Please help if possible. I have had my 5 yo yellow lab marlon since he was 8 weeks old. He went to puppy, obedience and agility classes with me until he was about 2. He has had a very busy year, my marriage broke down and I moved away, taking Marlon with me. He has always been a very good boy, but he has had 4 house moves this year and now lives with myself, my new partner and their bichon x. He recently nipped a child on the arm. I was out of the room but another adult was there. It was a six year old boy. Marlon drew blood. I shut him away and tended to the child. When he was a youngster (about 18 months) marlon nipped a child before (did not break skin) but she jumped on him. I had him neutered and didn't see any more problems, but to be fair I didn't have many young children in my life to see! My partner also thinks she struggles to get him to listen to her, but he has never shown any aggression towards her. Rocco the bichon x has no manners and is not trained. I do not really understand how dogs pick up behaviour from each other - Marlon is not allowed on furniture and Rocco is which I do not like, but we are all just learning to get along as a family! I try to practice NILIF with Marlon. He is good off lead and out, really just lives to play fetch and swim and run.

Would appreciate any advice (I previously had a rescue dog put to sleep after the vet diagnosed rage syndrome, doberman x akita x gsd - Marlons behaviour in no way resembles that!)

Thanks
Emma

I think it would help to find out what led to Marlon biting this child, was it a nip that broke the skin or a nasty bite?

You need to find out exactly what the dog was doing and what the child was doing leading up to the bite. How many people were about, what was the other dog doing?

You'll often find that dogs have given numerous warnings to people and end up biting/nipping as the last resort as no one has paid any attention to their warnings. 

If you could give us some more information we could try and work through this with you and point you in the right direction as to what you need to do now.

Who's child was bitten and how are they feeling about this? How is the child doing too?

I'd say it sounds like he's under-socialised to children.  He is afraid of them, and fear almost always manifests as aggression.

It has nothing to do with 'manners' or with being a 'child hater', anymore than someone who is scared of spiders sitting still whilst a tarantula walked across their arm would be about them being 'polite' or not, for reacting or not reacting.

However, you have a duty of care towards Marlon and if he harms another child because he has been left in a situation he can't cope with, he does face the risk of being PTS.  You need to either ensure that he is never around children (since children DO do things to dogs with little warning and notice, and are not completely under adult control if told to ignore the dog), or to work with a behaviourist to address his fear.  To do the latter, you will need access to (obedient!) children.

Dogs, unlike primates, do not learn by imitation (allegedly - according to research) - so it is unlikely he is going to pick up bad habits from the bichon x unless you decide that the rules are the same for both dogs.  However, the bichon and his training or lack of it has nothing to do with Marlon's fear of children.

Dogs do not bite for no reason (unless they have a mental issue) so he reacted for a reason, finding out that reason will probably need a behaviourist if you are not able to read body language well enough and know yourself.

If I were you I would simply have him behind a dog gate when you have children in the home, quick, simple and very cheap and make sure that children do not tease him through the bars.

Some dogs are afraid and unsure of children for so many reasons they are often immature with regards to understanding a dog has feelings, they cannot read body language, they use high pitched voices, which activate prey drive or fear, often touch and poke dogs and basically irritate them, dogs find them hard to read, they also do not value them at all as having any status over them, just as they wouldn't with any other baby animal, so don't expect the same respect.

Unless brought up with children by a savvy owner who will show supervision and protection for dog and child, encouraging a great friendship between them, don't expect a dog to just like children and treat them the same as us adults, it doesn't work that way.

Believe me your dog did not bite without warning signs first, they just were not noted by the other adult in the room or given any credence.

If you don't have children often in your home, I'd just get a dog gate. :-)

P.S. Not quite sure why one dog is allowed on the sofa and the other not, treat them the same, you either don't want dogs on the sofa or you're not bothered.

Oh just to add the clue to your partner not being shown respect or listened to is in the behaviour and lack of training of her dog the Bichon cross.

A dog doesn't automatically listen/become trained it requires the person to do it.

So why not sign up with both dogs for training classes, and alternate each week which person trains with each dog, this will build a rapport between you and the respective dogs so avoiding the your dog my dog scenario with each being put out buy the others behaviour.

Hopefully there may even be the opportunity of habituation the Lab with well behaved children in a controlled situation with the trainers help.

It doesn't sound as if the poor dog has had pleasant expereinces of children.

> I do not really understand how dogs pick up behaviour from each other

Dogs can learn by imitation, even selective imitation - something previously thought to be only a human capability :)

Link here about it, but just googling selective imitation will bring up lots of results.

Without being 100% sure for the reason of the bite (eg, fear, excitemet, play-bite from a dog with no bite inhibition, resource guarding etc..) then no advice for behaviour modification can be given. It really would be best to seek the advice of a good behaviourist.

Thank you all for your replies. It was not a nasty bite, a nip that broke the skin and he backed off. As I said I was not in the room. The reports I got from the child were that they were crossing in a door way (my feeling was that it may have been too much in a small space) the child also said he may have stood on Marlon's foot. I muzzle marlon now if he is near children (i got him used to it first with heaps of treats and praise). The child is fine - I am a nurse, but I got him seen, and got him abx. His care givers are fine. The child was a friend's nephew.
I have not really socialised him much with children, but my other concern is that I want children - in the not too distant future as time is ticking on. I do not know what to do!
Had I been in the room, I feel I would have been able to read Marlons body language better - It was my stupid fault for being out of the room.
Marlon is also not good with my sister's puppy rottie (bitch) - I wonder if he has no respect for those he considers weak or young?
He can be quite fearful - loud noises like the hoover and busses make him scarper - i have tried to socialise this out of him, ignoring the scared behaviour and praising the calm.

In addition - I do not particularly want dogs on the sofa/furniture. I get on the floor to play with/cuddle marlon. My OH feels like her dog is missing out if not allowed on the sofa because he always has. Also she doesn't want marlon on as he is quite hairy! She feels as if rocco has had to give up having food down all the time (i did say this might not be the best practice anyway from the training I have done with dogs) as marlon - being a typical lab - would just munch it! he has half an hour for his tea (as they both do now) and he has always had to sit and wait for it. I keep trying to push training for all four of us, so we are all singing off the same sheet and it is less confusing for all, but even in house training (i re looked at NILIF and printed off the basics) is not really being observed. I have contacted a behaviourist regarding marlon and children. Maybe i just feel as though it is not equal between the dogs and i dislike double standards.

I'm sorry if I have read this the wrong way but I kind of feel bad for Marlon.  The way you have written your posts leave me to believe that your OH feels owning Marlon is a chore and 'favours' her own dog more.  Bear in mind, I have got this from what you have written.  I would never allow this type of behaviour regardless of who brought what dog into the relationship, I mean, you wouldn't do this to any kids would you both? 
I think you need to wait to see what the behaviourist makes of Marlon regarding the children thing but I wish you the very best with him.

I think maybe I feel the same, but maybe it is difficult to be objective when you are in a situation. I do think my OH loved marlon before the biting incident - now she seems scared of him, or maybe I am too protective. She was never keen on his hair (clearly not his fault, and nothing a hoover doesnt solve) except the sofa issue I insist the dogs are treated equally as possible, but I think maybe I am guilty of prefering marlon too. I dislike untrained dogs, and I know it is not roccos fault, but his attitude irritates me. I make sure marlon gets lots of floor cuddles for doing what i ask, and we still do regular basic training - sit/down/off/drop and reward with food/fetch/cuddles. I worry we may just end up a bit secular...not sure what the answer is. I have made my feelings reasonably clear. eg. i hear complaints from the OH if marlon barks at strangers walking past the house/postman because he is so loud and big and scary! I do always point out roccos behaviour is identical if not worse just in minature! Appreciate all your feedback.

Well, look:  It's perfectly normal to like your own dogs more than each others - after all, you have lived with your own dogs far longer and obviously have far more of a bond with your own.  (Don't we all?)  If you can accept this and not feel bad about it, I think it would be a step forwards!  Over time you might come to like each other's dogs just as much.

It also makes perfect sense to me that you come from a place where dogs are not allowed on the furniture (as do I - mostly for hair, slobber, and space reasons!), and your partner - with a much smaller breed of dog - comes from a place where her dog has been allowed on the furniture in the past - so, in her eyes, why should he not continue to be allowed, now that another dog has moved in.

It is, after all, REALLY difficult to prevent a dog from going to locations/places in the house where it has previously been allowed to go (ie upstairs, in bedrooms, on furniture, jumping on kitchen counters etc) - which is why the best approach is never to let a dog do any of that in the first place, through excellent supervision and prevention (crating dog, shutting dog out when unable to supervise.)  To prevent your partner's dog from getting on the sofa now would be a huge ordeal - and, frankly, I think it would be more likely to cause feelings of unfairness between the dogs than just letting it be - running the risk of Rocco associating Marlon coming into the house, with privileges being taken away, which could upset the apple cart.

On the other hand, of course you don't want Marlon jumping on the sofa just because Rocco does - for the same reasons you didn't let him on when he lived alone with you.

Dogs don't reason like people do, and it is perfectly ok to have different rules for different dogs.  Just as people who keep cats and dogs often let the cats have access to areas where the dogs don't.  The dogs don't then become jealous of the cats...  Some folk I know who keep toy dogs and large breeds have different rules for the toys, allowing them onto the furniture.  Again, this doesn't cause jealousy. 

Dogs are capable of feeling very rudimentary jealousy - ie - seeing someone give lots of treats to another dog, and then giving only 1 treat to them, causes what looks like jealousy (according to research).  However, this is far more complicated because you're talking about long-standing rules which both dogs have grown up with and which you don't even know they view as unfair.  You, as humans, might see it as unfair to treat them differently, but I think you just have to get over that and understand that the dogs might see it otherwise and not project human feelings onto them.

As for the issue with children, I think you need to be sure not to make excuses for Marlon:  That it wasn't a big bite, that it was your fault you were out of the room, that he wasn't socialised to them and so on - all that may well be true, but at the same time it is a problem which needs to be either safely prevented/managed, or solved - not excused away.  It is v good that you are seeing a behaviourist though - good luck with them.

mastifflover - really interesting article about imitation. thank you! :-)

Have tried very hard not to make excuses, but to look at it from as many angles as possible. I do know the problem needs addressing and am trying to do so. it is breaking my heart at the same time. I know Marlon is my responsibility and one I am happy to have and I only want the best for him, a happy stable home life with boundries, food, walks, play time and a calm place to sleep and rest. I am not sure about the different rules for different pets?! how does that work without resentment? Marlon doesnt get on the sofa unless invited. He used to be allowed, but the hair was too much. Apparently little muddy feet are not. There is a baby gate on the stairs, we orriginally didn't want the dogs upstairs, but roccos barking was unbearable for my OH and probably the neighbours. now they are only allowed up to sleep. I treat them equally in that if there are treats they both get one. obviously walks are for them both. I would never see any harm come to rocco, but I resent being barked at when he doesnt get his own way - he will literally bark in our faces if the OH and I try to have a kiss/cuddle. I have no experience with little dogs being a big dog kinda girl. I appreciate dogs do not reason like people, nor have the same emotions. I do try to "think" dog and that is why I practice NILIF and went to all the training sessions when I first got Marlon (to train me not him!).

Have you thought of suggesting to your OH that you could train the dogs together and maybe work towards a good citizen award or something like that. It would mean rather than having the dogs as "theirs and mine" they become "both your dogs" you would also be spending time together bonding as a family unit.

Good Luck

I have suggested joint training, or that i take rocco and she takes marlon. I have also tried training in the house/garden/walks. sometimes some bits are incorporated othertimes not. I just feel it would be easier if we could rely on the dogs being trained to the same standards. I find it difficult to walk rocco alone and he runs away - very poor recall with both of us. also he runs up to children and knocks them over (one very memorable time i took the boys to the beach and he knocked a couple of children into the sea before I could catch him!). I just do not know what to do for the best! I have even gone as far as to speak to my ex (whom I shared marlon with initially) to see if he should go to live back there - I just want what is best for him.

Well, there's a dog which needs training (Rocco), so someone needs to train him - whether by attending classes or doing stuff at home.  You do have some knowledge of how to do it, as you trained Marlon.  Is the problem that your partner doesn't want to train him?  In which case, maybe you should - it would help with your relationship with him, and you'd get a trained dog in the bargain.

With the fairness thing, you just have to take it from me that dogs don't see life in the same way we do.  It's not necessarily the case that Marlon will feel jealous if Rocco still gets to go on the sofa.  I think it's more about your feelings about your partner's dog being allowed to do stuff which your dog isn't, and that's about sorting out the human side of things.

As long as you keep enforcing your standards with Marlon, he's not going to do what Rocco is doing:  If you call him back with the phrase he recognises and give him a treat, he will keep coming back - whatever Rocco is doing.  You never know, Rocco might decide coming back is a good thing because Marlon is getting treats for doing it - the good stuff might rub off, not the bad the other way.  I'd put Rocco on a harness and long line or extending lead, if his recall is that bad, and then practise it on walks.

Loads of people deal with having 2 dogs of different standards:  Some people have a well trained older dog and then get a puppy which is a hooligan for a while.  Others have dogs they compete with and other dogs they don't.  Some dogs are more easily trained than others and have more natural inclination to obey, so end up being better trained - and so on.  It's not a unique situation to have one dog trained and one not, you just need to figure out a way to spend time with Rocco.

> Loads of people deal with having 2 dogs of different standards

To the OP: I do, and my dogs manage very well.  I have 3 dogs aged from 10 down to 2 years.  Our oldest dog was never allowed on the furniture but he is allowed when he stays with my mother in law - he just has to wait for her to put the dust cover on the sofa first.  My middle dog is only really allowed onto the leather sofa as the other furniture makes him itchy.  My youngest dog is allowed on all of it as long as he settles down very quickly - if he flaps about or dithers he's told to get off.  I certainly don't get the impression they are confused by these rules, or unduly worried at one dog being allowed to do something the others are not.

Each of my dogs has slightly different rules depending on their reliability with training, their physical needs or abilities, their tolerance for particular conditions (one of mine needs to be able to get away from my brothers children, as he finds them a bit of a worry), or simply because that's what I decide at any given moment.  The important thing is that we, my family and I, are 100% consistent.  We also take steps to ensure that each dog gets good quality time with us - in whatever way suits them and us best.

In many ways it does sound as if you and your partner need to agree your 'parenting rules'.  I know dogs aren't children but it is a little like bringing 2 families together, you simply need to decide how your merged family is going to function and how best to bond with each others 'children' or in your case - your dogs :).