Hello everyone,
i was hoping to get opinions from some of you expert dog folks and where better to come than here,
its on a photo that i found disturbing tho i seem to be alone in thinking the doggie don't look happy and i find the picture rather disturbing, to me the dog looks uncomfortable but i am no dog behaviorist so maybe i am wrong as others are telling me i am and see nothing wrong with it, opinions much appreciated many thanks in advance,   

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1097/52408210150885815601372.jpg

Doesnt look happy to me, poor dog!

Another statistic waiting to happen :-(

you know i have gotten stick for saying the same thing,,, i have been told their is nothing wrong with this pic , i even sent it to victoria stillwell lol,,, to satisfy my own feelings on the matter and she agreed ,, ok so maybe it was her agent or who ever works for her that answered my email, but i seriously cant believe that on the page i got this from one one person agreed with my the rest are all saying its cute :-O ,,  this was the answer from the owner after i posted that the dog looked unhappy and its how my bully girl would look with her ears back before she would snap at her puppy years ago now,, the owner said,,,,

"My girl wont bite anyone!she is more scared that she will get into trouble for something. He can take food out her mouth and she would let him. How dare you! My girl wouldnt know how to bite!"

utterly unfair to dog.  thats HER cage. she is entitled to peace in it.  sooner or later that put-upon dog will snap. she looks very uncomfortable and unhappy. the little child and the dog will pay the price for the families stupidity. putting any dog in a situation where you remove the 'flight ' option of defense leaves only one other option.

This breed aren't the easiest to read but the ears pinned back give the expression to me that it's not happy with the situation...

thats what i said Suejaw,,, but then i was told " I recognize those ears- those are submissive ears! I love this pic :)",,

my ellie used to look at her pup Tai just like this when she had him and it was always followed by a sharp Snap at him,,,

And when the child does get bitten, it'll be another case of a so called " unprovoked attack ", and another child and dog that will pay the price for the owners stupidity.

Not a situation to put any dog in...how on earth would anyone get to the child should something occur...very silly people!!!

i have now given up trying to educate and put my point across on the fb page i found this on as they all seem to think its a sweet cutie picture  and see no wrong in it at all,, seriously i think people are deluded,

I understand they think they know their dog and no harm will come, but at the end of the day it looks clear to me the dog looks unhappy yet only me and one other person on the page can see it,

Whats wrong with everyone? , i mean even if the dog had no teeth and could in no way harm that baby it still dont look right poor dog,

edit to say im no teacher and far from expert myself i am purely going on what i see and common sense,

What horrifies me even more is there is no easy access to the child if the dog should go for it, the child would be pinned up in the corner and the dog being bigger and stronger there wouldn't be a nice outcome.

I feel this pic has been posed, seeing how the dogs body language is no way has it chosen to go into the crate, the child might have crawled in there and then someone has thought it would make a cute photo opportunity.

What horrifies me even more is there is no easy access to the child if the dog should go for it, the child would be pinned up in the corner

that was what i thought mums answer is well keep off my pictures then if you dont like it...they are best of friends and always will be im sure...shame you have to doubt yours. i believe you can never 100% trust any animal as we cannot communicate with them, but as my dog stands, i trust her well enough to stand and take a picture of my son with her- thank you very much.

lol after shes posting it on a public site,,deluded i tell you all,

and how nice of the women to make her dog look this uncomfortable all for her own picture moment,, personally as bullies go their happy smiley dogs with ears pointing straight up and face beaming,, this to me is far from it,

How dare you! My girl wouldnt know how to bite!"

Errr............. wasn't that a photo of a dog, not a teddy bear? Shucks! Don't you just love the naivety of some? Well, actually no the horror of no understanding I should say.

Whether the dog is a 'pardon the pun' complete pussy cat or not who on earth would be so silly to risk it? Well, I guess that mother is. :-(

You're not wrong to worry the dog certainly looks uncomfortable whether it would react or not, really, what dog wants a baby shoved in their crate to pull and poke them making high pitched squeals and be allowed to take food from a dogs mouth, I am so very comfortable with my decision of not allowing pups to those with under 7's there are so many people with silly attitudes like this around, someone has to protect the dog and child as many parents just don't.

Let's hope that baby stays safe and fate is not tempted.........

Doesn't look happy to me either. I suppose at least the cage door is open so the dog isn't completely trapped, but as others have said, the dog was probably forced into the cage and ordered to stay so the owner could get the pic.

I hope so to,, i hope the dog has more sense than the owner,, she even went as far in saying this,

Mine got attacked while waiting in the vets, now for the power and damage they can do. She did nothing but mouth at it. And im glad thats all she did. As if i would put my son in a compromising situation. I must know nothing ay lol

I replied with this as it was getting on my nerves people kept saying i was wrong,,


As if i would put my son in a compromising situation. seems you already have Alison Jenkins, sorry if i offend you but its people like you who say "oh my dog would never bite anyone then put their child in the situation you have who give all
decent owners and dogs a bad name,,,, fact is its a dog How ever sweet you want to butter it up you will NEVER know exactly what your dog is thinking i just would not chance it ,,, its plain to see from your dogs body language that it is uncomfortable with the situation you have put in front of it, FACT!

I havent answered anymore as they clearly see nothing wrong and i feel you could be the top behaviorist in the world saying this is wrong but they all seem to know better,

Yet another dog waiting to be PTS and blamed for being a dog.

Jean its all off again on this site my god someone just told me,

i know my dog so dont judge my dog and i wont judge your ethic's

whats that meant to mean loool,,,

i think the worlds gone blooming stark raving mad,,, we must be the only sane ones left :-o

Wish I hadn't looked at the picture, I felt sick - deeply sick.

OH's take is why do people have to put their dogs and children in this position, why do they feel they have to PROVE the dog in this way?

I'd like to know why they have to test their dog's good nature to the limit and beyond?   Not fair on the dog IMHO

I have three dogs here who adore children, they've grown up with mine and are entirely trustworthy around even tiny children, the oldest one would clean up after dirty nappies if you allowed her the chance.   But we never have allowed them to be in situations where their good nature would be tested too far, it would be unfair on them to do so and we'd be completely irresponsible. 

very well said,, this row on fb has now started up again,, sadly their are others who dont see it this way i am mortified at some of the responses ,

OMG!!! CANT BELIEVE what  im reading,, please sane people of champdogs just come have a look,, facebook  English bull terrier lovers!!!

> but then i was told " I recognize those ears- those are submissive ears! I love this pic

Oh dear, don't they realise that you need to read the body language of the ENTIRE dog????

The dogs body is tense, the posture is tense, the ears are pinned back and the eyes are FIXATED and staring at the infant = get the child away from the dog now - you shouldn't have even let it get this far!

Flippin 'ek what is wrong with people :(

This arcticle would be worth putting on that facebook page - I can't post on it as it's a closed group - if anybody reads it and pays attention, then perhaps they can learn to tell the difference between submission & anxiety. And if in doubt, a SENSIBLE person would err on the side of caution.

Please excuse spelling errors, I'm fuming!!

agree dog looks like its sort of trying to back off but cant and is saying whats this yuo are far to close and in my space imo

The dogs body is tense, the posture is tense, the ears are pinned back and the eyes are FIXATED and staring at the infant

thats exactly how i see it i just couldnt find the exact right words tho i tried my best but only one person who iv never spoken to before agreed with me the others thought it cute :-o,
things have calmed down now i dont really want to rock the boat anymore, i found some of the responses pathetic, i think their cesar milan fans,

I think this sounds cruel to the poor dog having to put up with kids putting their hand in the dogs bowl,,, why allow them to do that, should be teaching the kids to have respect for the dog and leave it along while it is eating, i was born into a house, well a prefab really lol where my nan had a 17 yr old mongrel who was blind and the number one rule was Leave the dog along in case she bites you as this dog was very old and didn't know me and was not use to children.

I also took a different attitude in training,my god children can put thier hand in my dogs food bowl and he will remove his head and stand back and let them do it,and I used 2 get in my dogs cage wen he was a puppy because no dog should b in charge of any thing or space,U R the pack leader so everything the dog has U should own and control,

i mean what are you teaching your kids by allowing them to think its ok to put their hands in a dogs food bowl,,, if they put their hands in my food plate id bloody well bite them myself lol,,,

Perhaps you should send the picture to The Sun newspaper as they have a petition going to get rid of dangerous ( !!!) dogs that attack children. Let them see the stupidity of the owners for a change instead of blaming the dogs.

Sillysue theirs a thought,, dont think id have the gutts to do it tho feel iv upset them enough on that page at just saying  what you are all saying about the picture,

yet still people their cant see it, when people have there attitude some of them have, really its no wonder their are the attacks on children that their are,,

Food bowls I was taught to remove food bowls when the dog was eating to cure food agression. Now before you all shout :) THAT was until one' I had a worse and getting dangerous problem possibly occuring and then was taught the right way. Add things to the dogs food not take away. It helped know end
My dog is still abit funny about his food and I think this is why. Now adays I respect that and leave him to it. Noway would I allow my kids to do this
Put the way you did chelseagirl yes if you kept taking my food awway I would bite as well !!

Personally I think it depends on your dog. In the pic no dog doesn't look happy by the way the ears are back and not up and forward so to speak.
I no my T-Bone I watch her ears when she meets people if they are going back and laying down not a good picture- but if they are up and forward
she is fine and relaxed. She met people on our walk yesterday and her ears went to go back but they crouched down and petted her and her ears went
forward and she licked them- happy to get the attention lol

On a side note I have had my children climb in the kennel with my dogs- ages 1 & 3 yrs old and my dogs never cared- didn't matter
who was in their 1st. I always felt we as people own everything dogs get last- kennel maybe there's but also the kids too and mine. Mind
you if the dogs were sleeping they never bothered them I never allowed it- quite time for the dogs they need their space to.

Even when we bought Moose her big kennel my son (16 yrs old) climbed in their with all 3 dogs- T-bone and Junior were not sure cause well
it was Moose's kennel and both of them had their ears back- took a couple pics- made noises so their ears would perk up. I also
made a point that all dogs and us can enter the kennel. All food & toys are ours 1st. I found if they went in on their own ears fine they are relaxed.
When I told them to get in the kennel the ears were back, like they thought they were bad lol- but treats came out after and that made all ok
Even kissing T-bone on the cheek her ears fold back lol but I no my dogs and how they act.

Guess I am not gonna totally judge the pic- I did think it was cute cause I myself has done that :-)

Poor dog. IMO Crates should be safe spaces for dogs that you DON'T go in/pull them out of unless you really have to - they need a place they can go. If I go to take my lot out or bath them or whatever, if one goes in the crate I make a point of never hauling them out, I call them, offer a sweetie and if they don't budge, they don't budge :) 99% of the time, even for a bath (!) if they are in the crate and I call them, they'll come out but the choice is theirs. They don't kennel guard and if I do need to get them out, I can :)

Mine have no problem with us crawling in the kennel (I have a huge wire kennel) which all 3
of my dogs can fit in, half the time Junior is the only one laying in it. My dogs sleep on the pet
bed we have, the lamb rug or the floor. If I was to sit in the kennel with them they would be more then happy
to curl up beside me since they love being snuggled :-)

>All food & toys are ours 1st

Now this I really don't see.  If I give food to a dog, it is his, not mine.  And taking it away because everything is "mine" smacks far too much of CM for my liking.

Showing a dog that I AM BOSS just doesn't crank my tractor, sorry.

smacks far too much of CM for my liking

yes thats what i said Jean,,

Now this I really don't see.  If I give food to a dog, it is his, not mine.  And taking it away because everything is "mine" smacks far too much of CM for my liking.

I agree. I give, I don't take back. There will be the occasional time you might HAVE to take, but then it's far better to swap. We had a situation this morning where two of my Malinois had been given a raw meaty bone each and were chewing them in the living room. After a couple of hours, for various reasons we needed to remove the bones -people were coming to visit, the toydogs were going to come into the room, and the bones made the room stink. The dogs had had them for long enough to get most meat off them, but they weren't able to eat them outside as usual -as one has just had major surgery and the other is in season. The younger bitch we got back as an adult and we had never, ever taken anything as good as a meaty bone off her in the time we've had her, but she has been taught to swap. Unfortunately nothing you swap with can really be as good as a meaty bone, but my husband simply waited until she stopped chewing for a moment, handed her a dog chew she could finish eating fairly quickly, and at the same time removed the bone. No problem. She happily took the chew and started chewing that. Had the bone just been taken away with nothing left, I would not have blamed her at all if she had been upset or tried to take it back. She'd been given it, after all, and therefore it was hers.

It's amazing how much good treats and praise can do, as opposed to force and/or punishment. This same Mali bitch recently started to show displaced aggression at times when there was great excitement. Eg. the dogs were outside and a car arrived  parking in our drive -be it one of us or visitors. All the dogs barked excitedly and this bitch would then suddenly turn on one of the smaller dogs, forcefully flip him over onto his back and threaten him. No biting involved but enough force to hurt a much smaller and older dog. The first time it happened I was outraged and screamed at the bitch, forcefully removed her and left her alone for an hour. The second time it happened I was so angry I was chasing after the bitch screaming at her. Sometimes you just act on instinct and adrenaline, and the small dog had been injured the first time, needed x-rays and cage rest etc. He'd just recovered and could not go through the same again. Anyway, after the second incident we decided the simple answer was to never leave these dogs unattended, but to always keep a close eye on them. The moment anything happened such as the postman arriving, I would open the door and call in the Malinois bitch, to ensure she didn't go for the little dog again. When she came in I gave her a treat -again automatic reaction -she came when called despite there being big excitement outside, so I rewarded her with a treat -I always have a tub of treats by the door, whether it is to teach a new pup to come in when called, or to let visitors make friends with the dogs. I have since continued to do this -call her in and give her a treat. The upshot has been, without me even intending for it to happen!, that now, when a car arrives and the dogs start barking, this bitch runs to the front door, asks to be let in, and points with her nose towards the treats in the hall! She no longer instantly goes for the small dog, she heads for the door instead -because it is SO much nicer. So classic behaviour really -being punished did not stop her behaviour, being rewarded for doing something different DID.

> I always felt we as people own everything dogs get last

It's all very well thinking like that, but do you honestly think dogs are capable of that train of thought? Do you think a dog thinks "I'm a dog so I must allow the human to take food out of my mouth/take my bed/take my prized toy? It's opening up a whole host of potential behavioural problems to expect a dog to be able to think like this.
A dog can be trained to give things up to a person, but a trained beahviour and the thought process 'person owns everything' are worlds apart.

I will get in my dogs bed with him (plenty of space, he has a single matress for a bed), he'll happily flop out, sending up snores of contentment while I give him a pedicure (clip & file his nails), but if he had a look on his face, like the dog in the pic in the OP, I would get the heck out of his bed!
My children also enjoy giving the dog a cuddle when he's in his bed, the dog likes it too, but he is stricly watched for the most subtle signs of body language, even if he moves a paw and I am not 100% sure he's done it just to re-adjust his position then the kids get turfed out of his bed (my boys are 13 & 14 yrs). There is no need to let a dog get as tense as that dog in the pic in the OP, infact I would be willing to bet the dog had moved to that end to get away from the baby, so allready had signals of it's tension/displeasure ignored.

> I no my T-Bone I watch her ears when she meets people if they are going back and laying down not a good picture

It's not just about the ears, I know that if Busters ears are back when a stranger reaches to pet him he is FINE, but the ears are not the only thing. The entire dog needs to be read, with Buster, his ears are back, but not strained back, his facial expression is 'soft' not strained, his body is relaxed, his tail is relaxed.
'Ears back' is like saying 'tail wagging' - they can not be read as anything unless the whole picture is looked at (I hope I don't have to put this in but a wagging tail does not just mean happy/friendly)

> Personally I think it depends on your dog

The dog in the pic in the OP, was showing several signs of being extremley stressed/uncomfortable in that situation. A dog has several options when it feels that stressed, it can run, freeze, start being silly or defend itself. Luckily this dog stayed still, it may have stayed still 100 times before in this situation, it may stay still for another 100 times in this situaiton. It may bite next time and if not destroyed, may be fine for the next 100 times afer that.

We can use what we have seen of our dogs previous behaviour to give us a clue how they will be in different situations, but we really have to pay attention to the dog in every situation. Just becasue it has been fine with X,Y or Z 100 times before, does not mean it will be fine the next time.

> I did think it was cute cause I myself has done that

Your only seeing the picture as 'baby with laying dog', not 'baby caged with dog that is showing signs of stress & the next level of that stress would be to bite the baby'.

Now this I really don't see.  If I give food to a dog, it is his, not mine.  And taking it away because everything is "mine" smacks far too much of CM for my liking.

Showing a dog that I AM BOSS just doesn't crank my tractor, sorry.

Yes in my house we as people are alpha to our dogs- our dogs are under all of us, they are dogs not people!

Otherwise if they have lets say a chew and its getting way to small for the dog to eat I, my hubby or my children must be able to safely take that away from them and not be bitten.
Same with toys- if I notice they have destroyed one I want to be able to safely remove it with out be bitten. My children don't always think to trade something- they are kids even
tho they are teenagers- but I want to no they can also do this safely with out being bit.

If I drop food they are not to have lets say chocolate or grab something when out on a walk we as people with our pets must no we can safely remove what is in their mouth
with out harm coming to us.

Yes I do swap never said I didn't but there are occasions when you cannot swap cause you don't have anything on you- lets say a walk and praise should do as well.
Moose pretty much no's release for letting us take stuff :-) She has been taught this word since we got her.

If my dogs are on their bedding and I want to do their wash I don't wait for them to get off I usually pet them and say come on lets go MOM has to wash your bedding,
and up they get. Even at bath time I call them into the bathroom and I give them a bath- Moose I tell her get in and she jumps in. I have all ways made this stuff exciting
and fun cause during it they get a lot of praise and in the end they get a treat.

Reason why I say everything belongs to us as people the dogs come second. My children when little use to stick their hands in their food grab a handful and feed them.
Funny how my dogs would gladly eat out of their hands- I always made sure my kids were well involved with stuff like that with the dogs. I am sure people will read more into this. I never read stuff like
this where OOoh you should be careful- I was new at all this dog owning thing, yes thankful nothing happened to my kids, thankful my dogs were as well behaved as what they were. My dogs use to be free fed as well.
When I do feed them they must sit and wait till I tell them its ok to eat, since Moose I have started schedule feeding. Yes every now and then I do stick my hands down by their food or just give them kisses or pet
them while they are eating- which I think I should be able to and every one in our home as well. Doesn't mean I am taking their food away- but I also want to be able to
if I ever need to. (I am sure people will prob read more into this as well)

In the long run my dogs are good, I can read their body language. I have done this with my dogs for well over 20 some yrs and have never had a problem.
Even had a wolf/rott who lived in our house as a family pet my children could stick their hands in his mouth. Think it all comes down to training, knowing how to read
your dog, watch the signs and always make training fun and end on a happy note. Also no your breed/s and when enough is enough and to remember they are dogs not people
and treat them as such. All ways watch children and dogs and for that matter some adults as well. When I 1st got dogs I never really thought about not leaving kids and dogs
alone- never really dawned on me till I started reading. I lived on a farm when young and I remember running around with my puppy at like 3 with no adults around-
climbing on my colt when I was 4 and she was never broke but my sister and I rode her No supervision. What people would do with that! But here I am, prob cause back
then you never read all this stuff that we read now with kids and animals so people are more Leary now.

I am sure people on here have done things and never realized they shouldn't have, then ooh I use to do that it def wasn't smart so to speak.
I'm sure the mother with the pic hopefully sooner then later will look at the pic and realize her dog really is not comfortable with that situation.
Who knows maybe the child crawls int their all the time with the dog and they snuggle- maybe this time she decided to grab the camera and told her
dog to stay (which dog could of thought in trouble reason for the tense look). We just don't no the whole picture so not really gonna condemn the person.
I no every time I brought my camera out to take pics Dozer would always get tense, think it was the noise or flash of the camera he was like that his whole life.
Always gave them treats after which he looked forward to but never liked the camera. But hey I wanted a pic of my puppy he was like that for 71/2yrs till we had to say good-bye
to him due to medical reasons.

You really cannot type out what you say exactly it always sounds better in the head lol :-)
I am sure some people on here are prob scared to say what they think ect due to the fact at getting their head
bitten off! Sorry but eh its true- I take things with a grain of salt :-)

Especially new pet owners they get a dog cause its cute, spur of the moment so to speak- not every one reads the do's and don'ts on owning a dog.
Look at me for instance I got a hybrid (wolf/rott) and did all the wrong things- I was only 19yrs old to. He was tied up outside for about a year with another dog- long leash brought in at
night through out the day ect. Then built a dog run which they lived in. Then when the mate passed on due to cancer we brought him indoors at 8 yrs old- he slept in my daughters
room- he was our big baby! We went on walks to the park, he loved children/people/animals of all sizes and kinds- All the things we did is NOT ever to be done with a wolf/cross.
We never knew any of this- seen an add in our local newspaper and went and got him- treated him like a dog and well I'd have to say he was a huge teddy bear. My kids use to sit on him,
he pulled them in the sleigh,wagon. If the kids were out of sight he would let us no- when we went for a walk and they legged behind he would not budge till they were right beside him.
Yes very lucky on how our boy turned out and prob not to smart on our end to get such an animal- but when you don't no any better- all i have to say is we were very fortunate and people
learn :-) Would I get another one- I don't no. If the opportunity was there maybe.

>I no every time I brought my camera out to take pics Dozer would always get tense.....never liked the camera

What is it with cameras? My last dog, Rocky, would leave the room if he saw me trying to take a photo of him. Odd, he never seemed to have a problem with the camera in general, never minded when I was taking pics of the kids or Buster with him in the room, but as soon as I lined it up to get a snap of him, he'd scarper!
I tried to be sneaky and get a pic of him & Buster sat together watching TV (when Bust was a pup), but mid-snap he spotted me, so the pic is of Bust sitting and Rocky in the middle of getting up to leg it with a expression on his face, it ended up looking like he did not want any photographic evidence of the fact he had decided to become friends with the horrid puppy :-D

Think I finaly manged to get a pic of them sitting together before we had to say goodbye to oldie, but it was them sitting to attention for food, not sitting, chillin' watching TV.

Maybe it's the big EYE  

Some Dogs don't like being 'eyeballed', some hate it more than others ;)

My old AfghanX had a soft rubber 'dog' toy and would play fetch with it and retrieve it from anywhere, except if the eyes were 'looking' at him, then he'd stop dead and turn his head away before walking away from it :)

:-) lol they sure are funny that's for sure.

I posed all 4 of my boston's for a picture and Dozer no way- but just said stay and wait- look at me which they did a quick snap -lovely pic and a huge treat :-)
He was a very vocal dog and pranced every where he walked- he sure had a lot of character that one- lovely memories :-)