Hi all :)
My girl has come into season again after missing last time and I would like some opinions please as my mentor, the stud owner and vet all seem to have different ones!  This might be a bit long, but I would really appreciate some advice.

This post: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/136591.html explained what happened last time but in summary
she was progesterone tested with Idexx on (blood taken 8.30 am Monday morning) day 10 which came back the next morning as 6.4nmol not yet ovulated retest two days.

Tested again day 12 (blood taken 8.30 am Wednesday morning) which came back at the next morning at 8.6 nmol still not ovulated retest in two days ie the Friday.

She had been trying to pounce on my other two dogs from day 10, but on day 12 she was flagging and also standing, however the blood tests had showed she was not ready as she was still on 8.6nmol. She started not to flag quite so much on the Thursday and as Idexx had said she should be, she was retested on the Friday, day 14 but this time they could only fit me in at 5pm so quite late in the day, and therefore quite a long time between 8.30am Wed and 5pm Friday.  By the Friday she had stopped flagging and was quite quiet so even though the blood tests results had shown not ovulated on the Wed, I was a bit worried by her behaviour.  

I  just took her to the Stud dog (B) on the Saturday first thing anyway (day 15) as I was expecting the result to be spot on and she refused to mate. She was growling and snarling and sitting down, she had to be muzzled and this is my quiet, well mannered gentle girl!  I put her back in the car and as I did so, I had a call from the vets, the results were showing that when the blood was taken the evening before, she was at 28.8nmol, ovulated and mate between 1 and 3 days.  So everything in theory should have been fine, except she wouldnt stand and was really anti being mated.

After she refused to mate on the Saturday, after some indepth discussion, it was decided to try a different dog (D) on the sunday (day 16), actually my first choice's son, so same lines, health tests, who is also a well known FTCH and same stud owner.  They mated within minutes and had a 25 minute tie.  Only one mating offered, which is standard for working kennels.  However this was 10pm at night due to the stud being in competition all day, but according to the blood test results from the Friday (mate between 1 and 3 days) she should have been okay.

However she missed, on the scan at day 32 post mating the vet hospital said that it didnt even look as if there had been any changes at all.

So she came into season again on Saturday, if she was yours what would you do?  To add to complications, the dog that she eventually mated with (D) late on the Sunday is out of the country, so it looks like I am back to my first option (B), the one she flatly refused to mate with on the Saturday.  I cannot afford to lose my free return mating with this line as its perfect for my girl.  The Stud dog has suggested that I blood test again this time around however her behaviour faded before the blood tests showed that it was the right time.  The Stud dog owner has also said that with Idexx tests its unecessary to have two matings due to the accuracy of the tests? Ps. Both my first choice and second choice stud dogs are experienced and apparently they have only had two girls miss, mine being one of them :S

Your opinions and experience please :)

Just really want this to work.  (Just in case anyone asks, they are fully health tested with every required and suggested tests between them and some as I wanted to make sure this was all exactly right).

As we all know there is no 100% conception rate even with our canines (lets face it we cycle every month yet rarely conceive at first try).

The first attempt at mating may have been too early fro that bitch as not all bitches will mate for prolonged periods, some only for a day or two when the eggs are ripe, which is when you mated her to the second dog.

Now the dog may have been overheated or off his game from working that day, who knows.

I would certainly just do as before.  Your bitch is likely to be less prissy and likely allow mating a bit sooner assuming the male will mate her before the eggs are ripe, as many experienced males in our breed won't mate a bitch until spot on, no matter how they flirt. :)

Must admit I prefer the old way of mating the bitch daily (if she is staying with the stud) or alternate days until she signals that she has gone over.

Behaviour with dogs she knows and lives with may be very different to that shown to a stud from outside. My girls flirt n flag each other long before they are ready for mating and maiden bitches can often get a bit anxious and grumpy even when ready. A bit of the body says one thing and their heads say oh not sure about this !!! As a rule I test and only travel to stud on optimum day, personally would be happy with one mating in such circumstances.

Like Barbara, I allow daily mating if a bitch is receptive.  I have bitches stay for my boys - is there any chance of the stud dog owner boarding your bitch?

I tried the boarding my bitch at her breeders where the stud dog was and although happy when I was still around, allowed her breeder to bath her as she had vomited and wee'd on the journey over, her mood changed drastically when she realised I was no longer there, she was normally very placid and easy going,she wouldn't let anyone near her, human or dog and I went and fetched her a few days later when I had finished my night shifts for the week by which time she had gone over as this was the bitch who ovulated early and had ovulated the day I dropped her off, she had been mated twice in the past with me present so was used to the procedure and missed.

With my other bitch I mated her according to how she was acting on days 12 and 14 and got pups each time.

There are 2 types of blood tests would it be worth trying the other type this time and get the result back the same day?

I hope you have better luck this time, I know all too well getting your hopes built up and getting no pups.

See, technically the sperm would still be viable up to 5 days after the mating so if you HAD taken her to the first stud on the days she was flagging, she COULD still have concieved from those matings going on the day she ovulated.  I would take this bitch to the stud when she wants and mate her every second day till she stops.  I'm not a great believer in the testing unless you are going a great distance(and even then, I prefer instinct and a good stud dog at home!!lol)

> I'm not a great believer in the testing unless you are going a great distance(and even then, I prefer instinct and a good stud dog at home!!lol)

Have to agree. 

On the two occasions where huge distances were involved travelling abroad premate testing would have been of no use as the flights had to be booked the moment the bitch came in season as the airlines normally require 10 - 14 days notice. 

On both occasions we were going with a maiden bitch (first time the bitch had missed to an older inexperienced male the season before).  I opted to travel on day 12 in both cases, as my bitches tend to be mated most often at day 15+.

The only time I used blood testing was on a bitch who flatly refused to stand, as I was not prepared to force a bitch who was no ready.  She had plenty of libido but would have preferred the male role.  We had to resort to fun and games to persuade her to stand, and for her first litter only managed one mating, and with the stud staying with em from early on, manged two with a happier bitch next time (in between the two litters she had refused to stand for mating again). 

Interestingly she stood no problem for an older imported stud for her last litter while I was away in Finland getting her daughter mated (I had counted on one of them missing, but they both whelped).

Similar situation with my US trip, assumed bitch might not play ball, get pregnant, so had mated her half sister a few weeks before the trip, both got pregnant even though the sister had missed last time.

Sometimes despite everything being correct re timing bitches simply miss. we can only maximise the chance of conception not guarantee it.

I think most of my bitches have missed at some point, but luckily never twice in a row.  I have usually gone for a different stud, but also for the same as they missed to and got pups.

If you can take her earlier in her season to have a meet and greet friendly intro with stud dog, then when she's acting receptive take her. Even though this maybe earlier than when she is actually receptive as she knows your dogs. Then every 48 hours after this, if its a distance I'd book some time off and stay in a bnb nearby. I like the dogs to know best, natures way.

>I prefer instinct and a good stud dog at home!!

This is what has always worked for me when I needed to travel some distance.  My most experienced boy will inhale a bitch, and walk away rather than waste his time if she's not ready.  He has got it right for me every time I have had a long way to travel, and I admit that I find this so much easier.

Not so easy for those of us with no males in the house !! I will have to go by idexx's reading am I am going abroad with a maiden bitch....so I hope they get it right.
Aileen

Aileen it's a shame you can't borrow one of my boys.  They might look ridiculous next to huge dogs, but one of my boys fell in love with a St Bernard bitch at ringcraft, so I'm sure he'd get it right for you!  :-)  :-)

Thank you all for your help :) very much appreciated.  Sadly I have no stud dog in the house, just a neutered rescue lurcher and a neutered Cavalier, however every season my girl tends to make a beeline for my Cavvie (poor boy lol) at around day 10 onwards. Ive documented her behaviour/signs daily every season she has had since her first one (shes now on her fifth season) so fortunately they seem to be of roughly the same pattern of behaviour so far.

The stud dog owner (him and his Dad have over 30 years experience in the breed) have said that she will probably be less anti this time round as she will know what is expected of her.  It is also possible that by 10pm after a full days field trial that the stud dog was just cream crackered too.  Wasnt ideal but was the best option at the time.

There is an option of the stud dog owner boarding my girl, however she is an indoor dog and they only have outdoor kennels.  As part of her lines and nature she has got quite a sensitive streak and would probably not eat let alone mate so a little like Rhodach's girl, might do more harm than good leaving her.  Its within driving distance so might be better for her, to keep her with me.

I think what I will do this time, is still idexx test as I did last time, but be really guided by her behaviour as well, much more than I did before.  I think I was just almost ignoring her behaviour with my lot due to the test results not being quite right. However when the test results were right then she didnt want to. I will also try and get two matings as even though they said that we shouldnt need them and would probably be unecessary, Id rather cover a few more days tbh.

Just one last question, I know that Idexx tests are a quantative test and give you a number so you know exactly where you are. However the down side of that is that you have to wait until the next day.  Are the inhouse ones, the premate tests where you get the colour change, deemed so inaccurate as to not to bother with those.  Advantage is results the same day.

Thank you again.

The in house test kits give a range based on colour changes, they are not as accurate but can be good enough when your planning a natural mating where you have greater margins to work with.

It might also be worth asking your vet if the lab that does his routine blood work can offer a same day service for serum progesterone test, they will  need a radio assey machine. I have mine done at local vet, and it is sent to North West Labs ( based in blackpool) on courier in the morning and I have result by teatime same day.  If your vet can arrange this service the blood needs to be spun down and serum sent for analysis.

Hallo. I have had the same problem. Bitch breed on the " right " days according to bloodtests. reseault: no pups.
The generell rule is that bitches  ovulate around 15 nml or 5 ng but remember this is just guidelines. They can ovulate at both lower and higher progesteronvalues.
The next time My girl was breed early in season  at 3,6 ng and became pregnant. She gave birth exactly 63 days later.

Many good luck wishes this time!!!

Thats encouraging mrsnewfie !! is this true that some bitches ovulate at lower levels??
Aileen

The numbers are a guide and for Ccurate interpretation you need sequential tests to sport landmark changes :

Progesterone concentration begins to increase prior to ovulation in the bitch due to luteinization of small follicles on the ovaries.  An indicator that ovulation is impending is the progesterone surge. This surge occurs when progesterone concentrations are around 2 ng/ml (or 6.2 nmol/l) or when the baseline progesterone concentration doubles.  In many bitches, ovulation will occur 36 - 48 hours after the progesterone surge.  Progesterone concentrations rise to between 4 and 10 ng/ml at the time of ovulation (12.6 and 31.4 nmol/l). Before ovulation, progesterone rises slowly, while after ovulation progesterone rises rapidly.  A jump of at least 3 - 4 ng/ml (9.14- 12.56 nmol/l) in a 24 hour period, after progesterone concentrations reach 4 ng/ml, is confirmatory of ovulation.  Some bitches may jump as much as 8 - 10 ng/ml in a 24 hour period after ovulation has occurred.  Some bitches will stall between the progesterone surge and ovulation having values between 2.5 and 4.0 ng/ml (7.8 and 12.5 nmol/l) for several days. 

The key thing with quantive give testing is plot the pattern. Also re behaviour some bitches are far more receptive and flirty on the edge of ovulation or on day of ovulation more so than at prime fertility. For a natural mating with a fertile stud this should not present problems as semen can live for up to 7 days.

I have always found (I have no males) that the bitches will stand for each other at least two to three days before an experienced male will mate with them, so you can't really be guided by her reaction to dogs that can't do the business.

Just an update to this.  My girl is currently only on day 7, for the last couple of days shes been persuing one of my dogs (who wont respond) however my lurcher has become increasingly interested in her, to the point today where Ive had to keep them seperated as he literally wont stop humping her.  24 hours ago she was rejecting all his advances, yet today she is standing there, flagging and letting him do it.  Hence them having to be seperated.  He is neutered but only just slightly bigger than her so dont want to wind either of them up and I know that even neutered dogs can tie.

Just going on her behaviour today Ive had her blood tested even though she is on day 7.  My lovely tame vet at my local Veterinary Hospital has started to use a new local lab that does the same test as IDEXX however on a same day service and its some £12 cheaper!  So the blood was collected this morning and has come back tonight at 8.6nmol. She is going to be retested tomorrow but it looks like she is moving quickly this time.

This season seems to be very different to the last one where she missed.  She has bled a lot heavier, seems much more insistent going after one of my dogs and is certainly a lot more flirty and definately a lot earlier.   Going  by my notes last season where she missed, she was 8.6nmol on day 12 and flagging, the next day she was quieter and then by day 14 when I retested her last time she was almost back to normal but thats when the bloods showed that she had ovulated but she refused to tie.

So I think if the blood test results are higher and shes still flagging we might go tomorrow and go for another mating on Monday.  I think she's going to be a girl that doesnt get the straw coloured discharge, doesnt flag or stand very well after she has ovulated and her hormones rise really quickly.  :rolleyes: she lives with me, she was never going to be conventional lol

> I think she's going to be a girl that doesnt get the straw coloured discharge, doesnt flag

That's most of my girls if they are maiden.  Only ever ahd tarty older bitches flag at al.

>I think she's going to be a girl that doesnt get the straw coloured discharge,

I have never, ever owned a bitch that had straw coloured discharge.  Not ever.  I guess I have never owned one that read the book.

Ah thats really reassuring, thank you, I dont expect anything about her will be conventional, so at least if Im prepared for her not to be 'text book' then I wont get surprised.  Good job I have a good mentor lol

Ah I don't know where the books get this flagging , straw discharge and mate day 10 - 12 from, mine never go with any of that, and the only clue I have for mating is their acceptance, of the male and his willingness to mate her.

I have found with bitches showing mating behaviour with the other girls at home that they do this at least two days before a male will mate them, or they will allow a male to mate them.

This is the stage I would take them to meet the male, but not expect a mating yet.  I would always prefer to have the pair under the same roof through the likely mating period, or to travel each day or alternate days.

As I said only resorted to blood testing once when a bitch flatly refused mating the previous season, and the next one would bring whelping to four years of age, so time starting to be an issue.

We must be very lucky in our breed as studs don't get much work (a popular sire would be one that had sired more than 6 litters in his life) so stud dog owners do try to bend over backwards and be accommodating to effect a mating with a view to helping our numerically small breed move forward.

Could you have missed some early days of this season? One of my girls ovulated on day 7/8 and would be flagging to my male from day 6, he wasn't interested, I just thought she was a trollop before realising she was an early ovulator.

No 2 bitches are the same and they can vary from season to season.