hi, has anyone mated a bitch after having her having an operation to remove bladder stones?
It was about a year ago. She is back to full fitness.
She has had two previous litters, the last two years ago.
thanks
Liz

Are bladder stones hereditary? I would be wary of breeding from any dog with such a metabolic problem.

I agree, in addition, if the pups were to also suffer from bladder stones you would be putting yourself in danger of being sued ;)

I had a Tibetan Terrier with bladder 'gravel' - it was awful, he had a blockage in his urethra and had surgery to remove it, then surgery to give him a bitch opening, but was PTS at 5 years old with kidney failure :(   After the second surgery he was incontinent and dribbled urine constantly so needed washing every few hours.  This was before disposable nappies and incontinence pads.

I'd never want to risk putting a pup or the owners through the awfulness and expense of that if it was avoidable.

>Are bladder stones hereditary? I would be wary of breeding from any dog with such a metabolic problem.

That'd be 99% of dalmatians then. ;-) I have a dog who was operated on to remove obstructing bladder stones at age 7 and he's now 13 without any recurrence.

Actually several breeds have a higher-than-usual predisposition to one of the many forms of bladder/kidney stones, and any individual of any breed can form them under certain circumstances.

I don't know. I haven't been told of any of her progeny developing them. The vet said it was probably from bladder infections.
She now has cranberry every day to hopefully ward them off.
There are so many illnesses that are hereditary and familial  with all the inbreeding that has gone on
that no one would mate their dogs if they were all taken into account.
What I was wondering was if she would have adhesions from the operation that would affect her.

If it's from bladder infections then they're most probably struvite stones, which any dog of any breed can develop. There shouldn't be any problems with a pregnancy, but it'd be best to ask your vet about the risk of adhesions.

Here is an interesting article about bladder stones.

Yes they were struvite, thanks for the link I will read it.

Here's another even better (I think) link, because it links to the other types of stone as well :-)

Actually several breeds have a higher-than-usual predisposition to one of the many forms of bladder/kidney stones, and any individual of any breed can form them under certain circumstances.

Personally I would not breed from a bitch that had had a problem that was NOT known/common in the breed, whatever it was. And if there was a choice (which surely there would be in most breeds), I'd not breed from anyone with any health problem at all whether known in the breed or not.

>And if there was a choice (which surely there would be in most breeds), I'd not breed from anyone with any health problem at all whether known in the breed or not.

That's a bit like saying you'd never breed from a bitch which had ear infections, or trouble with her anal glands. Any dog or bitch that gets UTIs could develop struvite stones.

That's a bit like saying you'd never breed from a bitch which had ear infections, or trouble with her anal glands

Well if it was more than once, I certainly would NEVER consider breeding from such a bitch. I don't have a single dog that ever has had such a problem. You should breed from the BEST, otherwise you end up with dogs that too easily can get problems.

>I don't have a single dog that ever has had such a problem.

You're very lucky; and very unusual. :-) I gather none of your dogs has ever had a food intolerance?

>That's a bit like saying you'd never breed from a bitch which had ear infections, or trouble with her anal glands

I have to say, I wouldn't breed from a bitch who was prone to ear infections or anal gland trouble.   Doesn't seem any point unless it's a very rare breed with critical numbers, but then the risk would be increasing the number of unhealthy dogs in an already at risk breed so I would still think long and hard about it.

You're very lucky; and very unusual. :-) I gather none of your dogs has ever had a food intolerance?

Certainly none I have bred from. In fact, way back when I was in another breed, was showing it and hoping to one day be able to take the step to breeding, I discounted one dog (who was the one doing best at shows for me) BECAUSE it had skin problems due to food intolerances.

I currently have 20 dogs. ONE has some food intolerances. He is neutered. (Edited to say: he is also not related to any of the others, and was bought as a pure pet.) Not one of the others have ever had an ear infection or health problem of any sort other than injuries and in the oldie, mammary tumours. Oh and the Golden used to have fits, but he too is neutered -for that reason.

I wish there were more dogs that could eat whatever was put in front of them without any problems. :-)

Gosh, dogs that never have ear infections! I have never owned a dog that hasn't at some time in its life had an ear infection!

Out of 9 adults (not counting the 3 month pup) have only ever had one with an ear infection (all except one the same breed).

This bitch developed it while pregnant after travelling to Finland in Winter (4 plane journeys in and out of warm airports/plane holds, into cold etc. 

We had to be careful what AB's were used in pregnancy and it flared up again after the pups went and took a few weeks to  totally clear.

Both breeds are prick eared.  I too would reconsider breeding from a bitch with recurring health issues, or severe allergies.

Gosh, dogs that never have ear infections! I have never owned a dog that hasn't at some time in its life had an ear infection!

I find that a bit worrying.  None of my dogs have ever had an ear infection.  None suffer from allergies and all have cast iron stomachs.  How can it be normal to expect your dog to experience these things in their lives?

>How can it be normal to expect your dog to experience these things in their lives?

As normal as expecting yourself to have medical problems occasionally. :-)

Ear infections can have a lot more to do with the shape of the ear though - I have never had a problem with dogs with erect ears having ear infections,Dakko never had a single ear infection in all his 14 years. Those with droopy ears are a different story though! Never had any problem with my PBGV so far but my bernese has had problems twice and our gordon's ears are the ears from h3ll.

All my dogs have been drop ear breeds, cockers and mini long dachsies and never had any problem with ear infections, make sure there is no excess hair around the entrance to the ear canal to allow air to circulate as much as possible.

I to have no problem with ear infections, anal gland problems or food intollerances. Maybe because I feed a raw diet.
The older two do have a little athritis but that is because of age. Like me !!
My lot eat pretty much anything and cope with the odd extras from our plates like pasta, bread rice etc... without problem. They too have drop ears but apart from the odd clean round if they get a bit grubby we have not had to treat medically for ears.
Aileen

Only have one that has the odd ear infection after swimming.  Sadly I think that it's due to the place where she swims occasionally.

Tried this with my setter Rhoda - just doesn't make any difference. We have been through the mill with this one - poor girl. The others have always had a cause (grass seed or rolling in mud then scratching etc) but not the Treacle babe!

And this is why we don't breed from dogs not 100 % healthy, to make sure we avoid breedibg pups that are prone to problems no matter how small.

Just out of interest, how is breeding from a bitch who's had a bladder stone removed (and so is 100% healthy again) different from a woman who's had her appendix removed having a baby?

Just out of interest and not directed at anyone but I am replying to JG's question,. My mum had a hyseterectomy young something that couldnt be known but I have had one young, but I have got weird teeth that needed braces, and a jaw operation to sort my jaw out, and both my children have now/are now having braces!!!!
I had a hernia repaired at the age of 4, but never even thought that as hereditory. All these things could nopt be hereditery ( Quite alot are!!!)
So I should never have had kids, neother should my brother or my cousins as the trates I have will come out in them as well :o :o :o
Sorry I am waffling and cant remeber the question, but look at dogs compared to humans,
We really should health check us all, and not breed from the likes of me who are a walking disaster area!!!! LOL
(I will add I fully support the health checks etc in the dog world!!!!)
Lea :)

Just out of interest, how is breeding from a bitch who's had a bladder stone removed (and so is 100% healthy again) different from a woman who's had her appendix removed having a baby?

1. The woman won't sell any of her babies to other people.
2. The woman has a choice and will know what's what.
3. The woman will not have to pay for medical treatment for herself or her child, should it ever be needed.

Will that do for starters?

We really should health check us all, and not breed from the likes of me who are a walking disaster area!!!! LOL

I've always said that LOL -humans pass on a LOT more than dogs do. But the differences are as in my reply to JG. :)

I'm not breeding material myself either, and I've often wondered what I would have done had I KNOWN about my genetic problem (that has been passed on to at least one of my children) before getting pregnant the first time. Would I have thought like an animal breeder or as a human? I have no idea!

Appendicitis, like tonsillitis, isn't hereditary.

Is flouridation of the teeth??? My bother, me and at least two at least of my  cousin has the same mottled teeth as us (and I have seen only about 3 people onmy life that have the same and I look at people teeth!!!
Dentists say it is flouridation, So too much flourine in drinkin water when growing up but me nad my brother were born in Berkshire and nly moved up here after teeth fprmation yet my cousins were born in linconsire, and if it was flouridation of the wqter everyone in our class would have the same!!!
I used to be called tarmac teeth!!!!
Lea :(

It's diet as well; some mothers took fluoride when pregnant which damaged the developing teeth in their babies.

I know my mum didnt!!!!
That was one thing the dentist asked, and the other thing was the added flourine to water, but as we were in different sides of the country at the same time in 6 yers that dioesnt work out!!!
So totally seoperate counties, 6 years apart and same teeth, but only a few dilute problems in family :) :)
Sooooooo wishy washy LOL
Lea :)

As normal as expecting yourself to have medical problems occasionally

Not so, and I don't understand the comparison between having babies and breeding dogs.

I wasn't referring to the gall stones problem but the expectations that ear infections were common and to be expected.  Repeated ear infections are associated with allergies which is considered hereditary. Yes, we should health test when breeding, but there are many health factors that should be taken into consideration for which there are no health tests.

>Sorry I am waffling

ROFL!   Oh goodness yes!  Definitely hereditary.    :-)  :-)  :-)

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

>I wasn't referring to the gall stones problem

What gall stone problem? The OP referred to bladder stones,which are totally different.

>but the expectations that ear infections were common and to be expected.

In some breeds they are due to the shape and position of the outer ear; should those breeds be allowed to die out because of it?

Appendicitis, like tonsillitis, isn't hereditary.

There are a LOT of conditions that aren't hereditary as such, but a weak immune system or similar can most definitely be passed on -which is why some lines of dogs get a lot more problems than others. Humans have a choice whether to breed, dogs do not -and puppy buyers won't often think to ask questions about GENERAL health of the parents of a pup, not just the breed specific ones. The long and the short of it is, the only responsible thing to do is to ONLY breed from 100% healthy dogs -unless it is a breed where there is such a major problem that a dog free of that but which has smaller problems would be vital to the breed.

I'd agree with you.  I sold a bitch pup to a fellow breeder potentially as a breeding bitch. 

Sadly she developed serious (ongoing for most of her puppyhood) hayfever type symptoms right after her puppy vaccinations, leading to several cases of severe swelling of the eyelids, which in turn caused an ulcer and scarring of the lids.

It was decided that breeding from her would not be in the breeds or her own best interests and she has been re-homed in a pet home.  Now at 18+ months she doesn't seem to have issues any more so assume the immune system has matured enough to stop the previous problems.

I have her mother and bred her father (who has no allergy issues), and have daughters of both (one of 4 and have a daughter of hers) with no issues.  I believe it is best to remove from the gene pool if possible dogs with any niggling health issues.

>I don't understand the comparison between having babies and breeding dogs.

Both involve creating lives for your own whim, which have no say in the matter, so need to undertaken with equal care. :-)

>I believe it is best to remove from the gene pool if possible dogs with any niggling health issues.

It's the reason behind any health issues that's important; is it genetic or environmental? Because it's not rational to expect a dog to be 100% healthy the whole of its life it's important to determine the cause of any health issues before deciding there's a hereditary influence.I wouldn't necessary write off a dog that had an adverse vaccine reaction if it had an undiagnosed health problem at the time of vaccination, but otherwise having a bad reaction would certainly be reason to remove a dog from the gene pool.

This was my reasoning behind not breeding after bladder stone removal - the majority of dogs don't suffer from bladder stones, so there must be an underlying cause for a dog to form crystals in the bladder in the first place.    Whether that is a hereditary problem or an idiosyncratic problem confined to that dog is immaterial, there would appear to be an underlying health problem and that would be enough to make me look for another bitch to breed from.  In most breeds there are enough individuals to keep the breed going without having to use animals with a known health problem :)

>the majority of dogs don't suffer from bladder stones, so there must be an underlying cause for a dog to form crystals in the bladder in the first place.

Struvite crystals form because of UTIs; the bacteria from the infection (sometimes picked up when sitting on dirty ground - perhaps at the kerb at the side of the road? or simply by having to hold the urine too long - perhaps when the owner's at work all day) make the urine alkaline and the crystals (which all dogs excrete if they're fed a high-magnesium diet) precipitates out into crystals and, unless treated, forms into stones. Treat the infection and prevent the environmental cause (arrange for you dog to be let out at intervals during the day - simple caring husbandry) and the dog is once more perfectly healthy.

Slightly off topic but on a mainly US based email list where nealry all pups are routinely crated when not under direct supervision, I am amazed at how often people report their dogs (well puppies or bitches most often) having UTI's. 

I have only ever had one UTI (Cystitis) in my girls in 20 years.  Thia was a bitch about 12 weeks after her last litter and she was in the habit of curtseying very very low when weeing.

Now my puppies either have free access or frequent opportunities to pee outside, or if left if need be will pee on the kitchen floor, as I do not crate my pups to prevent them peeing, feeling that it is not good for them to have to hold on longer than they need to.

>I am amazed at how often people report their dogs (well puppies or bitches most often) having UTI's. 

Yep - not having frequent opportunities to pee is a well-known cause of UTIs. It's not a hereditary problem, it's a common side-effect of poor husbandry of a normal animal.