Just a query. I have a friend who would like to come to Darlington with me as she has shown an interest in perhaps having a go at showing with her puppy. However, she would have to bring her puppy (just over 5 months) with her. I know spectator dogs are able to come, but I can't find anywhere on the schedule about how old a spectator dog must be. I know puppies under 6 months are not eligable for competition, but spectator dogs are not for exhibition, can she bring her?

I don't think there is an age restriction as such but unless the pup can be carried I don't think bringing her to a general championship show will be a good idea, as it will be far too much for such a Young pup unless she plans to only stay for half an hour or so, which would not be getting the most of the visit.

Why would be it too much? From 6 months old puppies can be shown and will spend the day at shows, whats the difference in a week or 2?

ETA, if you bring a spare cage along the pup can be rested in there

The difference is that spectator dogs are just that no provision is made for them to have a bench ro space for crating. 

A 6 month puppy at it's first show would be able to spend most of it's time resting quietly, except for it's few minutes in the ring and walkign from the car park to the benching.

Even tehn young pusp asre exhausted after a day at a show semignly doinf nothing much, adn sensible owners don't overdo showing them.

There's no provision for all the show dogs in trolleys and crates but people find spaces for them

I'm sure the OP would find a space near their dogs for the pup to go in a cage and so it'll be like any other dog at the show, just not being shown

Personally (and i must be one of those non sensible owners) i think it'd be a great experience for the pup, especially as it'll be going along with another dog so hopefully will feed of that dogs confidence in the show environment
Our pups were due out at the end of April and the first few weeks of April we had alot of breed club shows, some benched, some caged so we entered them 4-6months NFC and brought them along, walked them round the show to meet & greet, during the lunch breaks walked them round the ring and I think it had done them the world of good being part of it with out actually having to be shown, a nice fun but relaxing day out
But each to their own.

> There's no provision for all the show dogs in trolleys and crates but people find spaces for them
>
>

No these are meant to be in specific areas only (grooming areas and storage areas for trolleys and cages).  People who put cages, pens and trolleys around other areas (especially ringsides) are the bane of other exhibitors lives who use their benches as required by the show rules.

I agree club show and Opens are great experiences, but not a general championship show for an underage puppy, that is probably why the facility for NFC entries from 4 month plus pups is restricted to club and open shows.

the facility for NFC entries from 4 month plus pups is restricted to club and open shows.
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Actually unless things have changed in the last few months it is only at breed club shows that puppies from 4 months can be entered NFC at open shows it is 6 months.

In the case of a spectator's dog there is no age limit as far as I know nor is there provision for benching or caging it would need to be on a lead and with the spectator always providing the show allows the entry of spectator dogs at all.

All of my dogs have been raised going to shows from a very young age. However, they aren't actually allowed to have any contact with the other dogs there as I don't want to put them at risk of a bad experience. Even when I'm showing them at 6 months, they get carried to and from the ring (mind you, I have Scotties so this isn't hard to do) because you don't know the temperaments of the dogs around you and it can completely ruin a show dog to have them attacked at a show at a young age.

Anyone know if Richmond are allowing spectator dogs? I can't open up HP to check the schedule
Ta

Anyone know if Richmond are allowing spectator dogs? I can't open up HP to check the schedule
Ta

Anyone know if Richmond are allowing spectator dogs? I can't open up HP to check the schedule
Ta

Yes they are at £5 per dog

Actually unless things have changed in the last few months it is only at breed club shows that puppies from 4 months can be entered NFC at open shows it is 6 months.

Breed and group open shows.

Breed and group open shows.

Can you tell me when it the rules changed please? Last time we asked we were told in no uncertain terms that it only applied to breed shows and we printed that on the entry form but if it has changed then we can remove it.

Have just looked this up on the KC site and it still seems to say breed shows and Sub-group open shows. Now what is the definition of a sub group - I have always understood it to mean a sub group of one of the normal 7 groups, i.e. spaniels or dachshunds even HPR but did not consider it to apply to whole groups like Gundogs or Hounds

The ruling in red book F.1.c. Only dogs of six calendar months of age and over on the first day of the
Show are eligible for exhibition at Kennel Club licensed Shows.
However, societies may accept Not for Competition entries at their
discretion. Dogs aged four calendar months and over are eligible to
enter not for competition at Single Breed and Sub-Group Shows.

I have never really thought of the rule to not mean say hound but Dachshund, I expect many others think the same. There is very little mentioning sub groups, although a bit in F 1 21 & 24. I also not that it doesnt say it cant be a Single Breed and Sub-Group Shows champ show or any other type.

Thanks for your thoughts Lexy, I have always thought that a Sub-Group show would be a show for a particular group of breeds within the group. Why would you call a group a sub-group when a group is always called just that, a group, and there are only 7.

I am associated with a Hound group show and we were told (over the phone) that under no circumstances could we accept NFC hounds under 6 months.

If you ran a show for the 6 Dachshund breeds that would, one would think be a show for a Sub hound group. Same if it was for Spaniels or Retrievers that would be a Sub gundog group.

Still confused, just what does sub-group mean?

What I mean was some are perhaps 'dropping' the sub part & thinking it to mean the 7 groups. I know I have, as a sec, accepted under 6 months(but not less than 4mths) but I was a breed sec so that was fine :)
Yes, thinking about it you must be right re sub group...same as a HPR show, I know there are these kinds of shows..I recall seeing them in the dog press. Just not something I think about as my breed isnt attached/linked to any other..well apart from when Joe Public think they are either Greyhounds or It. Greys!!!..lol

Joe Public think they are either Greyhounds

Not just Joe Public I have been fooled more than once by very tall heavy whippets into thinking them a Greyhound puppy lacking type.

What I mean was some are perhaps 'dropping' the sub part & thinking it to mean the 7 groups.

Will wait for Goldmali to reply she was so positive in her answer to me perhaps she can point me to the definitive answer to this - it is important if you are running a show to give the correct information as you will appreciate but we have not been advised nor have we seen it in the gazette.

Sorry bumped as I do need to know where I can find the information Marianne has given so I can act on it, I know it must be a resent change but I can't find it.

You can download the rules and regs here http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4437/showregs.pdf

United retriever club is an example of sub-group shows, they hold 2 open shows and a champ show each year.

Do you know someone really has to look at the KC website and make it's search facility work.  I put in several searches and got nothing close to what I needed.

There are so many good things on the KC website but so inaccessible, and not user friendly.

I have a copy of the Red book but it says Sub-group open shows not group open shows. Goldmali said that it applied to group open shows and that is the information I require as I know what the rule in the red book is but it must have changed if Goldmali is right.

Brainless - did find the section on the KC web but it just says Breed and Sub-group open so that is not the same as Group Open and that is what Goldmali said - wish she would come back and clarify where the info came from.

My friend and I had 2 spectator dogs at Richmond today. We did do a circuit of trade stands with them but apart from that, they both mainly slept quietly beside us whilst my friend showed her other dog. Hardly stressful or tiring if you are careful and if you care enough about your dog not to want to leave it at home (or in the car as some morons do) then you are going to be careful with the dog at the show. I think spectator dog entries are a brilliant idea and £10 cheaper than NFC.

I think spectator dog entries are a brilliant idea and £10 cheaper than NFC.
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Another example of how unfair the KC rules can be - why should a spectator pay £10 less to bring a pet or spare dog with them than the exhibitor.

I had 2 spectator dogs at Richmond today - Hardly stressful or tiring

Think it was suggested it would be so for a pup under 6 months old particularly one that had not been to ring craft etc and was not used to having so many dogs around.

Yep I think it's totally unfair and must admit I feel like starting to take a dog and pay as a spectator when I get there, especially if I have a pup soon.  Though there again by the time it would be able to go there will be no champ. shows to go to.

For spectator dogs at Richmond there was nothing in the schedule to say a min age, so if they dont print anything then my guess is there is no set age for spectator dogs like at Richmond..

I nearly took my boy along for a day out but decided against it due to the predicted heat and that was good thinking for me.. Maybe NFC they are worried pups of a young age being left on benches? Who knows

But until any show society puts out a min age then we can all take it there is no minimum, also think its a great idea too :-)

For spectator dogs at Richmond there was nothing in the schedule to say a min age,

No that is correct, there is no age limit for spectators dogs but there is for exhibitors dogs another reason to accuse the KC for unthinking unfairness. An exhibitors dog has to be 6 month (with a couple of exceptions) you have to sign to say it is healthy, it has to be KC registered and it is entered under the same rules that apply to the dogs entered to be exhibited (kept on bench and not let off lead etc). None of this applies to the spectators dogs.

Did I not read spectator dogs have to be kept on leads and under control and I believe you sign something when you go in.. As an exhibitor you can also be a spectator as technically when you aren't showing you are a spectator, so don't see any issue with having one dog to exhibit and one dog to spectate if you don't need a bench for it!

Not sure the KC would agree with your interpretation of the rules Suejaw - as far as I understand it exhibitors can only take a dog not entered for competition as a NFC dog. In other words although an exhibitor may well spectate they are still an exhibitor and therefore they may not take a pet or spare dog with them unless it is entered in the show either as an exhibit or a NFC.

I agree suejaw even if the KC may not..mind you I would want to ask them to clarify but the person you ask probably wouldnt know for sure!!
I had an exhibitor sign a spectator declaration for their non pedigree dog . They couldnt enter NFC as only KC reg dogs are accepted..see rule F(1)8c(18)(a)!!

My sister took her dog as spectator to Richmond yesterday and she only paid the £5 but she didn't sign anything before we went in.

Nessa

>I believe you sign something when you go in.

At the City of Birmingham show last weekend spectators with dogs had to register their details at the gate.

> Think it was suggested it would be so for a pup under 6 months old particularly one that had not been to ring craft etc and was not used to having so many dogs around.

That was exactly my point.  I do like the Spectator dog option if you need to  bring one of your dogs with you, and they don't need their own bench (mine could happily share one between them or be happy to lie by my feet, or alternate with the benched dog. 

I do think NFC entry fees should be the same price as spectator dogs if no bench is required, but as they are if you want them benched which is the rule at present for benched shows, and the reason for the cost.

Spectator dogs acceptance seem to be at the shows discretion, but for general and group champ shows they do need KC approval.

So the answer surely is to allow exhibitors to pay as spectator dogs if they wish, which is what most seem to be doing where it's been advertised.

Although it was my suggestion that she could possibly bring her pup with her as a spectator dog, I would never have suggested it unless I thought the pup could cope, plus as I'm now only showing one of my girls (the other has come into season), we won't be arriving till late morning, so in all likelyness we will only be there 2/3 hours anyway.
  She does live with 3 other dogs, and does go to puppy socialisation classes and did do her first ringcraft at the weekend, and IMO is quite used to 'busyness'. She is quite a bold, outgoing, confident little thing, she certainly likes to try and put my lot in their place! lol
  I know it can be very tiring for a puppy to be at a show, but in this instance I suggested a 2/3 hour bit of socialisation at a nice, fairly spacious open air show would be good for both of them. Also for my friend to see a show first hand as well as meeting people within the breed, and hopefully the father of her puppy (and his owner) it would be a nice start for someone new to the show world. I will not be taking one of mine now as she's in season, so there will be a free bench, so we also have another option of some space for her if she needs it

Does anyone know if spectator dogs are allowed at Darlington?

Quote OP:

"I have a friend who would like to come to Darlington with me .......................................................... I know spectator dogs are able to come,"

so I assume it is in the schedule.

I took one of mine as a spectator dog yesterday as I didn't need a bench for him, I just signed a form which included the declaration you sign on entry forms. 

LOL, hadn't re-read the post, maybe I was being a bit brainless :) :)

spectator dogs are allowed at Darlington but at a cost of £12 per dog so nearer the price of nfc.

Does anybody know if spectator dogs are allowed on Midland Counties grounds? Cant find anything on subject in the schedule.
Ta

In the schedule it has a notice saying there is no unentered dogs tent and every dog coming in must have a removal order and then a little later, no unentered dogs allowed in main hall.
From those two snippets I would say no spectator dogs, normally if they are allowed it will clearly put it like all the others have.

I'm not a fan of the whole spectator dog thing, made a couple of shows a bit of a nightmare this year.

I have used the spectator pass with no problem if not sure ring Sec, certainly saving me some money.