...is impossible! LOL

Have to agree even in our breed where we free stand LOL :-)

I'm about 3 weeks behind you, first ringcraft on Tuesday. 

Try and free stand at first, adn then gradually run a hand down a leg and place it in correct postion, treat break off, then try opposite leg (front oens easier at first as you can snuggle them while doing it. 

Once he is happy with paws being gently lifted (holding the leg), then you can move to sliding hand down rear leg and gently moving to correct postion, this is the one where they ruin it by turning around to see what your doing, where you have gone.

Not speaking from personal expereince just watching my friens in dobes with nww pups.

Thanks for the tips! When i move a hind leg, he takes it back or just sits down.... alas! Yet when i do try free stand him with a bit of ham the front end goes into position perfectly but not the hindlegs. First ringcraft is not for about a week and ahalf!

Don't try to move anything at the moment piece of ham in right hand and stroke the hip and give the ham. only do it for short period of time but once he is happy for you to touch his rear leg then slowly increase the grip till you can lift a foot. In the past I have managed to teach my dog to move a foot on command I did it with a clicker but I only did it with one dog so it may have been a fluke.

That's fine, as I said they get more confused by you messing with their rears.  If you can walk him into correct stance at rear (pasterns perpendicular) then just move the front ones back then all the better.

Even in stacked breeds training a dog to stand well free and in natural balance will mean only the most minor alterations needed, if at all.

I've been to ringcraft 3 weeks now - I'm still useless, let alone the pup!!  

Nova what is the difference between stacking and free standing?

I dont place pups into a stack I teach them to do it for themselves.

Any attempt to offer me a 'stand' gets rewarded. Any 'sits' get ignored.
They are 'offering' quite often by 12 weeks.

At breakfast I handfeed and Im getting quite a few positions with them putting their little feet back in place...so cute!

>what is the difference between stacking and free standing?

Stacking is where the dog is physically positioned by the handler and held. Free-standing is where the dog puts itself into position without the handler touchingit at all.

Thanks JG ;-)

Thanks JG.

I thought it might have something to do with where the handler stood or in our case bent down, we are at the dogs side but some breeds the handler stands face on to the dogs head.

No Rhodach it just mean that if you free stand the dog it is allowed to just stop with it's legs in a natural position so the judge can see if the legs are placed correctly and the topline is right, that is to free stand in other word apart from training (and titbits) the handler has no input in how the dog is presented in the stand.

Personally I think most dogs do a better job than handlers and you do see many dogs with their legs in unnatural positions and the heads held so high the nose is the highest part of the dog. Sure it is me but I have to ask handlers who stack to free stand after they have moved the dog as I am unable to assess the dog when it is stacked by the handler as many look off balance and uncomfortable. Mind you IMO even some of those who free stand encourage the dog to hold it's head too high and that makes the neck look stuffy and the angle where the neck joins the withers incorrect.

> even some of those who free stand encourage the dog to hold it's head too high

or you have gannets, who are tit bit obsessed, who creep closer and closer until their heads are virtually in the obedience present position LOL and if you don't have the good stuff down goes the nose hoovering the ground even when moving at speed, LOL

So even freestanding isn't easy.

or you have gannets, who are tit bit obsessed, who creep closer and closer until their heads are virtually in the obedience present position

Ah! then you throw it and they will soon learn to keep their distance, not in the ring only when training. Think it best not to give bait when stood but if you use it to keep their attention then don't give it until they are away from you even if it is you who has to step back.

if you use it to keep their attention then don't give it until they are away from you even if it is you who has to step back.

All ours are taught the command "get back" and only get the treat when away from us. The advantage then is the treat can be used to pull the head forward if needs be as otherwise so many will put it back to look up and look awful.

I usually hold my hands low and train wait, same thing different name, using look at me when I want the expectant look about the head.

he he, both Jozi and Inka will bark for the bait, and I end up having to give the bait (to shut them up)or remember to bring the squirt bottle in the ring with me, and threaten with rain ;)

It's my own fault of course as when a judge is taking time deliberating I end up trickle feeding the bait to keep them in position as they keep altering position until I pay out.  They offer an alternative position until they get the treat.

Yes that is one of the problems I had when I first started training with the clicker they just keep trying something else so I added a word clue PDQ.

Mine would offer a whole repertoire of positions including SIT!!!!!! which I never taught her. So I had to go right back to basics and be EXTRA quick with timing the treat for the correct position. also had to trickle feed the bait when in the challenge as she always seemed to move more when the stakes were higher! She is 2, 1/2 now and is only just getting it but then she will always be a bubbly girl, so statuesque she will never be!
Paula 

> also had to trickle feed the bait when in the challenge as she always seemed to move more when the stakes were higher!

That's exactly it they know how to work us ;)

Mine get bored if asked to stack for too long and the bum gradually sinks, after all it doesn't have far to go, a long time show person told me to poke the boys in the willy[not shown a bitch yet], now I just keep my thumb face up under their undercarriage and they go up when they come in contact with it.

Whilst the rest of the class are being examined I am not too strict about maintaining the stack but don't let them wander about or stretch out on their side as I have seen some handlers let them do and as soon as the last dog is going through its paces on the floor I get him more alert and interested in what is going to happen next.

From that point of view it is easier with a free stood floor dog as if they fidget you just turn them round and re-stand.

ok, when I attempt to stand my pup he goes straight into a sit............ help!

Keep any bait at the pups eye level. They are horizontal animals and if you raise their head... its more comfortable to sit to look up.

As soon as i touch a hind leg, he sits! His sits are very steady... maybe he'd prefer to do obedience ;) Argh!

LOL pups are great at the sit until you want them to.

Don't rush it, offer the hand with the titbit concealed in it at the level of his nose - touch the dogs back (the croup) and then give the treat if he stands more of less still and does not sit. Do just that for a few days then move the hand to the side and touch just above the thigh on the hip do that for a few days and if he starts sitting then go back to touching the back. Then the thigh, then the knee then start on the other side going through it all again but don't rush, it may well only take a couple of sessions to get what you want but if you move on and he starts to move or sit go back and start again.

Sitting, hold the titbit low and step back, say stand and give the titbit. (What ever you do don't try getting him to sit by pushing on his back to get a sit lift the treat hand up and forward over his nose, he will sit say the word sit and give to treat. He will soon learn the difference between sit and stand.

EDIT to say don't move to the next stage until you are getting a good result with the exercise you are working on, if you can tell him to stand and touch his croup then move on to the hip when that is firm move onto the thigh. Do no more than 10 min at a time and try to finish on success but anyway finish on a game of a cuddle.

I would kneel beside him and with your righthand, feed him the titbit and with your left hand you can run it over his back and down the leg.  If he is still sitting, go down his tum and touch the inside of his leg(with your arm coming through under his tum still).  If your arm is there, he still can't sit.  I wouldn't be concerned where his legs are at the minute, so long as he is standing up! 
As someone said, you need to get him to master the free stand first.  Some of the states dogs end up at the end of moving round the ring cos they haven't been taught how to freestand, is really not great.
Try the blocks for stacking(small piles of small books work too).  They work brill but I always think they are cruel so I only used them in the very early days to get the message through and only for really short times.
Another tip re treating - I stack then use the command 'wait'.  This is for him to stay in that position.  I then stand and put the treat to my mouth(gross) and that will lift his head naturally.  After a couple of mins, I give the treat and repeat.  This only works after some experience in the ring and obviously with maturity.  Puppies are supposed to be idiots in the ring.  What would we do if we didn't have puppy classes to giggle at?lol
Also, he's not had his lanky legs long.  Don't expect too much or you'll make him a robot showdog.  No fun for either of you.

Free stand has nothing to do with natural positioning. It is hard work of the handler to make dog stand correctly and look "au naturell" without  corrections. It is far more difficult than stacking.
I teach my dogs both stacking and free stand. Clicker is your friend.

Free stand has nothing to do with natural positioning.

Don't understand that statement if it is a free stand it will be a natural position.

If a dog is being free stood it will walk into a natural stand you may wish it to tidy up a bit but surely the idea is to finish with a dog standing naturally, if at the same time tidy. If I am looking at a dog and it looks uncomfortable or unbalanced I will ask the handler to walk it forward a few paces or turn it round and stop, sometimes there may be a leg out of line but that will be corrected by the handler by word of mouth or pushing the dog back or easing it forward but that is still a position that is natural to the dog and if it is not I will ask the dog be moved again.

Thanks for all these wonderful tips guys, I have never trained a pup for the ring before. My adults were adults by the time they first entered the ring which came with it's own problems....but loads of it's own benefits LOL!!

How about table breeds?

Table dogs are all stacked you would need much bigger tables to walk them into a free stand, however when they are moved the judge may well ask you to free stand.

Not seen anyone in our breed being asked to free stand, have seen the judge re stack a dachsie on the table and then gave it first place which surprised me as getting the table technique right is all part of the handling skills.

If you have minis I am not surprised - but if the judge asks for a free stand is up to them, some may be happy just to look at a dog that has been 'arranged', me I like to see what it can do for itself but would be hard pushed with a mini and that is why I would never accept an appointment to judge them.

surprised me as getting the table technique right is all part of the handling skills.

Judges are not judging handling skills (except in handling classes) they (in most cases) are judging the dog/hound despite the efforts of the handler. The reason they re-stack is I think because they like to see a dog set up as they like and not as the handler may place it, it is so easy to distort the conformation particularly the topline if the exhibit is stacked incorrectly.

Oh, LIKE, LIKE, LIKE!!!!Nova, so well said.

I stacked my breeds and even though one of them was a small, table breed, I still had to walk them into a free-stand at the end of moving them on their own.  Nova said it so well, so the judge can see the 'natural' stance of the dog without handler manipulation.  It's very easy to hide a multitude of sins while stacking, not so easy on the move or natural stance.  This is why you practice the 'natural' stance too. lol.  A great bit of bait at the end of moving can manipulate that 'natural' stance too but takes practice at home.

I find the very skilled will do their dog a favour when they stack it but most so distort the exhibit they do it no favour at all it is like judging a class of the malformed. Think the best way is to teach a free stand and then if you must just move a foot but make sure it is the misplaced foot not the correct one, dogs are not rocking-horses.

You are so right.  And making me miss my boy so much:(  I loved showing him.  He had such a fabulous natural shape and was such a great showman that I would only need to lean my knee into either side of him and he would correct whatever leg himself! What a boy!

oh gosh listening to you guys I have so much to learn :) Some really good helpful stuff  here

Mainly freestand even my Pomeranian on the table, though of course this is dependant on the size but most of the time the tables are plenty big enough for him to walk and turn round and freestand. 

That is true in some cases but if not most of the time if you lift the front legs off the table with your hand under the chest and then lower back to the surface the legs will fall in the correct place but the rear is more difficult particularly on dogs with long spines, placing may be the only way but most breeds look best with the feet more or less under the hip joint not pulled back as so many do nor in front of the hip as this gives a horrid topline.

As soon as i touch a hind leg, he sits!

I'm sure most pups go through this stage.The advice I've received from one of the most successful handlers in this country is not to worry about or try to position the hind legs UNTIL the pup is rock steady on his/her front feet--so that could be a few weeks away yet. You could try standing or stacking the pup on a table to start with (always on a lead of course, you can hang the lead around the back of your neck to keep it out of the way), and build up from just a few seconds at first. Don't keep the pup in position till he/she gets bored, take him/her off the table just before you sense the 'falling apart' bit. I don't know how old your puppy is, but don't overdo it. A minute a couple of times a day is plenty. And don't forget to have fun!

What you say Jay15 is good advice but in this case I would keep the pup on the floor it is will be approaching 3 feet tall.

I was told the same thing Jay, work on the front and then when happy start on the back. One tip when moving to the back is keeping hands on the dogs back with hands and moving it down the leg, so they know where your hand is. I'm at fault for doing this and just grab the back legs to move them and it takes the dogs by surprise and can undo all the work at the front!! Lol

in this case I would keep the pup on the floor it is will be approaching 3 feet tall.

How old is this puppy :-)??? I'm not recommending the use of a table for anything but its early start--once the puppy has the idea of what's required he can go on the floor.

It's a 4-month greyhound - you'd need to stand it on the dining table!

One tip when moving to the back is keeping hands on the dogs back with hands and moving it down the leg, so they know where your hand is.

That sounds good. My mentor also recommends keeping the left hand just resting on the shoulders so that the pup doesn't pull backwards.

It makes you realise just how good some handlers are--what you see is so practised and seamless. In doing it yourself getting these actions in fluent order is really hard even when the theory is lodged in your head--at least that's my experience so far...

Think a lot of people try to rush it and you only cause confusion, most well made dogs will stand almost true from the walk so it is a matter of getting them to accept your moving a foot or telling them to. Even when the dog is trained keep the rearranging to the minimum because if you make the dog feel unbalanced the first thing he will do it to move one of the other feet to compensate.

I've noticed part of the problem with causing the dog to feel unbalanced is that a lot of people don't know exactly where THEIR dog's feet should go. Even a minor structural issue can sometimes cause the dog to be off-balance if the handler puts the feet in the exact place called for by the breed standard.

In terms of training my puppies to stand, I teach the "stand" command from day one, but I also start by teaching them to free-stand in class. I like to turn it into a game, getting the puppy to play with me then walk into a freestack at random intervals for a reward.
The most important thing to me is to get the puppy standing and let them have fun in the ring rather than torturing them with hand-stacking while they're trying to wiggle all over the place. 99% of my training is actually done at home. At random times during the day I grab a few treats and start doing things like playing with paws, moving feet, checking teeth, and basically getting the puppy used to being touched in every possible area. That solves the problem of the dog trying to sit down on you when you try to move the rear... usually by the time mine are old enough for ringcraft they couldn't care less about what I'm doing.

The trick of running the hand over the dog's back can actually work well or completely backfire on you. Some dogs do like the warning that you're going to touch their feet, others that still aren't used to having their rear touched will take it as a queue to sit down before you even hit the rear foot. If a bigger dog does that to me, I will often kneel down and go for the foot from underneath. Sliding the foot into position rather than picking it up keeps the dog more stable and gives them less of an opportunity to decide to sit down on you. Plus, if they do, your hand is already underneath them... just use it to make them stand back up.