Hi,

In the past my husband and I have both had english springers from pups. We have two small children and I am keen to get a dog now as I am currently at home and able to train a pup. I go back to work in March 4 days a week but I only work 5 mins away so can come home at lunch for a walk.

So ideally I am looking for a smaller dog, preferably shorter hair that is quite robust and good with kids. Dogs that are easier to train would be a bonus. I will be able to do 4 walks a day plus longer walks at weekends. We have an elderly cat so terriers probably would be less well suited.

Breeds I have considered include shih tzus, pugs, border terriers (although not sure they are suitable). I did get quite far in looking at Lhasa Apsos but after some more digging and research I am less convinced they will be a good fit with young kids and they are quite high maintenance hairwise.

I was very keen on the Bolognese, but they are very hard to find, especially as we live in Edinburgh.

I would appreciate any advice!

a whippet?

Thank you, I hadn't really considered a whippet, I always thought they needed long walks. Might go add them to my research list!

Greyhounds and whippets are more sprinters, greyhounds especially enjoy a walk or two in the day (perhaps 20 min each depending on the dog) and will laze on the sofa for the rest of the day. I believe whippets are more active but still substantially less than say a spaniel.

Swedish Valhund, Whippet, Defintely a well bred typical Border Terrier,

Of all the terrier breeds, I would say the border terrier is the most suitable for young families, so definitely a breed worth considering. Cavaliers make the perfect pet dog for families with (respectful) children but I notice your preference is for shorter hair. Mind you, I don't think a cavalier would appreciate being left 4 days a week, even if you can pop back for lunch.

Do you both like springers as if yes why not another one ?

Why a smaller dog ?

Smaller, what about a cocker?  Mind you none of the spaniels I know would welcome being left regularly during the day.

The Vallhunds coat might not suit the OP as they have a double coat. Also there aren't any breeders in Scotland.

I thought that about the springers too. 

Papillons are fantastic fun outgoing little dogs too with plenty of brains.  Although they are long haired they are not hairy in the way that Lhasas and shih tsus are.  A word of warning re shih tsus, they are lovely dogs and my OH has one but she is not designed for long walks, she has such short little legs bless her half an hour with my two is 45 minutes if she comes along.  If you like Lhasas why not have one and keep it trimmed rather than in full coat?

Thanks for the advice everyone.

We do love springers but in the past we could give them a good hour to two hours walking a day and I'm not sure if four short walks would be enough for them. Saying that, between walks my last springer could be quite lazy round the house and was amazing with kids.

I'm a bit worried about eye problems with the cavaliers, might have a closer look at cockers.

Off to have a study at the orher suggestions too.

Brain training!  It's a far better wearing out thing than all day walking

To add, if I went with a lhasa or a shih tzu I would keep a puppy cut.

Border Terrier

I was thinking smaller dog as we generally couldn't do daily big walks, just four shorter walks of 10-20 mins. Also we live in a townhouse with a smaller garden. Also my eldest daughter can be nervy around bigger dogs but she is comfy round smaller ones.

Terriers want just as much exercise if not more than a big dog.  I would say with your 4 short walks doing some heel work as well as free running and walking the dog with purpose rather than just allowing it an off lead run in the park would be plenty.  And 20 mins 4 times a day of retrieving a ball down a hill would probably wear out even a springer lol

I would certainly cross border terriers off your list then as they need a lot of exercise and mental stimulation.  Look at exercise needs rather than size - for instance greyhounds are big dogs who don't need a lot of exercise and are generally happy to sleep most of the day on the sofa... border terriers are little dogs who need a lot of exercise and aren't generally happy sleeping most of the day......

Cairn Terrier - great little dogs and brilliant with kids

Your set up sounds ideal for a greyhound/lurcher/whippet as it happens.

Like all gun dog breeds they love being active but they love down time and so long as they have had some human and other dog interaction whether it be all day or an hour or so they will be fine.

I'd suggest Cavaliers too, more laid back than springers, but up for a good long walk at the weekends. You'd have to spend more time at home with a puppy, but an adult Cavalier is happy to snooze in a bed (or on the sofa!) for a few hours, then have cuddles at lunchtime, then another nap for the afternoon. You have to be careful where you buy, make sure they've been checked for hearts, SM, Dry Eye / Curly Coat and so on, but if you buy from a good breeder you have a good chance of a healthy long lived pet.

If you have an elderly cat a greyhound might not be the best choice.

A pug would be happy with the exercise you can provide with a longer stroll at the weekend, very good nature, great with kids very patient. solid little dogs, or a french bulldog

There are many, many greyhounds who have less interest in cats than a lot of other breeds.

Size is a very poor indicator of exercise requirements, a Border Terrier will want far more exercise than a Whippet will, for example.

I think a sighthound would suit you, but beware that not all sighthounds are sprinters (ie, short burst, snooze rest of the time), some are long distance runners so will want more exercise.

I have to be honest .  I won't sell to anyone that has to leave a dog for 4 days a week.

Even if they pop home at lunchtime.

I think given the OP won't be working at all until March, getting a pup in the next month or so wouldn't be unreasonable, as long as they understand the need to get pup used to being left alone is a priority.

I agree with Jean, I was going to recommend my breed (Mini Schnauzer) but they're long-haired and take a fair bit of grooming, but are great with respectable kids and are happy with a couple of 20 mins walk a day. However they wouldn't be left for four days a week, not until they're adults at least.

Thank you again everyone. I will be home full time until March so could get a pup gradually used to being left for short periods before I actually go back. My husband and I are going to spend the next week doing some more research and looking around for good local breeders so I may be back for a steer.

Yes i also wont sell to fulltime workers, what are your hours? Its selfish to get a dog when you intend to leave it alone for most of the day. i dont work and when i did for a brief period the dogs were alone a lot, child was at nursery for too long. i suppose thats the benefit to being the lady of the house we stop at home and look after the kiddies and dogs, i would also feel i was neglecting my child if i worked. The idea of us wanting children is me at home to take to school/ nursery when old enough and be there to help with homework whilst making tea etc. and having dogs came before kids to enjoy walking and having company when i left home.

LouiseDDb, you are right.  I know of a very depressed Beagle which is in that situation at 9 months(let out at lunchtime but essentially home alone all day).  What about maybe looking at getting 2 dogs? Obviously not 2 pups at the same time but maybe an older rescue and a puppy?  Or you could arrange a puppy walker(who shoud mainly train/play with pup rather than walk) to come in for an hour to break the day up some more?  If you couldn't look at these options, I doubt I would be interested in selling you a pup either(no offence) and I own 2 of the breeds mentioned.
Cockers are great with kids but like walks and company and need a fair bit of grooming compared to the springers.
My springer does really well with a half hour of retrieve in the morning if being left all day.  She will happily snooze on the sofa all day if I'd let her and she is great with the kids.
What about visiting the rescue centres near you?  If you are not bothered about breed, this would be my first port of call.

What about a miniature poodle?  (That's the middle sized poodle, in case you get confused like I used to!).  With the coat kept clipped short, which is pretty easy every few weeks.

I disagree about any hard and fast rules around puppies and working.  It is possible to make ALMOST anything work, given enough determination, time and arranging.  These days that is especially so with the proliferation of services like dog walkers, doggie daycare, pet visits and so on.  Some of the most dog-orientated people I know work full time.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">What about a miniature poodle?

With the intelligance of a poodle i think it would be extremely bored being left whilst owners out of the house (even if it was being exercised 4 times a day). They require a lot of mental stimulation too.

If having coat clipped short the expense of dog grooming needs to be considered or the time it would take to do yourself. Wouldnt recommend in this situation to be honest.

I am doing some research as looking at getting a greyhound (rescue). A sighthound sounds as though it may fit the bill. Friends are in a similar situation to you and their whippet fits in perfectly with their family

I'd be really wary of having a rescue greyhound and a poodle.  Too many times I've seen small fluffy dogs attacked by greyhounds - they have been bred to chase small fluffy things...  They might seem fine at first, or when you are testing them out together, but once the chase instinct has been triggered in the greyhound it will be entirely instinctual and there will be no 'thinking' involved until it is over.

I don't think any breed of dog would be unable to be left, provided it was given enough mental and physical stimulation each day.  From what the OP describes, they are actually offering quite a lot - although saying they're not...

> Its selfish to get a dog when you intend to leave it alone for most of the day

Yes, it certainly is.  Some breeds withdraw into themselves if left alone for hours.  Talk about "home alone." 

We are talking about companion animals here.  Leaving a dog all day is not companionship. 

I live alone, so have no choice about working (damn magic fairy won't pay the mortgage.)  So I have a "dog sitter" who is happy to be in the company of dogs all day.  He lives in an upstairs maisonette with no garden, so spends all day at my place, with far more benefits than his own place.  He loves having the company, and is available to let the dogs out all day long.  Having a lot of dogs I couldn't dare risk any noise if left alone.  I would have the neighbours complaining.  :-(

Thanks again. We leave the house about 8.30, back around 5 and I would be home for about 45 mins at lunch. My in laws would probably take the dog on the day they take my kids, so it would likely be three days at home. We have an excellent dog walker who takes care of the dogs on our street if needed.

Staying home FT would be great but wouldn't keep a roof over our heads.

Please do your own research regarding greyhounds as there is a very antiquated view here that they are unsafe to house with poodles or other small, or even just fluffy dogs. Of course some will be, as will some labradors, but go to a good rescue centre, bring your poodle, talk it through and you will find many many dogs who are perfectly happy to live with her, and also more than happy to be left for a work day 4 times a week. Remember, that the reason so many greyhounds end up in rescue is because they had no interest in chasing the lure.

Papillons are fantastic fun outgoing little dogs too with plenty of brains.  Although they are long haired they are not hairy in the way that Lhasas and shih tsus are.

When neutered they still need  a lot of grooming as the coat changes, becomes thicker, longer and mats easier. I'm spending ages every day on my oldest spayed bitch since she was done -leave it a few days and she is a mass of mats. I was away for a week and my husband didn't have time to groom her, when I came home she was so matted I had to resort to cutting the biggest mats off. They also need bathing at least once a fortnight. Also I would not recommend Papillons with small children around, it's such a big risk that they could be picked up, dropped and break legs. Safer with older children.  But yes, great dogs, that can do pretty much anything! :)

I did not know that.  I wanted one as a pal for Lola but was struggling to find a breeder at the time I was looking and my springy came up and that all worked out in the end.  I think they are fab dogs would have worked to do some compet agility if I had one.  Maybe one day....

Thank you for your concerns Rabid but I dont think you can generalise any breed based on their 'stereotypical' behaviour.

>We are talking about companion animals here.  Leaving a dog all day is not companionship. 

My dogs are a highly active breed known to suffer from separation anxiety without careful management.  They receive a 1.5 hr walk off-lead, every morning, either from myself or from an excellent dog walker.  They are then perfectly content to sleep the rest of the day until 6pm, when they then have a training session with their dinner - followed by a food puzzle each.  To finish the day, they sit with us and watch TV all together, chilling, and have a shorter on lead walk before bed.

They are both extremely happy dogs and they suffer no ill-effects from being left alone most of the day.  On the days when I am home, they sleep and lie around the house, just as they do when I am out.  They behave no differently.

I can't abide this snobbish black-and-white attitude and this blanket response to dogs being left.  Obviously you need to put things in place and plan carefully if you intend to leave any dog alone - and obviously some people leave dogs for far too long, which is a form of neglect and abuse - but any breed which has sufficient mental and physical stimulation on a daily basis can be left - if trained to be ok when left. 

Unfortunately rescue centres have a blanket policy, because they want to ensure that those people who might neglect dogs don't slip through the assessment.  That doesn't mean that people who work full time should not have dogs.  (Puppies, perhaps - but even then, there are many creative solutions these days for puppy owners who work full time - including day care and pet visits through puppyhood.)

>Please do your own research regarding greyhounds as there is a very antiquated view here that they are unsafe to house with poodles or other small, or even just fluffy dogs. Of course some will be, as will some labradors, but

I wouldn't go so far as to say that EVERY SINGLE greyhound is unsafe to live with a small poodle - but if you're choosing a rescue dog and you have the entire selection of the UK's rescue dogs to choose from, I do think you're courting more of a problem than you need to court, by trying to find a greyhound. 

To say that some greyhounds will be problematic with a poodle 'as will some labradors' is to overlook the very different purposes for the breeds!  Greyhounds have been bred, genetically, over many many generations, to chase, pursue, grab and bring down and despatch fast moving, fleeing, living things.  I have seen - with my own eyes - old, retired greyhounds which have been rehomed to pet homes being walked on the beach, off lead - because they never went anywhere in the year their owners had had them - suddenly take off, pursue and destroy a highland terrier.  These 2 dogs have previously never shown any interest in chasing anything - or even in running about much, being old and content to trot with their owners. 

I've also had several greyhounds at training class which are ex-racing greyhounds and extremely aggressive to all other breeds of dog - because they were not well socialised to anything except for other greyhounds, as they grew up in a racing kennel. 

Unless it's all you want, to own a greyhound, and no other breed will do, then I think it's advisable to choose another breed.

So, sure, tell me I'm breedist and this is an 'antiquated' view, but going by what I've witnessed, it's not.  Dogs are bred for different purposes and the different purposes they have been selected for in the past still inform, to a great extent, their personalities and abilities today.  To suggest that there are as many labradors with the tendency to chase small fluffy dogs as there are greyhounds, is plain wrong.  Labradors - after all - are bred to have soft mouths and not to chase!!!

All you have to do is consider that 10 thousand greyhounds disappear in Ireland, far smaller than the UK, per year to imagine the amount that end up in rescue in Ireland and the UK, to suppose from those numbers that you will not be able to find a greyhound suitable to your home, is simply crazy. Similarly, the op should now avoid all the dogs on the restricted breeds list as they are clearly vicious and can't be trusted. Best to contact a rescue centre and find out for yourself about greyhounds, no some wont suit your house, yes many will. Any of my dogs, including the numerous fosters and now deceased greyhounds i have had would have been absolutely fine in your situation. As i've stated before, at shows, my greys share their crates with bichons, chinese crested, boston terriers..... they also live with hens, pet rats, and no problems. They also free run on our local beaches with all manner of small dogs, those eing the most popular breed choices in my area, and one of those was a very successful racer, the others, as you will find out when you contact rescues, did not race much because they had no interest in chasing - a fact which will be extra helpful to the small dog owner.

I'm not interested in online debates, I just hope the OP or anyone else reading the thread will contact a greyhound rescue, search online, or meet a dog themselves before making rash decisions on what this wonderful breed can and can't do.

>They are both extremely happy dogs and they suffer no ill-effects from being left alone most of the day

The OP is talking about a single dog left alone I believe, so not quite the same.

>I can't abide this snobbish black-and-white attitude and this blanket response to dogs being left.

I am no snob.  :-)  And however long adults can be exercised for is really not relevant as this would be a pup, and, hopefully, is going to a home that realises that a pup should not be going for hour long hikes.  And, being young, could spend a lot of time howling.  Which I consider to be cruel.

And I do practise what I preach to be fair.  My dogs are not left alone, and I know a lot of people who waited to own a dog, for the same reason. 

We can have different opinions without making snide remarks about another persons opinions.  I don't have to justify the way I feel.

Mixed feelings about this, to be honest. I have worked full-time but only a 5 min drive away and able to take dogs to work occasionally. If you are dedicated, you can do it - depends on the breed, the dog's individual temperament and what you do with him/her when you are around. A major consideration will be the small children as they will have demands upon your time so hubby will have to play his part in either exercising/entertaining the dog or looking after the kids. IMO Border Terriers can be very full-on (I have had personal contact with 3 different ones, all very bright but demanding) and the Cockers don't generally appreciate being left for long. I have known quite a few Greyhounds - of the current ones, one is not brilliant with dogs, the other is very laid back and calm. I like Cavaliers but you will need to be make sure the parents have been health tested (as with any breed where this is applicable). If you are short of time and may also be taking small children on your walks, I personally would generally tend to avoid hounds (except Whippets and Greyhounds), terriers and the more worky gundogs. Not to upset anyone, as all breeds have their own foibles, but certain breeds are perhaps more straightforward.

Might be a good idea to look for a slightly older dog since if you buy a puppy in the immediate future, he/she will only be around the 8 month old mark when you go back to work, so still quite young and more likely to be bored/get into trouble whilst you are out. I wouldn't necessarily rely on the grandparents to look after both children AND a young dog - that's a big ask and their ways of raising a puppy might not coincide with yours. There are dog sitters/doggy day care/dog walkers etc (I'm one lol) so ways and means round things if you find the right person and can afford it. I'm also assuming that the children will be dog-friendly as well lol.

Sometimes people who work full time spend more time with their dogs than people who keep their show/working dogs in kennels.

Full time workers may also make a consertive effort to stay in or take their dogs with them during evenings and weekends.

On saying that none of my puppies go to full time workers and it's one of the first questions I ask when I have an enquiry.

If you broaden your search to include a rescue, you might want to have a look at http://www.anydogildorescue.org/index.html which is Edinburgh based, there are a few lovely small dogs on there, unfortunately the ones that may have suited the OP are reserved, there was a gorgeous Border Terrier cross that looked ideal.
or
BAWA, Borders Animal Welfare Assoc, I can highly recommend BAWA, they really are very good at assessing dogs and give excellent back up, they only take in about 5 or 6 dogs at a time so are able to give the dogs a lot of attention and socialisation. They are about an hours drive from Edin. [url=http://www.bawa.org.uk/][/url]

Good luck in your search, Edinburgh's a great city to have a dog in, so many lovely places to walk in.

>The OP is talking about a single dog left alone I believe, so not quite the same.

I think it is the same or at least extremely similar (one dog being left and two dogs being left):  Dog-dog companionship is not a replacement for dog-human companionship.  John Bradshaw's excellent book 'In Defence of Dogs' makes this point and the research around it.  Dogs see humans as their main attachment figures usually - not other dogs.  This is why it usually doesn't work to get another dog as a solution for one dog's separation anxiety.

There are some dogs who get attached to other dogs as attachment figures, but they are in the minority and usually it's because people were not around during the time they'd need to be when they were young.

I'm not asking you to justify what you're saying, I'm pointing out that I disagree and don't believe what you're saying is necessarily right.  I know of many people who work full time and compete successfully in various dog sports and are as 'dog' focussed as people come.  Their dogs are happy, healthy and well-adjusted.  I also know people who are at home all day - but because they have a family and cleaning the house, cooking dinner etc etc to do, their dogs are far less stimulated. 

Actually, if you are talking about leaving a dog for a few hours a day and going on shortish 20 minute walks, a greyhound would be right up your alley. They are 40mph couch potatoes and built for sprinting and not endurance.

>There are some dogs who get attached to other dogs as attachment figures, but they are in the minority and usually it's because people were not around during the time they'd need to be when they were young.<br /><br />I'm not asking you to justify what you're saying, I'm pointing out that I disagree and don't believe what you're saying is necessarily right.  I know of many people who work full time and compete successfully in various dog sports and are as 'dog' focussed as people come.  Their dogs are happy, healthy and well-adjusted.  I also know people who are at home all day - but because they have a family and cleaning the house, cooking dinner etc etc to do, their dogs are far less stimulated. 

You're missing my point perhaps.  I am not home all day, but too busy to spend time with dogs.  I work full time from necessity.  And make arrangements for companionship throughout the day. 

Perhaps you do know lots of people with dogs alone all day.  But I find it hard to believe that the dogs are quiet all day.  And it is certainly not fair for dogs to have to cross their legs while thay are alone for 8 hours.  We don't have to go without the loo for that long.  But why that makes me a snob, well I really don't understand.