The number of open shows that schedule classes for my breed are as rare as hen's teeth which means that when we have youngsters to bring on we have to enter AVNSC classes at this level and hope that the judge at least has an interest in the breed and more importantly approaches them sympathetically ( mine is a super sensitive breed that can so easily be ruined by harsh handling ). Either that or skip Open show level all together and only do Champ shows which is fine for more experienced exhibitors but a bit daunting for someone new to showing with their first pup. The lack of breed classes at Open level also means that exhibitors show far less  and some have simply given up showing altogether in favour of other doggy activities or use companion shows as their training ground - which after all are very similar to an AVNSC class ! - our aspiring new judges now find it almost impossible to get the required experience or number of dogs and classes under their belt at Open shows in order to progress to the A list  to award CC's which means exhibiting under the same already established judges every year .

At my local main venue ( Newark ) last weekend  I looked at 12  general Open show schedules - not a single one of them scheduled my breed !! - if this is representative of most numerically small breeds than I truly despair for the future - come on Show secretary's - think outside the box and give less well known breeds a fighting chance !

Yvonne

Do wonder if it would not be possible to have AV BS classes, at least you should get a judge who understands although they may have a preference for a particular breed. Perhaps the breed clubs should get together and see if they can get a few shows to classify some classes for AV BS if, of course, the KC will allow.

Mind you in the AV Pastoral the judge should have an understanding of the breed perhaps you should not enter general breed AV classes. You should not get a judge at Championship level what has judged the breed less than 18 months ago, in other words you should not get them every year and indeed in most cases not every second year either.

I think the whole judges training being primarily by judging Open shows needs to change. 

Fewer and fewer of us are willing to pay good money to basically train judges, we may support those aspiring Breed specialists we know who have a genuine interest, but not many of those who will be totally unknown to us.

Show societies really do need to print CV's for their judges at this level if they expect any support for just A N Other name judge.

I would prefer the student judge system as in other countries.

It would be quite easy for a student judge to go over each dog after the judge had seen it (they would have seen it moved when the judge moved it), and would be doing hands on of the last exhibit while the judge did hands on for the next.

The student then could do their own notes and placings in a book to then discuss with the judge.

The student would get their hands on a Representative sample of dogs, without the inherent issues of dogs being provided and dissected at training days, where of course it is hard to get really top class volunteer dogs for this as it may negatively affect their continuing show careers to point out every failing, so you tend to get veterans, also rans and unfinished youngsters for evaluation.

Given the blow dealt to the breed in the early 90's when all four varieties were 'lumped' together and the subsequent decimation in numbers as breeders gave up - plus the fight we had to reinstate classification for our separate varieties,  I cannot see any exhibitor/owner/breeder supporting AV BSD classes !!

I'm sure mine is not the only breed that's rarely scheduled now and that leaves a big problem for new exhibitors and judges - where can they gain their experience if not at Open shows ? ...I'm fortunate in that I have been in the breed long enough to have judged when classes at Open shows were plentiful and have been able to climb the judging ladder and be passed to give CC's- but what about others after my generation ? - some younger exhibitors are breeding and showing quality dogs and could offer much in the future -  we MUST support them and those just starting out not simply rely on the dwindling pool of 'old timers'  many of whom no longer  breed or exhibit - or the same old all rounders who see the breed as just another notch on their bed post !

Yvonne

Yours is not the only breed but if you want judges that have an interest in the breed perhaps some compromise is needed. A show could classify an open class for each of the breeds under the same judge but then you would complain that was not fair as some breeds have more members than others

To get onto a clubs breed B list you do in most cases need to have at least shown an interest and attended a breed seminar but it has become the habit of late for judges when asked to judge a breed they do specialise in to ask what else they can do, some will be given the breeds they ask for other will be given anything available but if you say no they will not make the journey for just one breed.

> I'm sure mine is not the only breed that's rarely scheduled now and that leaves a big problem for new exhibitors and judges - where can they gain their experience if not at Open shows ? ...

In my very numerically small breed (average registrations in the last 5 years are no more than 50) breed classes at championship shows without CC's have stood up very well, being better in several cases over the last three years than some shows with CC's.

This must point to the fact that general Open shows generally do not provide the exhibitor with the facilities or whatever they would like, as even without CC's the entry fees are quite high.

Some people complain about benching and would like to see it go, but as an exhibitor who likes to show more than one dog one reason I prefer champ shows is the benching and not having to find space or the inconvenience of having to lug around crates for the dogs.  I would imagine those who take the kitchen sink to shows with trolleys, grooming tables etc, also find space an issue at most Open show venues.

Another issue is showing surface, anyone with medium or larger breeds surely like me must hate showing on often inadequate matting on slippery floors.  The often cramped conditions in the halls meaning the dogs get no rest, and the constant hum and  noise can be unpleasant.  There is usually a good selection of trade stands at champ shows, and of course the vital thing a decent level of competition and hopefully a competent judge fully conversant with the breed standard.

Open shows cannot raise entry fees in order to offer better/bigger facilities, as there is no real incentive for people to enter if the cost goes up.  It's a catch 22. 

Show societies can't offer more classes, as the KC require a minimum per class entry, so empty classes eat into this.

Often in a top heavy breed like mine the only available class for all your dogs is Open, and your not going to drive all that way for one dog and one class, to maybe have a chance in a group where often only the fashionable breeds get placed, by unsure judges who may only be doing groups as they give CC's in their own breed.

Maybe there are too many shows for to few exhibitors.  Do people still/really go to shows every weekend?  Do they really want to?

My ideal is a champ show a month and in the past an Open show in between, now finances force me to just the show a month (rarely two), but in the height of the show season this means choosing between shows if you can't afford both, where in the past I would have done all the champ shows within my catchment area (about 120 miles one way).

Perhaps general Open shows not connected to another interesting event should concentrate their shows in the period when there are no general champ shows, so basically November, most of December and January, February and March, and have breed club Open shows in the other months when there are big general shows available.

In my very numerically small breed (average registrations in the last 5 years are no more than 50) breed classes at championship shows without CC's have stood up very well, being better in several cases over the last three years than some shows with CC's.

But is that only because there is no alternative at open show level ? - the cost of entering non CC classes at Champ shows and the increase in fuel costs to attend them as they are generally much further away than your average local Open show must put many potential exhibitors off - In my opinion the Kc should drop the minimum per class entry requirement, encourage a more diverse range of breeds scheduled at this level  and  and state that shows must use breed club's C and B judging lists rather than give  many breeds  to one single judge - the show I went to last weekend had one poor judge doing almost all the pastoral breeds plus AVNSC Pastoral, AV Pastoral and the Pastoral Group - she started at 9.30 and worked right through till late in the afternoon -  a stupid situation when there are so many up and coming new judges needing the experience

Yvonne

My local open shows are an hour away, at same venue as some of the champ shows in one direction, and at a large Agricultural showground the other (the ones at leisure centres are just too cramped).  So no the fuel costs are the same.

Societies can't afford the cost of more judges, and the size of venues means a lot of hanging around waiting for rings, which with more classes would be worse.

Perhaps they should schedule each group to follow another instead of running concurrently?  So people knew that their group would be AM or PM, solve the crowding problem somewhat as only the group winners from the morning groups would need to stay on.

The few people who stay for the whole show would do so anyway.

A small venue could even have three sets of groups say two groups at 9 - 12, another two 12 - 2, and the third lot 2 - 4pm, and BIS at 4.30 - 5pm?.

I so know the problem, and like you I always try my best to support the breed classes as you know (when possible -of course there will always be times when you simply cannot make certain dates -last weekend for instance I had to be elsewhere -choosing my new pup), and yet they still get taken off. There is no way on earth I will show AVNSC or AV as judges just don't even seem to see Belgians so it is a total waste of time, plus of course if the dog isn't rock solid you can do untold damage with a non specialist judge.  Yet showing at championship shows without tickets costs a fortune in comparison plus have the added disadvantage of being a much longer day. An Open show at Newark for us can cost just around £20 for the day with entries (2-3 dogs) and petrol included.

It seems to be happening to a lot of breeds -believe it or not, I have even seen schedules with neither Belgian nor Papillon classes!!! Those shows certainly won't get an entry from me.

Adding insult to injury -no Malinois classes at Boston for 2013! So we even lose them at champshows.

Our breed club for the rarer one I own is sponsoring some open shows in order to get breed classes, however I am still personally a fan of champ shows and to be honest would rather pay more money once a month to show than multiple smaller amounts and it be a waste of time.

The venues at 2 open shows this year I have tried out (1 avnsc, 1 breed class at general open) have been in a horse manage and as much as I like horses I really hate rings being on rubbish surfaces, one poor fella fell over and got a face full of it, not pleasant.  As much as I like to help get the breed known by public and judges I won't ever go to either of those venues again.

I actually find the environment and judges at champ shows to be better to put a new pup under, new dogs for me always attend a champ before an open, the proximity and noise of an open can be very overwhelming, champ shows are generally more spaced out so most just seem to ease into it better.  I think the cramped and poor sites for opens will be the shows downfall. And no one ever seems to stick around for the varieties these days, 19 entered for one just gone in a puppy variety and 2 including me showed up and that's with prize money! People seem very impatient these days, not the spirit I am used to. (Been out the ring for 4 years until this year, opens have gone really down hill)

On the flip side even with breed classes at open it will be amazing to see a more than 2 dogs, people only have a certain budget and they chase tickets, has always been that way in a lot of breeds but think it will go more and more that way. 

Crystal Palace open show in Nov has classes for Groen's, Mali's and Tervs.. Horley had the same this last weekend too. Horley have got Groen's and Tervs for their feb show.
Camberley have Groen's and Terv classes too.
Maybe come live down south? Lol

This is typical, of champshows as well. For Malis at least -they put classes on in areas where NO exhibitors live!! Then wonder why nobody turns up, or champshows with tickets get 3 to 10 entries only.........

Maybe asking your breed club to sponsor breed classes at open shows is the way forward--that way they undertake to provide a judge who is a breed specialist.

I am a secretary of an open show and we do four groups between 10am-1pm and three groups between 1pm-3.30pm so at least people can see what time of the day to be there plus they will not be spending all day-unless of course they win their group.

Judges are not that hard to get but it is the right judges for breeds.

I have gone off the judges lists and also appointed an allrounder for the breeds and looking back at the spread sheet there appears no difference in dog entries.  This could apply to just the show I am secretary off. I can not make a comment on other societies.

I have had judges that will not come 40 miles unless they can have at least 5 breeds-or breeds of there choice. I have no objection to anyone asking if they can do that if it is the right choice.

Also in this day and age judges are cutting back on their judging appointments if they are offered a breed several hundred miles away.

I have had one judge cancel the offer(no contract sent) over the phone as it to far for a few dogs-they were 25 miles from venue.

I have no idea what the answer is. We all as officers try to find a variety of judges to attract the entries, the people who come to the shows to enter their dogs are the most important to me as without them no show. They should be first and foremost and the club should try to get judges that have an active part in the breed. I know not that is not easy but there are many people out there can help clubs to find judges.

There are many societies being de-registered and it is sad but lack of committee,venue costs incresaing , entries falling I dare say a few more will go .