers and not the dog meant I just walked away from the show, it was awful and not just me who saw that either!!

There are good decent honest judges and then there are those who aren't for various reasons!!

Ive been told before i was showing there was one dog who won everything as the judges were to scared to not give it to him, because of that people stopped entering their dogs so there wasnt any studs. I think thats terrible. I sometimes wonder when you see these dogs in other breeds on 40-60 tickets.. folk must get really fed up.

>people stopped entering their dogs so there wasnt any studs.

No studs? They were still there - people just had to do a bit more research, rather than using the big winners in the ring, that's all, thus avoiding 'popular stud syndrome' and keeping the gene pool open.

I think much may depend on the breed club and who the 'leaders' are, they set the tone and culture and if they are seen to be fair others follow suit. I am fairly certain that some breed clubs are a lot more honorable than others.

I know of a breed club where the Chair owns a big winner. There is a definite rivalry with other leading names in the club in chasing 'breed firsts' and to have the biggest winner in history and so on. The animal in question is in the 30 cc region but is still trotted out at shows around the country and both owner and dog are so well known that the chances of them not winning is unlikely. On the one hand if the dog is so good arguably it should win but many would say there are other dogs as good, so part of the winning story is down to handling and reputation alone. After so many cc's should the owner retire the dog or keeping chasing history?

>  There is a definite rivalry with other leading names in the club in chasing 'breed firsts' and to have the biggest winner in history and so on. The animal in question is in the 30 cc region but is still trotted out at shows around the country and both owner and dog are so well known that the chances of them not winning is unlikely

I show in a very competetive breed where the breed record holders...40+CC each ( dog and bitch) are still being actively being shown... the bitch at every single championship show.
I have made up 2 bitches and there have been 4 or 5 others during that time, she is beatable.

I truly believe that this is why the standard of dogs is so high in some breeds. Champion classes would make us like the USA where, if you drag a dog around long enough, you can make anything up!

>Champion classes would make us like the USA where, if you drag a dog around long enough you can make anything up!

Exactly - sometimes without even meeting another of the same breed!

In one weekend my young junior bitch won a class of 28 while her brother beat ONE other dog in the US to get points towards his Ch status...

It's daft, isn't it? How can the two titles possibly be comparable in terms of merit?

But if the dog or Bitch was not worthy surely the judge could withold the CC. Not very nice, but it would ensure that only quality dogs earned CC's. Then the trophy hunters would be competeing for BOB & Group awards and not blocking others from gaining there title.

> sometimes without even meeting another of the same breed!

Don't think that can happen as you need 3 majors to make up a champion.

different areas have different requirements of numbers present to make a major, ti can be as little as 3 dogs.

I agree though would not want a champions class, I want the CC to go to the best of sex on the day.

Our breed record holder still being exhibited has over 50CC's and we only have 19 a year.  He has never won more than half of them in any year, so other dogs can still be made up.  A dog I bred who is now 14 has 2CC's and a RCC behind this dog, a shame he didn't get made up, but his owner treasures that RCC behind such a good dog.

I do think Multiple RCC's should count towards a title, perhaps 3 for a CC with the dog winning at least one actual  CC as an adult (Good youngsters can pick up RCC's).

I think, human nature being what it is, judges will be very reluctant to withhold major awards when they're face to face with the owners. At cat shows it's more common, because the owners are all out of the room when judging takes place (although friends saw some very rough handling when watching through a window, so stopped showing their cat even though he'd been a very big winner).

Im amazed that people are so confident on the subject of witholding CC.

In many breeds, most of the exhibitors are judges..... and the judges are the exhibitors the following week.
Very few people are so strong in character as to not mind upsetting so many people.

I think, human nature being what it is, judges will be very reluctant to withhold major awards when they're face to face with the owners. At cat shows it's more common, because the owners are all out of the room when judging takes place

Very true indeed. I see more judges withholding this year and I applaud them for it and I have said so in my breed notes as well -coming from a cat background I can only see positives to that. I just wish MORE judges would do it. However plenty of people don't agree and indeed are annoyed with me for speaking my mind. (And on a tangent, titled cats now CANNOT be shown in the Open class and even though judges frequently withhold, it has made it too easy to gain the title of Champion as you never have to beat top winners for it.)

Like tooolz I find that the record holders CAN be beaten. In my main breed at the moment one dog is winning every ticket and has done so for some time -well he's the best, so get something to beat him with!  I am sure that if I was in the same situation, I would not stop showing a YOUNG dog that is doing incredibly well and enjoying his shows. There is no male dog around at the moment that can beat this one, but although he is almost always BOB, he has been beaten to BOB by the bitch on occasion -once by a bitch of my own breeding. Makes the win that much more special I'd say.

I hate the American mentality (seen both in dogs and cats) where breeders say things like "I won't mate her up until she has made Champion" -taking the title for granted. It makes it worthless as far as I am concerned.

People can be a bit two faced here as well. When my Ripley won her first CC, which happened to also be MY first CC in dogs, it was out of a very small entry indeed -back when we had tickets at Belfast. 3 entries!! So people talked. She only got it because there was no competition. That was NOT nice to hear at all -and yet many of these people want a Champion class to REMOVE the competition?! (As many of you know, Rip then proved her worth when she got her third ticket at Crufts beating existing Champions, proving that first was no fluke!!)

In many breeds, most of the exhibitors are judges..... and the judges are the exhibitors the following week.
Very few people are so strong in character as to not mind upsetting so many people.

Yes this is it -it must be a VERY hard situation to be in, which is why I think very highly of those that still do it. It's not nice to be withheld on, but it instantly makes all the other awards under the same judge mean that much more.

I've never judged dogs, but I know how much easier it is to judge small animals in the UK compared to in other countries. Here, you get the cages placed in front of you by a steward with no owner in sight. In many countries abroad, the owners carry them to the judge themselves, and it really is VERY hard to be as frank in the critiques when the owner stands next to you! But it can be done.

I think face judging is a lot less common than people think. After all a good dog who fits the standard should win well. There is obviously a group of judges who preferr a different type and so at shows you will see a good  dog win every week untill it meets a judge that likes a slightly different type when another dog will take the top award, so all dogs have a chance under different judges.Those showers who have been in thier breeds a long time will know just who to enter under and will pick judges with the knowledge of many years behind them. It does not mean the judges are not being fair but the owners know they like thier type.
Of course I think in every breed their are the corrupt judges who do give high awards to friends. I think they are few and far between though but they do exist. They often have smaller entries because those in the know will not enter under them. The new faces will not be awair and will enter and be dissapointed.
I was vitually unknown when Merlot was winning so well and she gained her Ch and more CC's to boot. She is a dog who will win well under some judges and be chucked out with others. I just entered whichever shows were in my region and took what came. However she showed her worth and won on her merits.
I would like to see a Champions class though but I think the winner should then go forward into the CC challenge. A sort of compromise.
Aileen

There is a bitch in my breed who has must be nearer 70 CC's now, it was only when she "disappeared" for 4 months did any others get a look in, she has never been bred from,don't know whether they tried and failed, she is in the veteran classes now and the CC's are more evenly spread out again, as a newbie I wouldn't have bothered entering any class she was likely to have been in,the cost knowing it was a fruitless attempt is too much these days with petrol etc., the seasoned show folk were down hearted, some concentrated on their male show dogs instead.

I can see they were going for the breed record and more than surpassed it but I would be so embarrassed to think my dog was stopping others from reaching the champ status she reached and may be too old to achieve by the time mine retired.

Most Champs I know semi retire [Crufts and special occasions only] before they reach double figures of CC's so new dogs can then be brought out to carry on the good works.

toolz,

the best dog should always win, there can be no other way. I guess the problem is where one dog keeps winning and although some might feel that there are other dogs as good, or better, that they are not brave enough to put them up against the might of a leading light in the club, especially if that person is known to have 'words' with people afterwards, castigating them for poor judgement etc..

It is a tricky one and I do feel so much is down to the club 'leaders' being honorable and honest in what they do.

> I do feel so much is down to the club 'leaders' being honorable and honest in what they do

'club 'leaders' being honorable and honest'
Dont you think that in a very commercialised breed (one which could potentially keep a breeder in comfort from puppy sales and studs for a long time)......this could be  considered an oxymoron? ;-)

Toolz,

I know....I've always been far too idealistic.

(Freelancer seeks canine utopia).

We are dinosaurs my dear ! :-)

> I would like to see a Champions class though but I think the winner should then go forward into the CC challenge.

Then what would be the point, if they still go in the challenge as they do now out of open, the only thing it would do is give unsure judges and easy cop out by giving the CC to a dog they knew was a champion, rather than now where often some give it to the Open winner assuming it must have won well.

Some exhibitors who know the judge is unsure and only awards to Open will put dogs in Open that have not won out of lower classes hoping to win, and good luck to them.

Also as in the US BOB would almost always go to an existing champion.