Rather than hijacking another thread I thought I'd start a new one. :)

I'm genuinely interested as to why some breeders feel the need to go to overseas dogs/use imported semen. Are there really no quality dogs in this country? What do you hope to gain? How can you justify the expense (it's expensive enough as it is)?

My main breed has a huge gene pool in this country and I really can't see the need to travel overseas, there are plenty of quality dogs here.

Tin hat already on, and I await your replies with interest. :)

Well I think that you answered your own question by stating that your breed has a huge gene pool. My breed in contrast has a very small gene pool and with on average only 40 puppies a year born, it is quite difficult to find a suitable stud dog.! I used a dog that had been imported on my bitch and had an excellent litter in temperament and show quality.so this time I will mate her daughter that I kept, to a dog in this country.I was reluctant to travel abroad or use A.I as one of my friends in the breed used A.I on her CH. bitch and unfortunately there were complications and she lost the bitch and all the puppies, which was awful. Incidentally my breed though on the vulnerable native breed list is very popular in other countries so no danger of the gene pool drying up.!

But despite may main breed having a huge gene pool, breeders still opt to venture overseas. I really can't see the need.

I can understand it to some extent with a small gene pool (I also have Sussex Spaniels so am well aware of the implications) and using an imported dog would seem a better option to me personally than going abroad.

Could it be there is a high incidence of a hereditary condition in certain breeds in the UK which has been made worse by staying close to home for studs, those same breeds may not have those problems overseas or to a lesser degree therefore encouraging UK breeders to look farther afield, the Petpassport making this easier.

The poor success rate of AI in this country means it is possibly cheaper and more productive to take the bitch to the stud and get a holiday out of it too.

I have known of at least 2 mini long dachsie males who have been on loan for a period of time to the US from the UK or visa versa, seems to work and they are offered on a limited bases to other bitches during their stay, resulting puppies being offerred to carefully vetted homes already known to the breeder the stud is staying with, there would need to be alot of trust between the participating parties and carefully worded contracts.

Are there really no quality dogs in this country? What do you hope to gain?

Well in my main breed all dogs are related to each other so it's an absolute must to get fresh blood. My next mating will be uncle to niece (the niece being an outcross to an import), for all sorts of very good reasons, after that I will have no option but to go abroad as there is nothing unrelated in the country -bar one dog that already has sired the great majority of all pups born for the last couple of years, so it would be no help at all to use him. Without the possibility to go abroad or to import, the breed would die out here for sure. (Bearing in mind the showlines and working lines are totally separate to each other, as different as two different breeds almost -and we have perhaps 3 or 4 show litters born per year, that's all.)

> Are there really no quality dogs in this country? What do you hope to gain? How can you justify the expense (it's expensive enough as it is)?
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20 years ago we had on average 150 puppy registrations a year, we now are lucky most years to get 50 or more.

For a healthy gene pool you need about 300 registrations assuming a variety of bloodlines.

With such low registration numbers you'd have a job to find any dog without  common ancestors in the first three generations unless trey are imports.

> using an imported dog would seem a better option to me personally than going abroad.

trouble is it is expensive to get a top quality dog (much easier to use a top quality stud).  The temptation is in a breed with small gene pool is for everyone to use the dog, and your back to square one in the next generation, and importantly the stud needs to be housed. 

Many breeders keep only bitches (or can't accommodate more males than they already have), many of those who choose to own males don't breed, so can't justify the expense, especially as a dog in a small gene pool is never going to pay for itself in resulting stud fees.

I with 3 friends imported a male through quarantine 10 years ago, before Pet passports, he sired 8 litters mostly for the 4 of us in the partnership who brought him in.  He is now in an awful large proportion of the dogs alive in the country today.

Just because a breed has large numbers does not always mean a large gene pool, your main breed has an average COI of 9.5% (that's double the COI in my breed) means that the average litters parents are more closely related than first cousins or half uncle to niece etc at 6.25%. 

As this will include all the pet bred litters the COI's may actually be higher in various sub groups of the breed, eg show lines, working lines and BYB/PF litters.

even in Labradors the average COI is higher than first cousins at 6.4%, and there is no breed with higher annual regsitrations.

Surely it's not just about keeping the COI low is it?

I've just checked my own dogs on the KC site and they are: Dobes (Breed Average 5.6%) L 8.1% and H 0.3%, Goldies (B. A. 9.5%) E 8.8% and M 9.3%, finally Sussex (B. A. 18.8%) W 22.7%, so a bit of a mix percentage-wise.

It's not just about keeping the COI low, but that is a huge part of it.

If there is not enough genetic variety in the genepool, recessive genes will be present on both sides and that is when you get unwanted diseases affecting the breed.  You then have no where to go which doesn't have these diseases because the gene pool is so small that the genes are present in all of them.

Genetic variety is HUGELY important for the health of a breed.

Like Brainless says, when someone imports a stud dog of a minority breed, many people in the UK will use that dog and its genes are excessively present in the gene pool.  New genes are urgently needed and can be brought back to the country through the use of a stud dog abroad.

I am going to Holland to use a dog. I find there are nice dogs in the UK but we have a lot of studs over used and many are to close for me. The other thing I have found in a short lived breed as mine is I can get documented dates and ages of death in continental dogs that I cannot in the UK. We have around 700 pups reg a year so our gene pool is not huge and the top dogs are used time and time again. I am looking to bring some fresh bloodlines in and have 2 males booked to owners who will show and hopefully if all is OK use at limited stud. There are just a handfull of dogs who are used on a regular basis in the UK.
Aileen

Like Brainless says, when someone imports a stud dog of a minority breed, many people in the UK will use that dog and its genes are excessively present in the gene pool.

This is why I can't or won't use a particular import in my breed (there has only been 2 male imports in recent years, one of which is my own) despite him being pretty much unrelated to all my dogs. He's sired 8 litters in the UK and 2 in Ireland. That's a huge amount for my breed. Other breeders are going to have to go abroad or import as all their bitches will be too closely related to available dogs. Don't get me wrong, this dog has produced some absolutely fantastic dogs, but I'm very glad I've not used him myself as now I am able to stay clear and should I ever be unable to go abroad, I have a very big chance of being able to find a dog in the UK. At least for one mating.....

Yes there are quality dogs BUT in my case many are closely related, new blood is necessary from time to time even in breeds with high numbers. Imports are often used frequently therefore positive effects can be lost very quickly.

Like Brainless says, when someone imports a stud dog of a minority breed, many people in the UK will use that dog and its genes are excessively present in the gene pool.

Not true in my breed.! The dog that I used imported from New Zealand was shown and became a CH,however he has only been used twice altogether.I am afraid that due to "politics" and kennel blindness most people in my breed will just use the latest big winner. Funnily enough, having said that I too will be using him, because in my case his pedigree ties in so well with my line.....

but in a minority breed even a little used dog can become very influential if several sons and daughters are bred from.

We had one import imported as a veteran only siring three full litters and a singleton that went to a pet home.

Three of his sons have been used at stud, several more daughters also bred from, so as a grandsire and great grandsire he is in quite a lot of dogs pedigrees.

I suppose it all depends on your reasons for breeding?
My breed doesnt have a very big gene pool but it is getting slightly better with the importing of dogs being made easier.  My Ch bitch has just been confirmed in pup after I took her to a stud in Germany, earlier this year I imported chilled semen from Sweden which wasnt successful. 
"As for how can you justify the expence" Most people are not breeding to make money but improve on what they already have. The chances of a quality dog living close by, having a suitable pedigree and that will compliment the bitch are usually ZILCH. 

Mine's a minority breed and fingers crossed I will be importing a boy next month.  He will be from lines different to ones here in the UK at the moment, although way back on his dad's side he has dogs that were in my original dogs pedigrees.  I just hope that all health tests in the future will be good for him.

<<<I'm genuinely interested as to why some breeders feel the need to go to overseas dogs/use imported semen>>>

I think the simple answer is "because we can", the world is a much smaller place now, and with the relaxed Pet Passport scheme it is so much easier.

We plan to take one of our girls overseas next year, not because we think there is a lack of quality here but because we feel we have found the perfect dog for her - he just happens to be overseas.

I have judged the dog in his home country and offspring of his in several countries, I do worry that some people are using dogs they haven't meet and therefore have not been able to judge temperament etc.

Yes, it's not cheap and I have found overseas stud fees much more expensive than our own, but when it's comes to choosing the right dogs money has never come into it for us.