Just out of intrest is it classed as OK to mate the bitch in her second season if she is old enough and if the breeder thinks she is mature enough too?

If the bitch is over two years old in most breeds thrn yes.

In my main breed the club rules are no bitch to be mated "before her third season or second birthday, whichever is soonest" which makes a lot of sense to me for a larger breed.

I too follow the 3rd season/2yrs old rule, I worry that mentally she is not mature enough to cope with raising pups, some bitches never cope but leaving it longer means you can rule out immaturity as being the reason.

If the dog had its first season late and then only one a year it may be OK to mate on the second one, I don't see the rush personally.

I go by the 3 season rule too but was wondering other peoples opinion. I think any younger then 2yrs in most dogs is too young anyway, for maturity and they are still growing too.

I wouldn't mate a bitch before 2 years of age regardless of how many seasons she'd had. What's the rush?

Personally with a larger breed like a Rottie I would wait until nearer 3 years old. I feel larger dogs need longer to mature. the 3 seasons / 2 years rule is a minimum age, not something that is necessarily recommended.

> I wouldn't mate a bitch before 2 years of age regardless of how many seasons she'd had. What's the rush?

I totally agree with you Jeangenie but there are some, mainly in toy breeds that disagree with this & say 18 months!!!

You have to remember toys mature FAR quicker and the smallest can have problems if left until 2.

>You have to remember toys mature FAR quicker and the smallest can have problems if left until 2.

A fair point. But most breeds aren't toys - they are an exception.

> But most breeds aren't toys - they are an exception.

But they should still be considered according to their needs. And there are 23 Toy breeds so not that much of an exception. 

I agree smaller breeds do mature quicker, my own doesn't need age defined health tests doing which would mean leaving them till they are much older to have their first litter.

My newest girl had her first season at 8 months old her second at 14.5 months old so based on that gap I expect her 3rd one to start around 21months old, mated approx 2 weeks later, whelp after 9 weeks making her a week or so short of her 2nd birthday when she has her pups but knowing my luck she will keep me waiting.

You can't put all breeds into the same pigeon hole as to when they are mature enough to breed from, those used to breeding only large breeds may be horrified but that doesn't make it wrong.

One of THE most famous repro specialist vets in the US advises bitches should be mated young and back to back for 3 seasons then stop.

Speaking ONLY from a repro point of view presumably and working on the 'young and healthy uterus and ova' stand point.... he is convinced its the best way.

I doubt whether he factors in late onset health conditions and human sensibilities :(

Many dachsie breeders in the US in it for the money do back to back breeding and retire the bitches very young, some will breed for 2 seasons and rest for one[not always without problems in either option] but knowing how long my girls take to get back into condition the thought of mating them again when they come back into season when the pups are about 17 weeks old is not something I could or would want to do, luckily over the years I have managed to weed out the ones doing this and only communicate with those breeding to better the breed not line their pockets, less cute puppy pics but better for the dogs.

Scientist don't always have the welfare of the animals upper most in their plans.

A fair point. But most breeds aren't toys - they are an exception.

I was replying to Lexie who seemed to think it odd (considering the amount fo exclamation marks) that some toy breeders say 18 months for a first litter.

>there are some, mainly in toy breeds that disagree with this & say 18 months!!!

That would be me then.  :-)

Whenever I have heard of people mating my breed at 2 or 3 years old, it has always meant trouble.  All my girls are spayed by 4 years old, and, if a litter is wanted, I prefer my bitches mated on the second season.  If I have left it to the third, it has inevitably lead to a c-section.

Not all my bitches have had litters, but those that have, have had really easy whelpings when mated at a second season.  I don't do back to back, and have only ever had 3 litters out of one of my bitches that has 2 pups each time.  It isn't a breed that benefits from waiting.  I say this with experience, having spent many years working on a self whelping line. 

This may not be the case with all toy breeds, it is just my experience with Chihuahuas.  When people ask to use one of my boys on a 3 year old bitch that has never whelped, I refuse, considering it cruel.